These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Pulling the Plug on WiS

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#201 - 2012-11-24 17:45:19 UTC
War Porcika wrote:
Personally I think it's a good think that they throw out that engine. It's way to incomplete, buggy, resource intensive. CCP just does not have the resource to create a new engine. From development and from financial point it would be way to better to buy a WORKING 3d engine and adapt their own needs.

I think if they have done this 2 years ago, then we already would have WIS ready.

Since they are licensing Unreal engine for Dust, maybe they could adapt it to WIS, and we would get Walking in station.

CCP still seem to be a bit tight-lipped about which engine they're now using for WoD - though, it'd be reasonable to assume they're using Unreal.

If so, then I strongly suspect that all further progress on Wis will be completely shelved until the WoD Teams get a fully functioning games system completed - at which point, all the game mechanics (combat systems, etc.) would likely be ported over to WiS, with a conversion of current art assets - thus enabling EVE players to meet 'n' greet their Dust bunny rivals, and gank their own corpies 'Slave' clones for lulls, but, this, I imagine, would take literally years to re-develop... I could well be wrong though...

Will I spend hundreds on air fares, tickets and hotels to find out at Fanfest, as hinted...? No, of course not, but boy will I cringe if it turns out like the infamous FW roundtable that the Dev's didn't bother turning up for - boy were those guys short-changed...
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#202 - 2012-11-24 17:57:59 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
You are correct, you didn't need to spend real life cash in the NEX store, instead you had to exchange multiple PLEX for AURUM, you could either buy PLEX from the market, which assumes that you had the ISK resources to do so, or you could buy PLEX/GTC from CCP and 3rd party vendors which did actually involve parting with real life cash.


Which is the same thing that's been going on for years now just between RL cash and PLEX.

I was probably as surprised as CCP was that everyone treated it like something completely different, and only talked about cash value of Nex items.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Generals4
#203 - 2012-11-24 18:23:31 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Just to answer a couple of points:

  • Team Avatar doesn't exist anymore. As per the thread linked earlier our prototype has been shelved for the time being. Please read both my post and the one from CCP Unifex for the full picture on what's happening with WIS development at the moment. The team members are off working on a whole bunch of stuff from the launcher, through to new game features.
  • WoD is definitely still in development and development is split off from EVE so that they can concentrate on their game and making it awesome.


Sooo all the dev time put in CQ's was truly a waste? (because in its current state WiS is worthless)

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
Doddy
Excidium.
#204 - 2012-11-24 20:07:39 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Doddy wrote:
This isn't true tbh, eve has been 100% based on space combat since day one


100%? Really?

You might want to engage your brain before you post in future. I would say, "No offence", but it's difficult not to be offensive without underplaying what you just did there.


I am entirely right actually, everything else in eve is a) a very bare approximation of gameplay and b) entirely a function of combat. You might also want to look up what "based on" means. All other "not actually gameplay" exists soley to power it. There is no reason to build or mine if there is no space combat. Eve has no roids raped counter. WIS at its core concept is a social networking fad and tech tester. I am sure ccp could make an integrated avatar based game but the simple truth it is not economically viable, nor will it ever be. Their introduction of a linked concole fps game instead is proof enough of that.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#205 - 2012-11-24 21:09:45 UTC
I think CCP had a vision when they started EVE, and that vision has been undone by a demanding player base. I believe that vision was to develop EVE to become one of the most epic of space fantasy games. To make it encompass everything from walking in stations, to exploring planets, to flying spaceships and driving vehicles on the ground or racing them against other players. A true transition from one environment to the next.

I could be wrong though, and that would require extensive development and time to make it all happen. It would require starting off first with one element of it, then adding more as the years progress, further developing and iterating on existing portions, and adding new ones.

A game environment with multiple planets, stations, ships, and the ability to move between one and the other as a character. One among many. Fighting for control of the stars, the space lanes, or a section of a planet, a host of planets, or just a simple station in some far flung region of space. However you like.

All possible, even now, but it would require some work. Unfortunately, we seem to be inundated by players who only see the game as a place to engage ship-to-ship in fleets and make pixels explode, and demand that CCP limit its vision to only that.

zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#206 - 2012-11-25 00:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Doddy wrote:
I am entirely right actually

No, your not.
Doddy wrote:
All other "not actually gameplay" exists soley to power it.

They co-exist. Neither is good or useful without the other. That is not to say that one aspect of the game is their specifically for the purpose of the other. It's a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic one. Eve combat is powered by mining, in the same way that mining profits and use is powered by combat. One is nothing without the other.
Doddy wrote:
There is no reason to build or mine if there is no space combat.

There is also no reason for combat without industry or the potential to amass wealth or power.
Doddy wrote:
Eve has no roids raped counter.

It does have a wallet. And Eve didn't have an in-game KB until recently.
Doddy wrote:
WIS at its core concept is a social networking fad and tech tester. I am sure ccp could make an integrated avatar based game but the simple truth it is not economically viable, nor will it ever be. Their introduction of a linked concole fps game instead is proof enough of that.

Your not qualified to make that decision. They have decided to pursue WiS on a number of occasions and similar set ups are working in other games.


I shouldn't have to point out how terrible all of your arguments are.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Herr Hammer Draken
#207 - 2012-11-25 00:24:11 UTC
In response to everybody that wants WiS player combat, I am certain that can not happen in eve.

Several reason, the biggest is dust and the financial support for it from an outside source. Consider that dust can not be ported to a PC because of sony's vested interest in the play station. I can only imagine that the type of player combat support in dust is also licensed to dust as a precaution because sony knew ahead of time that dust would be connected to eve. Sony also has to be aware of WiS development in eve. It would be stupid of them to not protect their investment.

And eve does not include a skill tree for personel combat like dust does. Therefore I can not see combat included in WiS model.

Then it follows that if you can earn a form of income in WiS risk free that would break eve. So what then would WiS be for?
Well to socialize.

Except we can already do that with the chat rooms. Even chat with dust players. In fact all of our socializing in chat rooms can happen in game while doing eve things in game. However if you are in WiS then you are removed from eve environment.
In a place that can not be touched by combat. See above for why. And according to the spirit of the eula CCP wants the players to be engaged actively with there character while playing eve. Which means you can not be earning isk afk in eve while you are in WiS environment and because you can not add risk to this with combat then you can not earn any isk while engaged in a WiS activity either. It also means that it has an opportunity cost to eve. For every player in WiS for every hour they do that it is an hour that player is not doing eve things like mining, pve, pvp. That is a very real aspect to consider for CCP when designing WiS. It is the unintended consequence.

So given the above are all true then WiS is nothing more than playing with an avatar in the sims. If that is really what you want then play the sims.

If you want avatar combat then play dust. It has the skill tree for that already in place.

If you want a space ship combat game then play eve, that is what it is for.

What the players want, WiS to be an engaging thing to do in eve just can not happen for all the above plus a whole host more that simply do not fit in one post without it becoming a wall of text.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#208 - 2012-11-25 00:36:33 UTC
The only game where the developers have grander visions of the future than the players.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#209 - 2012-11-25 00:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

And according to the spirit of the eula CCP wants the players to be engaged actively with there character while playing eve. Which means you can not be earning isk afk in eve while you are in WiS environment and because you can not add risk to this with combat then you can not earn any isk while engaged in a WiS activity either. It also means that it has an opportunity cost to eve.
For every player in WiS for every hour they do that it is an hour that player is not doing eve things like mining, pve, pvp. That is a very real aspect to consider for CCP when designing WiS. It is the unintended consequence.

lol :)


Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

So given the above are all true then WiS is nothing more than playing with an avatar in the sims. If that is really what you want then play the sims.


That's like to say: if you want textures on your spaceships then go and play with Photoshop.

And I do not understand why CCP keep wasting resources doing polygonal modems for ships when in the end simple single boxes and cylinders would work the same.
None ofthe Above
#210 - 2012-11-25 00:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
War Porcika wrote:
Personally I think it's a good think that they throw out that engine. It's way to incomplete, buggy, resource intensive. CCP just does not have the resource to create a new engine. From development and from financial point it would be way to better to buy a WORKING 3d engine and adapt their own needs.

I think if they have done this 2 years ago, then we already would have WIS ready.

Since they are licensing Unreal engine for Dust, maybe they could adapt it to WIS, and we would get Walking in station.


To my understanding, WoD didn't throw out Carbon. They forked it. Meaning they are making changes that aren't at this time coming back to EVE (but could sometime in the future).

This makes sense since Carbon in EVE seems pretty limited for character animations. Adding the need to integrate into a stable Carbon and not mess up EVE while making changes would be a pain and resource intensive.

If WoD is a success, then potentially EVE could port to the Carbon 2.0 that evolves from the WOD or a merge could take place.

It is actually not all bad news. Just no payout for a while.

As to your second point, UNREAL might be a very good alternative, and would make integration with DUST easier. Or Unity is also making strides.

I don't think WiS is dead, but honestly tough to do even after all the work done so far.

Do hope the existing art assets (such as new clothes and sleeve tattoos) seen around are finished and released as much as possible with minimal resources committed to them.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Herr Hammer Draken
#211 - 2012-11-25 00:59:24 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

And according to the spirit of the eula CCP wants the players to be engaged actively with there character while playing eve. Which means you can not be earning isk afk in eve while you are in WiS environment and because you can not add risk to this with combat then you can not earn any isk while engaged in a WiS activity either. It also means that it has an opportunity cost to eve.
For every player in WiS for every hour they do that it is an hour that player is not doing eve things like mining, pve, pvp. That is a very real aspect to consider for CCP when designing WiS. It is the unintended consequence.

lol :)


Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

So given the above are all true then WiS is nothing more than playing with an avatar in the sims. If that is really what you want then play the sims.


That's like to say: if you want textures on your spaceships then go and play with Photoshop.

And I do not understand why CCP keep wasting resources doing polygonal modems for ships when in the end simple single boxes and cylinders would work the same.


Well when you create your own context out of what I said then your statement makes sense.

But your statement has nothing to do with the context of what I said.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#212 - 2012-11-25 01:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

And according to the spirit of the eula CCP wants the players to be engaged actively with there character while playing eve. Which means you can not be earning isk afk in eve while you are in WiS environment and because you can not add risk to this with combat then you can not earn any isk while engaged in a WiS activity either. It also means that it has an opportunity cost to eve.
For every player in WiS for every hour they do that it is an hour that player is not doing eve things like mining, pve, pvp. That is a very real aspect to consider for CCP when designing WiS. It is the unintended consequence.

lol :)


Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

So given the above are all true then WiS is nothing more than playing with an avatar in the sims. If that is really what you want then play the sims.


That's like to say: if you want textures on your spaceships then go and play with Photoshop.

And I do not understand why CCP keep wasting resources doing polygonal modems for ships when in the end simple single boxes and cylinders would work the same.


Well when you create your own context out of what I said then your statement makes sense.

But your statement has nothing to do with the context of what I said.


Frankly your entire argument is ridiculous and based on the idea that "you know best". Which begs the question, why aren't you a games designer working for CCP? Probably, because you don't know best.

Edit: Also, most of your argument is constructed from a "therefore, therefore, therefore" perspective. Which is something called deductive reasoning. A form of logic people have called "crap" since the ancient Greeks.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Herr Hammer Draken
#213 - 2012-11-25 01:06:27 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

And according to the spirit of the eula CCP wants the players to be engaged actively with there character while playing eve. Which means you can not be earning isk afk in eve while you are in WiS environment and because you can not add risk to this with combat then you can not earn any isk while engaged in a WiS activity either. It also means that it has an opportunity cost to eve.
For every player in WiS for every hour they do that it is an hour that player is not doing eve things like mining, pve, pvp. That is a very real aspect to consider for CCP when designing WiS. It is the unintended consequence.

lol :)


Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

So given the above are all true then WiS is nothing more than playing with an avatar in the sims. If that is really what you want then play the sims.


That's like to say: if you want textures on your spaceships then go and play with Photoshop.

And I do not understand why CCP keep wasting resources doing polygonal modems for ships when in the end simple single boxes and cylinders would work the same.


Well when you create your own context out of what I said then your statement makes sense.

But your statement has nothing to do with the context of what I said.


Frankly your entire argument is ridiculous and based on the idea that "you know best". Which begs the question, why aren't you a games designer working for CCP? Probably, because you don't know best.


Yep thats the spirit of a proper forum poster. Can not counter the argument then discredit it.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#214 - 2012-11-25 01:06:28 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

Well when you create your own context out of what I said then your statement makes sense.
But your statement has nothing to do with the context of what I said.


Sorry, My bad. The context of what you said is that developing WiS would be against the CCP Eula. Sorry for not considering your argument properly :)
Herr Hammer Draken
#215 - 2012-11-25 01:09:45 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

Well when you create your own context out of what I said then your statement makes sense.
But your statement has nothing to do with the context of what I said.


Sorry, My bad. The context of what you said is that developing WiS would be against the CCP Eula. Sorry for not considering your argument properly :)




Nope that is not the context of what I said either try again.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#216 - 2012-11-25 01:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

Yep thats the spirit of a proper forum poster. Can not counter the argument then discredit it.

I was kind of hoping you would eventually see how daft your own arguements were so I wouldn't have to go through them one by one to point out their stupidity. Ready?

Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
I am certain that can not happen in eve.

Several reason, the biggest is dust and the financial support for it from an outside source. Consider that dust can not be ported to a PC because of sony's vested interest in the play station. I can only imagine that the type of player combat support in dust is also licensed to dust as a precaution because sony knew ahead of time that dust would be connected to eve. Sony also has to be aware of WiS development in eve. It would be stupid of them to not protect their investment.

And eve does not include a skill tree for personel combat like dust does. Therefore I can not see combat included in WiS model.

Then it follows that if you can earn a form of income in WiS risk free that would break eve. So what then would WiS be for?
Well to socialize.


Almost all business suppot themselves via outside sources. These are called banks. Sony's exclusive contract to Dust is limited by a time frame. Eventually Dust will be legally able to change to whatever medium it likes. Sony has no influence on the development of the game, as has been stated by Sony themselves last fanfest. No WiS does not have a skill tree, but that is not a barrier to adding one. Therefore, is a terrible way to end an argument, because its deductive reasoning again... Its just your opinion and bears no semblance to reality. Then it follows, is another deductive reason idea which is flawed, and if that weren't enough you based it off your already flawed therefore statement.

Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Except we can already do that with the chat rooms. Even chat with dust players. In fact all of our socializing in chat rooms can happen in game while doing eve things in game. However if you are in WiS then you are removed from eve environment.
In a place that can not be touched by combat. See above for why. And according to the spirit of the eula CCP wants the players to be engaged actively with there character while playing eve. Which means you can not be earning isk afk in eve while you are in WiS environment and because you can not add risk to this with combat then you can not earn any isk while engaged in a WiS activity either. It also means that it has an opportunity cost to eve. For every player in WiS for every hour they do that it is an hour that player is not doing eve things like mining, pve, pvp. That is a very real aspect to consider for CCP when designing WiS. It is the unintended consequence.


This entire quote above is another therefore based off of two already horribly flawed arguments. Basically ever part of your post from this point onwards isn't worth reading, because you basing it off two sentences that arn't true.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Herr Hammer Draken
#217 - 2012-11-25 01:28:25 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

Yep thats the spirit of a proper forum poster. Can not counter the argument then discredit it.

I was kind of hoping you would eventually see how daft your own arguements were so I wouldn't have to go through them one by one to point out their stupidity. Ready?

Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
I am certain that can not happen in eve.

Several reason, the biggest is dust and the financial support for it from an outside source. Consider that dust can not be ported to a PC because of sony's vested interest in the play station. I can only imagine that the type of player combat support in dust is also licensed to dust as a precaution because sony knew ahead of time that dust would be connected to eve. Sony also has to be aware of WiS development in eve. It would be stupid of them to not protect their investment.

And eve does not include a skill tree for personel combat like dust does. Therefore I can not see combat included in WiS model.

Then it follows that if you can earn a form of income in WiS risk free that would break eve. So what then would WiS be for?
Well to socialize.


Almost all business suppot themselves via outside sources. These are called banks. Sony's exclusive contract to Dust is limited by a time frame. Eventually Dust will be legally able to change to whatever medium it likes. Sony has no influence on the development of the game, as has been stated by Sony themselves last fanfest. No WiS does not have a skill tree, but that is no a barrier to adding one. Therefore, is a terrible way to end an argument, because its deductive reasoning again... Its just your opinion and bears no semblance to reality. Then it follows, is another deductive reason idea which is flawed, and if that weren't enough you based it off your already flawed therefore statement.

Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Except we can already do that with the chat rooms. Even chat with dust players. In fact all of our socializing in chat rooms can happen in game while doing eve things in game. However if you are in WiS then you are removed from eve environment.
In a place that can not be touched by combat. See above for why. And according to the spirit of the eula CCP wants the players to be engaged actively with there character while playing eve. Which means you can not be earning isk afk in eve while you are in WiS environment and because you can not add risk to this with combat then you can not earn any isk while engaged in a WiS activity either. It also means that it has an opportunity cost to eve. For every player in WiS for every hour they do that it is an hour that player is not doing eve things like mining, pve, pvp. That is a very real aspect to consider for CCP when designing WiS. It is the unintended consequence.


This entire quote above is another therefore based off of two already horribly flawed arguments. Basically ever part of your post from this point onwards isn't worth reading, because you basing it off two sentences that arn't true.


However Sony does have a contract now. Maybe in the future things can change. But not now. Dust has not even been released yet. I am quite sure WiS will be tied up at least until Sony's grip loosens.

Time will of course tell the truth of the matter. Which I suspect will bear me out. I really doubt eve will see any significant WiS developement until after Sony's contract time is up. Assuming what you want is what CCP wants to do with WiS.

However if all CCP wants out of WiS is a Sims type environment then maybe we could see WiS development earlier.

I will of course keep a link to this post as will you I am sure to see how this pans out in the future.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#218 - 2012-11-25 01:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

However Sony does have a contract now. Maybe in the future things can change. But not now. Dust has not even been released yet. I am quite sure WiS will be tied up at least until Sony's grip loosens.

Time will of course tell the truth of the matter. Which I suspect will bear me out. I really doubt eve will see any significant WiS developement until after Sony's contract time is up. Assuming what you want is what CCP wants to do with WiS.

However if all CCP wants out of WiS is a Sims type environment then maybe we could see WiS development earlier.

I will of course keep a link to this post as will you I am sure to see how this pans out in the future.


Okay, you didn't get it. Your entire argument is based on the idea that Sony wont allow CCP to put combat into WiS in Eve. Which is ridiculous. Especially as they started prototyping a WiS model with combat involved and have already proposed that it would be the future of WiS. And they started making it after their contract with Sony. Sony have no hold over Eve. (Edit: CCP have specifically stated this over and over, and it was confirmed by Sony at the last fanfest.)

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#219 - 2012-11-25 01:37:41 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

However Sony does have a contract now. Maybe in the future things can change. But not now. Dust has not even been released yet. I am quite sure WiS will be tied up at least until Sony's grip loosens.

Time will of course tell the truth of the matter. Which I suspect will bear me out. I really doubt eve will see any significant WiS developement until after Sony's contract time is up. Assuming what you want is what CCP wants to do with WiS.

However if all CCP wants out of WiS is a Sims type environment then maybe we could see WiS development earlier.

I will of course keep a link to this post as will you I am sure to see how this pans out in the future.


Okay, you didn't get it. Your entire argument is based on the idea that Sony wont allow CCP to put combat into WiS in Eve. Which is ridiculous. Especially as they started prototyping a WiS model with combat involved and have already proposed that it would be the future of WiS. And they started making it after their contract with Sony. Sony have no hold over Eve. (Edit: CCP have specifically stated this over and over, and it was confirmed by Sony at the last fanfest.)

President of Sony is on record as an active suicide ganker, by his own admission, and a long time one at that.

I don't think Sony opposes EVE having a hard core PVP element, or supports it becoming more carebear.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#220 - 2012-11-25 01:45:48 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
President of Sony is on record as an active suicide ganker, by his own admission, and a long time one at that.


[Citation Needed]

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi