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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Protecting Our Newbies

Author
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-11-24 13:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Will only say this:

Malcanis' Law

Some will know it.
For those who don't, good luck.

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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-11-24 18:37:19 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Malcanis' Law

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-11-24 19:17:40 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Malcanis' Law

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."


Bingo

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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#24 - 2012-11-24 19:54:03 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Malcanis' Law

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."


Bingo


And what that means is that we SHOULDN'T make specific stuff for newbies, partly because this is eve and they're better off getting used to it right away and partly because it'll be (ab)used by the older players anyway.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-11-24 20:18:15 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Malcanis' Law

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
Bingo
And what that means is that we SHOULDN'T make specific stuff for newbies, partly because this is eve and they're better off getting used to it right away and partly because it'll be (ab)used by the older players anyway.
And if you read what I wrote, I specifically state that no new mechanics to make it easier on newbies should be developed. As a sandbox, easing newbies into the game is mostly the player's responsibility.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-11-24 22:17:00 UTC
I used to camp right outside the Gallente noob system gate with a battle procurer eating up newbies.

Thin the herd, let the strong survive...

So far there have been none strong enough to survive...

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-11-24 23:28:32 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Malcanis' Law

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
Bingo
And what that means is that we SHOULDN'T make specific stuff for newbies, partly because this is eve and they're better off getting used to it right away and partly because it'll be (ab)used by the older players anyway.
And if you read what I wrote, I specifically state that no new mechanics to make it easier on newbies should be developed. As a sandbox, easing newbies into the game is mostly the player's responsibility.


I know.

But most people (usually fairly new players too) suggest to make a place in space where only new players can come and make it 100% safe. It WILL be abused, can you imagine the mining alts of older toons, sitting there perfectly safe.

And I also agree that getting new players settled in EVE is a player responsibility. Though there are already plenty of "University" corps (like E-Uni) and new player friendly corporations that are doing that exact thing. And then there is also this forum part with it's own inhabitants:

o/ Xer, Oraac, Tau, Surfin, Schmata, Homo Jesus (or his new name), Keno and all others I've missed

What I would suggest.

CCP should make looking for corporations easier and more clear.
CCP should direct people a bit more to the forums.
OPEN Rookie help to older players (but only after been passed a good check - kind of unofficial ISD, can join, can't moderate, etc.)

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SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-11-25 00:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Quote:

So, as players, do we have any responsibility to EVE Online's newbies?


Nope.. they can take responsibility for themselves. Let's face it, most new players are used to easy instant gratification activities in general and don't like having to actually use their head for more than a hat holder. You can't patch stupid.


Disagree emphatically. My organization has proven just how far a little hand holding can take you.

Most of the people I've seen who quit eve, do so within the first few days because they literally can't do anything useful. There is no sense of power. Several things I'd suggest to deal with this is: Start every player with the ability to fit most T1 frigate sized modules. If that means giving away an extra 2 million skillpoints at start; I have no problem with this. This means rather than having a discussions with new players in my own organization about how they will have to wait an extra day before they can actually have fun in this game, I'll be taking them to the fun immediately.

Second: Take those lovingly designed new player frigates and throw them out. It's a useless ship. Well that or buff them a little so they are actually you know, viable spaceships.

The Eve new player experience blows choad, and at two years playing, decent subcap pilot and capital pilot, it doesn't offend my delicate sensibilities one single iota if they get something I didn't get.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#29 - 2012-11-25 00:33:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
The problem with giving new characters "useful" xp is that it'll make for "overpowered" alts, we all remember what one could do with the old 900k starter SP chars. I know the buddy system is about to be changed but it still works fine as you still get a time reward, which still makes it effectively zero cost. Per usual Malcanis' law applies, I really don't want to go back to that and especially not giving them MORE XP than they previously had.

Perhaps put a system in place that if you upgrade a non-buddy account THEN you get X amount of free xp to distribute to your own liking for one character on that account, this also means that people can "specialise" to whatever they want right from the start and perhaps there could be basic "templates" for people to choose or they can choose the manual option. Going back to the previous "what career do you want to do" at char creation also works ofcourse.

That would lower the "risk" of people creating OP alts for whatever reason and would kinda ensure it'd help new players rather than someone's army of shadow alts.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-11-25 10:47:08 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Quote:

So, as players, do we have any responsibility to EVE Online's newbies?


Nope.. they can take responsibility for themselves. Let's face it, most new players are used to easy instant gratification activities in general and don't like having to actually use their head for more than a hat holder. You can't patch stupid.


Disagree emphatically. My organization has proven just how far a little hand holding can take you.

Most of the people I've seen who quit eve, do so within the first few days because they literally can't do anything useful. There is no sense of power. Several things I'd suggest to deal with this is: Start every player with the ability to fit most T1 frigate sized modules. If that means giving away an extra 2 million skillpoints at start; I have no problem with this. This means rather than having a discussions with new players in my own organization about how they will have to wait an extra day before they can actually have fun in this game, I'll be taking them to the fun immediately.

Second: Take those lovingly designed new player frigates and throw them out. It's a useless ship. Well that or buff them a little so they are actually you know, viable spaceships.

The Eve new player experience blows choad, and at two years playing, decent subcap pilot and capital pilot, it doesn't offend my delicate sensibilities one single iota if they get something I didn't get.


On your first point:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2219682#post2219682

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-11-25 10:49:22 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
The problem with giving new characters "useful" xp is that it'll make for "overpowered" alts, we all remember what one could do with the old 900k starter SP chars. I know the buddy system is about to be changed but it still works fine as you still get a time reward, which still makes it effectively zero cost. Per usual Malcanis' law applies, I really don't want to go back to that and especially not giving them MORE XP than they previously had.

Perhaps put a system in place that if you upgrade a non-buddy account THEN you get X amount of free xp to distribute to your own liking for one character on that account, this also means that people can "specialise" to whatever they want right from the start and perhaps there could be basic "templates" for people to choose or they can choose the manual option. Going back to the previous "what career do you want to do" at char creation also works ofcourse.

That would lower the "risk" of people creating OP alts for whatever reason and would kinda ensure it'd help new players rather than someone's army of shadow alts.


Your idea looks good.

Only flaw in it: Power of 2

Most people create alts using power of 2 as it gives them bigger monetary advantage over a longer time period.

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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#32 - 2012-11-25 12:22:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
power of 2 is fine to get the advantage (although I'm not angling for it, if you know what I mean) as it effectively means it's an actual account. The problem is being able to create capable disposable alts under the current and new buddy system. The only difference is that now you can make as many as you want (effectively) while with the new system it's 1 per month, realistically. But that still would be too much.

So non-buddy is fine and P2 would also be fine. Thing is ofcourse that is would crash the "buddy market" which I have no problem with as that has gotten out of had imo, partially because you're giving new players "free stuff" with the current system. There would have to be a solution to keep the buddy system interesting but that's probably for another thread.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-11-25 12:33:40 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
power of 2 is fine to get the advantage (although I'm not angling for it, if you know what I mean) as it effectively means it's an actual account. The problem is being able to create capable disposable alts under the current and new buddy system. The only difference is that now you can make as many as you want (effectively) while with the new system it's 1 per month, realistically. But that still would be too much.

So non-buddy is fine and P2 would also be fine. Thing is ofcourse that is would crash the "buddy market" which I have no problem with as that has gotten out of had imo, partially because you're giving new players "free stuff" with the current system. There would have to be a solution to keep the buddy system interesting but that's probably for another thread.


I don't think current buddy invite is bad.

It's the people that offer different quantities of ISK to new players that ruin it.
Giving a new player 200 mil will just spoil him + you will on your own gain another 400 mil from selling that PLEX.
So you are looking like you are doing a favor to new players while in term you are just doing yourself a good favor.

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Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#34 - 2012-11-25 13:11:37 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Quote:

So, as players, do we have any responsibility to EVE Online's newbies?


Nope.. they can take responsibility for themselves. Let's face it, most new players are used to easy instant gratification activities in general and don't like having to actually use their head for more than a hat holder. You can't patch stupid.


Disagree emphatically. My organization has proven just how far a little hand holding can take you.

Most of the people I've seen who quit eve, do so within the first few days because they literally can't do anything useful. There is no sense of power. Several things I'd suggest to deal with this is: Start every player with the ability to fit most T1 frigate sized modules. If that means giving away an extra 2 million skillpoints at start; I have no problem with this. This means rather than having a discussions with new players in my own organization about how they will have to wait an extra day before they can actually have fun in this game, I'll be taking them to the fun immediately.

Second: Take those lovingly designed new player frigates and throw them out. It's a useless ship. Well that or buff them a little so they are actually you know, viable spaceships.

The Eve new player experience blows choad, and at two years playing, decent subcap pilot and capital pilot, it doesn't offend my delicate sensibilities one single iota if they get something I didn't get.


Well, first of all, your organization is famous for recruitment scams. I like the idea but let's not make believe the goons are new player friendly.

Most people that leave in the first few days leave because there is no way to grind critters to reach a level cap, when you ask for help you're usually presented with reading materials, no respawn button and loss penalties and last but not least no imagination or social graces. I have quite a few friends who have tried this game and they were the reasons other than the chick that didn't like the click-to-move mechanics and she couldn't pick the color of the ship.... she was also looking for dance emotes in the captain's quarters ya think we should add those?
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#35 - 2012-11-25 14:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
J'Poll wrote:
I don't think current buddy invite is bad.

It's the people that offer different quantities of ISK to new players that ruin it.
Giving a new player 200 mil will just spoil him + you will on your own gain another 400 mil from selling that PLEX.
So you are looking like you are doing a favor to new players while in term you are just doing yourself a good favor.



It IS bad, right now you can create 10 51-day full account alts per month for zero cost. Meaning hilarious use of haulers, scouts, cyno alts, scammers and ofcourse suicide alts. It's gotten out of control (I've been using it extensively since it was introduced, albeit it not for nefarious tasks). Most of the "new" players you see ingame, on these forums and joining existing corporations are buddy alt accounts, to a point where any sensible newbie corp simply shouldn't accept anyone under 51 days old because it's a massive security risk as the account looks clean even if you look further than most, but ofcourse isn't safe at all. I do agree with the "free stuff" issue, as I pointed out earlier in the thread.

So yes, the buddy system as it is atm needs to go, it's out of control and it's actually weighing heavily on CCP's profitability, in a bad way. The tinfoil explanation why CCP let it slide for so long is because it helped bolster the tanked PCU numbers after the :18 months: debacle, while in reality CCP was probably too lazy&slow to bother changing it, per usual.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-11-25 14:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Vilnius Zar wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
I don't think current buddy invite is bad.

It's the people that offer different quantities of ISK to new players that ruin it.
Giving a new player 200 mil will just spoil him + you will on your own gain another 400 mil from selling that PLEX.
So you are looking like you are doing a favor to new players while in term you are just doing yourself a good favor.



It IS bad, right now you can create 10 51-day full account alts per month for zero cost. Meaning hilarious use of haulers, scouts, cyno alts, scammers and ofcourse suicide alts. It's gotten out of control (I've been using it extensively since it was introduced, albeit it not for nefarious tasks). Most of the "new" players you see ingame, on these forums and joining existing corporations are buddy alt accounts, to a point where any sensible newbie corp simply shouldn't accept anyone under 51 days old because it's a massive security risk as the account looks clean even if you look further than most, but ofcourse isn't safe at all. I do agree with the "free stuff" issue, as I pointed out earlier in the thread.

So yes, the buddy system as it is atm needs to go, it's out of control and it's actually weighing heavily on CCP's profitability, in a bad way. The tinfoil explanation why CCP let it slide for so long is because it helped bolster the tanked PCU numbers after the :18 months: debacle, while in reality CCP was probably too lazy&slow to bother changing it, per usual.


By saying that most new people in EVE and on this forum are just alt...You sir need a new tinfoil hat, your old one has worked out.

Also, why are you posting in here with advice if all of these questions are posted by alts and all other people who join are alts too.

AKA Give factual proof that the majority of new players are buddy alts or stop whining about something your tinfoil mind has made up.

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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#37 - 2012-11-25 15:05:15 UTC
Watch the PCU, 51+ days after the buddy invite change.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-11-25 15:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Watch the PCU, 51+ days after the buddy invite change.


Yeah, but now proof that all of those are alts.

p.s. I give out an avg of 20 - 25 buddy invites a month, NONE of which are my alts.

Also look at the sticky, plenty of others that offer BI to new players.

Not get back into your tinfoil covered cave.

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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#39 - 2012-11-25 15:21:42 UTC
Now I understand your sudden hostility :)
Keno Skir
#40 - 2012-11-25 17:56:35 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
I used to camp right outside the Gallente noob system gate with a battle procurer eating up newbies.

Thin the herd, let the strong survive...

So far there have been none strong enough to survive...


You still do that.