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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Lili Lu
#6201 - 2012-11-23 20:36:11 UTC
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...

No it's called train a ******* BS and large weapons like every other race to do a level 4, and stop whining.Roll
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#6202 - 2012-11-23 20:36:16 UTC
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Wait, are these changes supposed to increase or decrease our profits? You lost me there and I want to make sure I'm part of the correct shadowy conspiracy.
In all seriousness we don't balance the game to trick people into losing ships and replacing them with plex, we balance the game to create an interesting and fun game environment for everyone. It turns out the best way to convince people to pay some of their hard earned money for your game is to make a good game! Who would have guessed?!



Just because you are denying the conspiracy does not mean there is not one, that is how shadow conspiracies work! CCP is a business, and the whole idea of a business is to make a profit, otherwise it a charity/nonprofit org. So yeah Fozzie you guys are trying to get us to spend money.

You would think that instead of trying to keep our interest in playing eve you would actually give us something new and interest in the game, rather than change what we already have and call it balancing.

Instead of wasting your time "balancing" the missile system, why don't you guys get to work on making us faction Battlecruiers? Who wouldn't want a CN Farox (a CN Drake would be even more awesome but useless with these "balanced" Missiles), or a Angel Cyclone, or Sansha Harbinger. or Come up with NEW skills to help the raging players who whine about the Drake/Tengu's to keep range.

Want to solve the ability of tengus and Drakes to keep range? slow them down! Fix the 3 different sized AB and MWD to where they can only fit on the ships they are intended for, 1mn on frigs and destroyers, 10mn on cruisers and Bcs, and 100 mn's on Battleships and bigger. makes alot more since than changing the HML since it would work on all the races ships.

There are other and better ways to keep us interested than "balancing" the ships we already have.



Look at it this way, theyre adding 4 new battlecruisers to the game, and a whole new weapon platform!

New Battlecruisers
Brutix
Harbinger
Prophecy
Ferox

Where they really in the game before? really? How often did you see any of these ships flying around? why? because they're totally eclipsed by the current drake and hurricane, this will no longer be the case.

New Weapon Platform
HAM

Once again, how many times have you seen a ship sporting these flying around? After the change, you may have some new viable equipment to equip

Also maybe we can try out the sacrilege again, maybe after the HAM changes it wont totally suck anymore!!

Oh look, we have new stuff to play with . . . Roll



So how about no matter what ship you take it's the same? i don't like that.


I agree, that would not be balance, that would be uniformity, I've posted along those lines many times during this thread. I don't mind any ship or weapon system having an edge, even a large edge as long as it has a corresponding disadvantage to go along with it. Like a superhero having a special weakness, now that would be balance. These changes do not represent that but are rather an attempt to make everything the same. This is uniformity...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6203 - 2012-11-23 21:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...


Oh, you use Drakes... Most likely multiple Drakes doing multiple level 4s at the same time.

T1 battlecruisers were never meant for running level 4s.
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6204 - 2012-11-24 00:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Faora Zod
Lili Lu wrote:
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...

No it's called train a ******* BS and large weapons like every other race to do a level 4, and stop whining.Roll


You should start thinking like a NEW player who has only been playing a couple of months, do you really think with the way the market is now that a newbie is going to be able to afford the couple of hundred million it takes to buy and fit a BS to do level 4s? Best day of my eve life was when i soloed my first level 4 in a Drake, i knew i was here to stay. If they are wanting to keep this game fun and interesting like CCP Fozzie claims it needs to stay fun and interesting for NEW players too. You slow down how fast it takes them to feel like the accomplished something on their own and they are going t o lose interest.
Meolyne
Perkone
Caldari State
#6205 - 2012-11-24 00:39:18 UTC
Nope, you're wrong. New players won't stop playing because their Drake can't solo a Lvl4.

when i was "young", i had choice : Skill further than battlecruiser, or stick with this low dps high tanking s**t
I loved the drake, but... it was not meant to solo L4 anyway.

Tried with a Scorpion, lost it.
Tried with a Rokh and 425mm. Almost lost it (WTF my Beautiful Police Stick has terrible dps/range/capacitor !)
Then finally, i resigned myself to buy and fit a Raven. I hated the design but it worked pretty well.
You just can't AFK with this bird. But it's perfect to do L4, as long as you don't want to rush them with your ex-80M isk ship.

What i love with CCP, that they know the word NERF / Balanced.
Your stuff isn't obsolete after every patches and everybody's happy. (not counting guys flying a ship they know it would be nerfed someday (aka Drake) )
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6206 - 2012-11-24 01:19:20 UTC
Faora Zod wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...

No it's called train a ******* BS and large weapons like every other race to do a level 4, and stop whining.Roll


You should start thinking like a NEW player who has only been playing a couple of months, do you really think with the way the market is now that a newbie is going to be able to afford the couple of hundred million it takes to buy and fit a BS to do level 4s? Best day of my eve life was when i soloed my first level 4 in a Drake, i knew i was here to stay. If they are wanting to keep this game fun and interesting like CCP Fozzie claims it needs to stay fun and interesting for NEW players too. You slow down how fast it takes them to feel like the accomplished something on their own and they are going t o lose interest.


would also help if caldari actualy had a good bs for missions in the first place.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6207 - 2012-11-24 01:28:08 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I agree that the Caldari battleships needs some love and the the Raven description is just plain wrong, but aren't these ships lined up for some tiericide treatment in any case? I might be wrong on the last point, but either way they should be rebalancd to behave as a new player who has read some of the eve chronicles and backstory might expect them too.

Coming back to the main thread, missiles have always been underpowered as evidenced by an earlier post in which someone said that they offered the second best alpha in the game next to artiliieries. Thing is though, doesn't this mean that artillary weapons are over powered as after all we're looking for balance here. Artillary weapons don't have to wait as long as missiles to apply damage in any case so are doubly overpowered.

I don't mind them being over powered, but I think that missiles should be buffed to be their equal, not further nerfed to be the most inferior of all weapon systems.

As for the whole caldari shield question the most advanced shield systems belong to the minmater not the caldari as is claimed in the Eve backstory, you've only got to look at the Maelstrom for that with it's 8000 HP and 7.5% bonus to shield boosting per level. It can deploy power at sizeable range with it's projectiles and is in real terms everything that the Raven should be but is not.

It's the new players I feel sorry for. They might like the look of a caldari character as most new players tend to and if they try and play out the racial stereotype and train rails and missiles they will all die horribly and be ***** slapped hard across the cluster by people who know better. It' probably wont be much fun for them and will increase the rate of churn that CCP currently has when it comes to new players, joining, trying and quitting.

My final point is that nerfs cost ccp money in terms of lost subscriptions. No one who has trained hard for a skill or an ability to use a weapon likes to see it nerfed without an equivalent buff elsewhere. i.e. my heavy missiles don't do as much damage, are not as versatile against different size targets as they used to be and are incapable of going as far. I might forgive this if all launchers had an increase in ROF to make up for it or enlarged capacities so I don't have to reload as often.

I will most probably forgive the proposed Drake nerf in which it loses it's sheild resist bonus but gets a ROF bonus for the missiles etc. I may even get to like it if it has an increase to passive regen (I'd lovbe to see that) but then again this latter point wont happen as we all know Caldari have the most advanced shield systems of anyone, so no need.


so basicaly what your saying here is minmatar have the fastest, most alpha and the most advanced shield systems i so wanna call op here but i dont have to cause they were enslaved by armarr but seriously. if minmatar have the highest alph and the fastest ships something should be lacking in my opinion they should have an inferior shield to a race that uses ONLY shield. the most advanced shield systems dont belong on a race that cant decide if there armour or shield tankers.
Lili Lu
#6208 - 2012-11-24 02:10:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
serras bang wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...

No it's called train a ******* BS and large weapons like every other race to do a level 4, and stop whining.Roll


You should start thinking like a NEW player who has only been playing a couple of months, do you really think with the way the market is now that a newbie is going to be able to afford the couple of hundred million it takes to buy and fit a BS to do level 4s? Best day of my eve life was when i soloed my first level 4 in a Drake, i knew i was here to stay. If they are wanting to keep this game fun and interesting like CCP Fozzie claims it needs to stay fun and interesting for NEW players too. You slow down how fast it takes them to feel like the accomplished something on their own and they are going t o lose interest.


would also help if caldari actualy had a good bs for missions in the first place.

Yeesh, kids these days. The Raven was the primier level 4 boat for many years. It's fine as a level 4 ship. Much better than a Drake. Roll

edit - and most people do have to spend a couple hundred million for a BS. Unless, as you seem to expect, Faora, that every new player should train Caldari and fly a drake. But that's not a balanced game. Which is my whole point.
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6209 - 2012-11-24 02:51:51 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
serras bang wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...

No it's called train a ******* BS and large weapons like every other race to do a level 4, and stop whining.Roll


You should start thinking like a NEW player who has only been playing a couple of months, do you really think with the way the market is now that a newbie is going to be able to afford the couple of hundred million it takes to buy and fit a BS to do level 4s? Best day of my eve life was when i soloed my first level 4 in a Drake, i knew i was here to stay. If they are wanting to keep this game fun and interesting like CCP Fozzie claims it needs to stay fun and interesting for NEW players too. You slow down how fast it takes them to feel like the accomplished something on their own and they are going t o lose interest.


would also help if caldari actualy had a good bs for missions in the first place.

Yeesh, kids these days. The Raven was the primier level 4 boat for many years. It's fine as a level 4 ship. Much better than a Drake. Roll

edit - and most people do have to spend a couple hundred million for a BS. Unless, as you seem to expect, Faora, that every new player should train Caldari and fly a drake. But that's not a balanced game. Which is my whole point.



No i don't expect new players to want to train straight into a Drake, but I do think the best choice for a new player is to train into a Battlecruiser no matter the race, I might be bias in my view, but than again I am not a fan of Battleships I find them to be to big and slow for my taste but to each their own. Honestly i quit using a Drake for lvl 4s as soon as I could fly a Cerb, the RoF was much better, than i upgrade that to a Nighthawk which i still think is one of the best mission/plexing ships you can get. But still that is my view on PVE, PVP is a totally different subject, and game play for me. Guns all the way
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6210 - 2012-11-24 03:06:27 UTC
Something else that I have been thinking about is how our actually weapon systems work in the real world. Missiles do more damage and have better range than guns, granted bullets move faster and it takes a lot more of then to take a target down they are still an effective way to blow **** up. Hell if you think about it the range on lasers should be Infinity since all lasers really are is light, granted the damage should weaken the further the light travels, but still there is no limit really to how far light can travel. AND we are in space, which means even less friction, ..... That is what you guys should be doing Fozzie is increase every things range and take in to account the amount of resistance that s placed on the speed projectile.




FREE OUR MARKET, REMOVE THE PLEX!
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#6211 - 2012-11-24 03:39:22 UTC
serras bang wrote:

would also help if caldari actualy had a good bs for missions in the first place.


........Shocked

You lost a lot of credibility here. Raven was absolute king of L4's for years.
Mach and Vargur are considered by many to be the best nowadays (many also think a nerf will probalby eventually hit the Mach),
But navy Raven is still right up there, and may even return to top or 2nd place after the incoming update.

If you like playing it safer, the Navy Issue Scorpion is an absolutely absurd omni tank, and still blasts through L4's fast enough.

Tengu's and Drakes can do them, but were never meant to do L4's as well (or at least as fast) as they currently can.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#6212 - 2012-11-24 08:40:29 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

I'm not excluding these two BS, but you are excluding all the others.

Hearing you, the only way to make a ship viable for fleet is to give it a resist bonus. There is only two ships with resist bonus, and they are those you define as the best and the only usable ships for fleet.

There is 9 other BS than the 3 we are talking about, and none of them have a resist bonus. Though, they are not useless because of this.

There can only be one best ship in a defined use case, but we cant argue then that all the others are complete junk.

What I argue with the Raven is that it definitely have some unrivaled qualities. The problem it may face is that these qualities are not favoured by the metagames these days.

@Moonaura : you obviously haven't read any of the last 5 pages. What you are saying is plain wrong.


Well said and true.

Only a fool would say that the Raven could not possibly have some use, and that a fleet could never be designed around it.

The basic idea behind sound tactics is to apply your strengths against your enemies weaknesses more effectively than he applies his strengths against your weaknesses. This job becomes much easier when you have more strengths to potentially exploit. In the case of the Raven, well, it has basically only one: it can shoot a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way.

Obviously this can this be exploited.

But secondary questions are important: Is this advantage worth the cost? How easy is it to set up a scenario in which this advantage can be utilized, and assuming everything goes perfectly how well does it actually work? How easy is it to counter, and what can you then do in response? Before you throw billions of isk worth of battleships onto the field it's probably a good idea to have thought all that through.

People have done just that, and they didn't like the answers. Which is why you see Ravens (and a dozen other Caldari hulls) decorating hangars.

OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#6213 - 2012-11-24 08:51:59 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...

No it's called train a ******* BS and large weapons like every other race to do a level 4, and stop whining.Roll


Every other race has functioning command ships and HACs. But then you knew that. And in any case, when we are talking Caldari mission battleships those are broken as well. You need the faction battleships to do the job.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6214 - 2012-11-24 09:15:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
OT Smithers wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...

No it's called train a ******* BS and large weapons like every other race to do a level 4, and stop whining.Roll


Every other race has functioning command ships and HACs. But then you knew that. And in any case, when we are talking Caldari mission battleships those are broken as well. You need the faction battleships to do the job.


Please, show us Zealot/Sacrilege that can solo level 4s. Yeah, Sac has the tank (dual reps) but in that configuration it doesn't have much damage...

Ever got your Zealot webbed by spider drones?

Would like to see that Damnation too that can put out more than 200 dps and tank level 4s at the same time.
Matzumisi
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6215 - 2012-11-24 10:09:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Matzumisi
[Sacrilege, sacr hams copy 2]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

10MN Afterburner II
Large Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell
Target Painter II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Salvager II

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II


Hobgoblin II x3


Enough speed, tank and damage to do lvl 4. Did i use it to run lvl 4? yes. Do i use it now? Nope, i use tengu.


[Zealot, zealotrat]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized EM Membrane II
Energized Thermic Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

The zealot got only a bit of testing in it's own time, as i prefer hams/hml/cruise for missioning.

[Damnation, damnation]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II


Hobgoblin II x5


Damnation being a FLEET command ship is hardly a mainstream choice for missioning... But, tank and over 200 dps, as requested. Note, i didn't fly damnation into missions as i never looked at it *that* way.

Oh, and why every fit in this post is just fitted with omni tank, no implants and just t2 mods? Just to be as generic as it could be and not run into comments "well, it might work in this particular situation, but...", "well, some people have that implant slot already occupied" and "well, of course you can, but that fitting is plainly way too expensive/unobtainable"

And to point out that expensive/unobatainable fitting, here is a maller that can do lvl 4... Price? Hm... you might have to actually buy out CCP to get that one.

[Maller, maller, lol edition]
Draclira's Modified Heat Sink
Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Vizan's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Shaqil's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Shaqil's Modified Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Draclira's Modified Heat Sink

Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner
Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger
Draclira's Modified Cap Recharger

Ammatar Navy Focused Medium Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M
Ammatar Navy Focused Medium Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M
Ammatar Navy Focused Medium Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M
Ammatar Navy Focused Medium Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M
Ammatar Navy Focused Medium Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

+ implants, best ones boost it's meager 284 dps to a whooping 319 dps.

P.S. Maller is just for lols... i got that idea between 2 gulps of tea and i will probably be sahamed of it someday.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6216 - 2012-11-24 10:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
I would be ready to bet that my beam Baddon would beat those in completion times.

Yes, I'm fully aware that even Geddon is better for pve than Baddon.
Gunner
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#6217 - 2012-11-24 11:43:36 UTC
WTB Tracking Disruptor II BPO
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#6218 - 2012-11-24 12:47:06 UTC
Meolyne wrote:
Nope, you're wrong. New players won't stop playing because their Drake can't solo a Lvl4.

when i was "young", i had choice : Skill further than battlecruiser, or stick with this low dps high tanking s**t
I loved the drake, but... it was not meant to solo L4 anyway.

Tried with a Scorpion, lost it.
Tried with a Rokh and 425mm. Almost lost it (WTF my Beautiful Police Stick has terrible dps/range/capacitor !)
Then finally, i resigned myself to buy and fit a Raven. I hated the design but it worked pretty well.
You just can't AFK with this bird. But it's perfect to do L4, as long as you don't want to rush them with your ex-80M isk ship.

What i love with CCP, that they know the word NERF / Balanced.
Your stuff isn't obsolete after every patches and everybody's happy. (not counting guys flying a ship they know it would be nerfed someday (aka Drake) )

***
If you cannot do lvl4's in a Drake like it is now, you do it wrong. Very wrong. Lol, Caldari should train up to a BS to do lvl4? Then Matari should train up to BS to do dmg. How does this sound? And how many unsubscribes and ragequits would a such measure bring? But must admit on one thing. CCP knows the word NERF. Badly the word Balanced not quite so well.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#6219 - 2012-11-24 12:57:15 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:

People have done just that, and they didn't like the answers. Which is why you see Ravens (and a dozen other Caldari hulls) decorating hangars.

I don't know what people did, though you are definitely ignoring a lot of the Raven strengths. Range is not its only strength. Just look at the fit I showed : it's the king at 70km and beyond, and with the buff CM are receiving, it will only be better.

Problem is the MOTO in blob warfare is "resistance". Why ? Because that multiply the strength of your logistic ships. Should someone find a way to counter these logistic ships, or a nerf hit this combo (logi+resist), and this paradigm fall, leaving the place for something else.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#6220 - 2012-11-24 12:57:46 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
serras bang wrote:
Faora Zod wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Ubat Batuk wrote:
Of course, so let's further reduce the DPS... so it will take me 2 hours for a Level 4 mission! This is r etard...

No it's called train a ******* BS and large weapons like every other race to do a level 4, and stop whining.Roll


You should start thinking like a NEW player who has only been playing a couple of months, do you really think with the way the market is now that a newbie is going to be able to afford the couple of hundred million it takes to buy and fit a BS to do level 4s? Best day of my eve life was when i soloed my first level 4 in a Drake, i knew i was here to stay. If they are wanting to keep this game fun and interesting like CCP Fozzie claims it needs to stay fun and interesting for NEW players too. You slow down how fast it takes them to feel like the accomplished something on their own and they are going t o lose interest.


would also help if caldari actualy had a good bs for missions in the first place.

Yeesh, kids these days. The Raven was the primier level 4 boat for many years. It's fine as a level 4 ship. Much better than a Drake. Roll

edit - and most people do have to spend a couple hundred million for a BS. Unless, as you seem to expect, Faora, that every new player should train Caldari and fly a drake. But that's not a balanced game. Which is my whole point.

***
Maybe CCP must fix things and ppl could fly other race ships? And do a real balance? Simply refuse to understand why breaking good things equals improving bad things, except there's a idiotic solution needed.