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In need of a new freighter tier.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#41 - 2012-11-25 17:44:51 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
you guys don't know how scanning and killmail work now, do you?
Yes we do. If you say that you don't double-wrap, then that's fine, but there is nothing in the killmail to suggest that this is what happened.

Quote:
Tippia: it was around 400m at the time of trit at 3 isk pu. but that didn't stay long, anyway the game was almost dead at that time, thanks to WIS.
Only for about three years or so, so yeah, quite a long period. And the point remains: it's more expensive to gank now since ships are more expensive due to increases in materials cost and the removal of suicide insurance. Hell, even without the insurance removal, it would almost be the same cost as during some periods in the past.
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#42 - 2012-11-25 19:08:30 UTC
why are you implying something hidden then?

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2012-11-25 19:30:56 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
why are you implying something hidden then?
I'm not. The killmail is.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#44 - 2012-11-25 20:54:58 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
I though this would come up.

we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. how low you want us to go?

I already said that not everyone can afford a scout. we should not have to get a scout. Freighter were made to be able to transport a whole lot of stuff. if anyone can gank them easely, what's the use?


Note also that the new bounty system will shift gank-profitability thresholds downwards. Common wisdom is that if you have under 1 billion ISK worth of stuff in your cargohold, you're as safe as you can be, but that's because the expected payout for ganking such a Freighter is 500 million ISK, due to a 50% chance of the cargo dropping, and it requiring a value of 500M gankaships to gank it.

But if the Freighter pilot has a bounty on his head, then up to 20% of that bounty is paid out for destroying his Freighter, which serves to lower the profatability threshold. Maybe to 800 million. 700 million. Or even lower, depending on how large the bounty is.

The current Freighter is fine as it is, it's a relatively cheap ship and it does what it does, but there really should be a T2 Freighter that costs more, has a slightly smaller cargo bay, and has a lot more EHP. Maybe via an Advanced Freigther skill that gives +5% to all shield or armour resists (depending on ship race) as well as +10% to shield or armour HP. And starting from a high HP value before the skill bonus.

The largest T1 Freighter can haul 981k m3 at max skill, so this new T2 Advanced Freighter should be able to haul something like 750k m3 at max skill. Going much lower than that would mean you might as well use an Orca.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#45 - 2012-11-25 21:03:46 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Mag's wrote:
The Orca can have a 80,761 m3 cargo hold, plus it's 40,000m3 corp hanger.

So it's cargo capacity is 120,761 m3, plus a 50k m3 Ore. So no, that isn't already in place. Blink


No, it's cargo capacity is 80,761m3 plus 40,000m3 plus 50,000m3. This distinction is important, because you cannot carry any item that is larger than 80,761m3.


The distinction is also important because having to juggle multiple different cargo holds each with its own properties and its own limitations on what they can contain, is a pain in the ass!
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#46 - 2012-11-25 22:40:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
why are you implying something hidden then?
I'm not. The killmail is.



where?

it shows the wrap and everything inside it that droped.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2012-11-25 23:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
where?

it shows the wrap and everything inside it that droped.
…or it shows the junk you had in your hold, among which was a double-wrap that they wanted to bet on.
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#48 - 2012-11-25 23:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Frog Rufen
Tippia wrote:
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
where?

it shows the wrap and everything inside it that droped.
…or it shows the junk you had in your hold, among which was a double-wrap that they wanted to bet on.



no.

the wrap you see is the wrap that contained all the items you see that droped with it.

a double wrap would have shown 2 wrap.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14365770

that is 3 courier contract double-wraped into 1.
if it would have been 2 double-wrap, they would have showed separatly. A double-wrap that drop always shows a minimum of 2 in the total.

as you can see, no items are showing.

so,

Contract with a wrap that didn't dropped : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15284635
Contract with a wrap that droped : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15284341
Contract with a double-wrap that droped : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14365770

also, since the last inventory change, the first layer of container is never shown. So, when they scan a freighter with a single wrap in it, it'll only show the items inside the freighter + the first layer of the wrap. if there's a container, or another wrap inside that, they will show, but they wont show what was inside that second layer of container.

get it? you seem a little slow, if you need more explaination, i'll be happy to provide them, with example, in game.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-11-25 23:31:32 UTC
So what you're saying is, you're complaining about some ROL guys using at a minimum 945m isk in hulls alone, let alone the T2 mods required, to gank what was a freighter which may or may not have been carrying cargo worth as little as 500m (no, I'm not going to go calculating each and every single item on there to verify the killboard's values are sane).

In short, a newbie ganking team used more ships than they needed, to gank something which won't even cover half of their investment, and this is worth whining about.

Welp, I guess we're due for a mining barge-style buff to freighters soon, then.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2012-11-25 23:35:01 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
the wrap you see is the wrap that contained all the items you see that droped with it.

[…]

also, since the last inventory change, the first layer of container is never shown.
…which leaves a fourth option to get confused by: wrap in container.

So no, at any point there is a wrap in a KM, there is ambiguity to what the gankers saw and what the full value of the haul actually is. You may say that you don't double-wrap or put X in Y, but the KM doesn't tell the full story and the wrap immediately hints at the gankers betting on a bit of luck. You are making assumptions about perfect information for all parties involved, and that's just foolish.

You may be standing still, but that's just how it is. I can't explain it any clearer to you.
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#51 - 2012-11-26 00:10:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
the wrap you see is the wrap that contained all the items you see that droped with it.

[…]

also, since the last inventory change, the first layer of container is never shown.
…which leaves a fourth option to get confused by: wrap in container.

So no, at any point there is a wrap in a KM, there is ambiguity to what the gankers saw and what the full value of the haul actually is. You may say that you don't double-wrap or put X in Y, but the KM doesn't tell the full story and the wrap immediately hints at the gankers betting on a bit of luck. You are making assumptions about perfect information for all parties involved, and that's just foolish.

You may be standing still, but that's just how it is. I can't explain it any clearer to you.


you cannot put a plastic wrap inside a container. the same way you cannot put a populated container inside another. the only way to do this, is with double-wraping via a courier contract, and i've shown you how they look on KM.

I'm not really sure where you get your information, but the KM cannot be clearer then that. there's no ambiguity, what you see on the KM is what the scanner see in game, except the FIRST WRAP.

so when the scanner scan one of our ship, he will see everything there is in the wrap, but not the wrap. What are you not understanding here?
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#52 - 2012-11-26 00:12:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Frog Rufen
Lord Zim wrote:
So what you're saying is, you're complaining about some ROL guys using at a minimum 945m isk in hulls alone, let alone the T2 mods required, to gank what was a freighter which may or may not have been carrying cargo worth as little as 500m (no, I'm not going to go calculating each and every single item on there to verify the killboard's values are sane).

In short, a newbie ganking team used more ships than they needed, to gank something which won't even cover half of their investment, and this is worth whining about.

Welp, I guess we're due for a mining barge-style buff to freighters soon, then.


I'm really not complaining about anything here. someone else brought the "keep your cargo value low and you wont be ganked"

I just think it would be nice to have a new tier of freighter. :)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-11-26 00:17:54 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
I'm really not complaining about anything here. someone else brought the "keep your cargo value low and you wont be ganked"

And you probably won't get ganked. There's no such thing as perfect assurances, until CCP makes it impossible to use any offensive modules in hisec.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
I just think it would be nice to have a new tier of freighter. :)

And to justify that you bring forth a killmail where, even though everything dropped, they presumably collectively lost 500m+ on the gank.

Next up: people can gank pods in thrashers without profiting from it, give us a new pod which takes more skill to fly but can survive a single thrasher. Roll

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2012-11-26 00:51:29 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
I'm not really sure where you get your information, but the KM cannot be clearer then that.
And again, the point you keep missing: the KM does not tell the story of what the ganker is seeing and what he's making his decisions on. Plastic wraps and containers introduce ambiguities that make people miss stuff, over-calculate stuff, or not calculate and all and just hope for the best.

Quote:
What are you not understanding here?
Where you're getting this idea of perfect information on the gankers' side that directs their decisions, and where you get the idea that the KM you presented is actually an case for changing freighters. All it shows is that you can trick gankers just fine, which means they have significant investments at risk in the game.

Quote:
I'm really not complaining about anything here. someone else brought the "keep your cargo value low and you wont be ganked"
…and that is still true. If what you say about your contents is actually true, then you just had the misfortune to come across incompetent gankers.
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#55 - 2012-11-26 01:42:40 UTC
Tippia, i'm just going to ignore you from now on. thank you.


Can we please, for the next few post, get back to the Original idea of this thread, which was : Could we get a new tier of freighters, maybe 2, specialised in some ways, or just better version, or whatever the consensus?

EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#56 - 2012-11-26 06:13:26 UTC
Jump freighters have more EHP, but hold less cargohold. Why can't they be the solution?

Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2012-11-26 07:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Red Frog Rufen wrote:

well, why would everyone in this game get new ships once in a while but us?

Other playstyles get new, BALANCED ships that have extra bells/whistles, but also have extra tradeoffs and drawbacks.

What you're asking for is basically just a freighter with a lot more armor and nothing else to detract from it (training time, like price, is not a balancing factor. It simply rewards people for being old/wealthy). That's not how it works.

If you want a tankier freighter, then it would need to hold dramatically less, AND align more slowly, or if it was nimbler, then it would need to be a lot flimsier, etc.


For example, I think it would be acceptable for freighters to be altered to have a couple slots. Something like:
* Default freighters (or a new, separate "customizable freighter class") hold 1/2 as much as they do now AND
* Default freighters are 1/2 as nimble as they are now AND
* Default freighters have 1/2 the armor they have now AND
* Default freighters are a little slower than they are now, BUT
* Freighters get 3 low slots

Then you would essentially have a "new ship" (customizable freighter), but balanced with tradeoffs.


Quote:
I already said that not everyone can afford a scout. we should not have to get a scout.

I lol'd. It takes 5 guys working together, according to you, to gank a freighter, and yet it's ridiculous to expect you to work with even one other person as an escort for defense? As far as I'm concerned, if you can defend yourself properly with 4 escort pilots per freighter, then the manpower is about correctly balanced with 5 people required to gank you.

And I'm fairly confident that with 4 scouts/logi ships following you around, you'd see a dramatic decrease in freighter losses.....
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#58 - 2012-11-26 11:01:55 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Jump freighters have more EHP, but hold less cargohold. Why can't they be the solution?



Because they are a 7 Billion ISK addition (plus cargo) to a killboard. That alone is worth shooting, if your killboard stats are looking a bit dodgy for the month.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2012-11-26 11:57:30 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Can we please, for the next few post, get back to the Original idea of this thread, which was : Could we get a new tier of freighters, maybe 2, specialised in some ways, or just better version, or whatever the consensus?

…and as mentioned, nah.

If it's just a new tier, it will be a smaller variation: more EHP, less cargo, most likely, and no difference in skill reqs.

If you want specialisation, it would be a T2, with all the skill reqs and costs that go along with it.

There should never be a “just better” version.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-11-26 11:59:13 UTC
So let's assume CCP give you a freighter with 500k m3 and 5 million HP, and you still get ganked, then what? "CCP, disallow aggression in hisec, it is unacceptable that we can't haul x billion isk worth in safety!"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat