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Ending Sec Status Grind? Killrights, bounties, and whatnot...

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Marvin Narville
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-11-24 03:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Marvin Narville
Zoctrine wrote:
Marvin Narville wrote:
Zoctrine wrote:
Sec Status grinding is a pain, IMHO as it should be. Buying your way into a quick fix is lame...


You lost me when you supported an aspect of a game which you described using words such as "grinding" and "pain". If you can identify an aspect of a >game< that is simply a grind, or painful, or even worse, a painful grind, then there is probably room for improvement.

I'm not advocating a "quick fix", but a "quick fix" also isn't the only alternative to a grinding painfully.

I don't know how much work it would take to implement something of this nature, but what if Sec status were further divided up between the NPC factions. So for instance, I could be -10 with the minmatar and gallente because i'm a douchy pirate who likes to explode things. However, i'm involved in some FW on the side, and when I make enemies go boom in the name of the Amarr, it improves my sec status specifically with them.

I dunno, just an idea, it would remove the painful grind, create incentive to pvp for the sake of pvp which seems pretty snazzy, and presumably it'd spice up FW a bit by giving futher incentives to go kill people on the other side. I see very few drawbacks to this, but as with anything else I am by no means an expert.

Honestly, doesn't even seem like it'd be that difficult to implement, you already have standings with those groups, that are partially governed in similar fashion.

Other benefits might be..regional trade hubs take on more importance as people gravitate towards areas they aren't outlawed from, potentially a more target rich environment in both high and low sec, which is never a bad thing, and perhaps a bit more of an immersion factor. You already get nasty warning messages when you are jump gating around an enemy empires space, seems like sec status would naturally reflect that fact.


EvE is about consequences and rewards, being a pirate may net you some juicy rewards, getting your sheet cleaner should not be a walk in the park nor play to win.

I apologize if I can't express myself better or clearer, English is not my first language.


I'm not suggesting you give them security status for free. I simply said, let them pvp to get it back. Eve is about consequences and rewards, not disputing that. Eve is also a game, and people usually play games to enjoy them. I simply proposed a way in which they could earn back security status without wanting to slit their wrists while they do so.

Edit: Also, seeing as this is a multiplayer game, my suggestion has the virtue of involving multiple players, which in itself is a fairly obvious improvement. Anytime you can promote or create incentive for interaction, as opposed to everyone sitting in a corner facing the wall playing whack-a-mole with mindless NPCs, you've probably done something correctly in an MMO, call me crazy though.
Zoctrine
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-11-24 03:45:31 UTC
Marvin Narville wrote:
Also, seeing as this is a multiplayer game, my suggestion has the virtue of involving multiple players, which in itself is a fairly obvious improvement. Anytime you can promote or create incentive for interaction, as opposed to everyone sitting in a corner facing the wall playing whack-a-mole with mindless NPCs, you've probably done something correctly in an MMO, call me crazy though.

I concur on this.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#23 - 2012-11-24 04:50:46 UTC
I think a lot of the carebear types who say that sec status should be a grind kind of forget that while tedious, that grind also makes the "bad guys" billions of ISK, especially if they go the whole -10 to -2 cycle. It's only half a punishment, then, right?

The whole idea of losing status by killing people, but gaining status by killing NPCs, is pants-on-head stupid. The current mechanic is stupid, and should be done away with entirely. A time-based mechanic, like that of your favorite Grand Theft Auto cops, would probably be way more fun. Depending on who you kill, where, and what kind of witnesses were present, you gain an outlaw flag that lasts anywhere from a few minutes to many hours (you can **** right off if you think that it should last weeks or months, though). And you should be able to pay off cops if you want.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Bobo Cindekela
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-11-24 04:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobo Cindekela
having sec status decline due to (vs. player) action and raise by (vs. npc) action or (market) transaction seems misaligned to me

how about sec raises by (time served) addressing questions in the help channel or (restitution) of victims losses?

if you dont want to do time, dont do crime?

You are about to engage in an arguement with a forum alt,  this is your final warning.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#25 - 2012-11-24 05:18:46 UTC
Bobo Cindekela wrote:
how about sec raises by (time served) addressing questions in the help channel or (restitution) of victims losses?

if you dont want to do time, dont do crime?

The concept of "time served" is fine, but definitely not in the way you advocate. Outlaw flags should be absolute, but short and temporary. The game isn't real life; locking up a player for months for shooting another is dumb. A few hours is more than enough, even for serious offenses, considering how quickly losses can be replaced (on the other hand, killing a freighter full of PLEXes shouldn't be more punishing than a T1-fit battlecruiser - player stupidity should play a role in that calculation).

Your restitution idea shouldn't ever be brought up at all. It's bad, it would be bad for the game, and it's very bad. It would essentially eliminate all crime in EVE, and there's no way that's a good thing.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-11-24 06:49:50 UTC
Removing the sec grind would be a nice counter to the Crimewatch/miner buff/canflip eradication.
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#27 - 2012-11-24 07:00:24 UTC
The bitter vets say sec used to go up passively over time, maybe bring that back too? But yeah, +1 to PVP sec increase and more options.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#28 - 2012-11-24 07:15:29 UTC
Aren't they already putting in the option to buy your way to +5 for ~150 million ISK, or did that change?
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Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-11-24 07:16:03 UTC
For discussion sake, what if there was no option to move back towards positive once a player heads down the negative path? While the loss for podding other players should be revised to not be such a drastic drop so quickly, once a player takes that step towards the "dark side", why should there be any chance of redemption?

This could create low sec trade hubs where negative sec players could buy and sell goods without worrying about stepping into goodie two-shoes lands. And while someone could state to just use an alt to trade directly, perhaps the direct dealings with a known negative stat pilot will push a subtle negative status onto the alt. Using a real life example, if I am considered a law abiding citizen and been seen dealing with known gang bangers, the police will keep an eye upon me too.

Just a thought instead of the quick fix, if any fix, ideas in this thread.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-11-24 07:22:10 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
For discussion sake, what if there was no option to move back towards positive once a player heads down the negative path? While the loss for podding other players should be revised to not be such a drastic drop so quickly, once a player takes that step towards the "dark side", why should there be any chance of redemption?

This could create low sec trade hubs where negative sec players could buy and sell goods without worrying about stepping into goodie two-shoes lands. And while someone could state to just use an alt to trade directly, perhaps the direct dealings with a known negative stat pilot will push a subtle negative status onto the alt. Using a real life example, if I am considered a law abiding citizen and been seen dealing with known gang bangers, the police will keep an eye upon me too.

Your "solution" to not being able to rebuild sec status would end up with everyone eventually having a lower sec status, especially on an open market and with public contracts. It's a bad idea to begin with, but then you open it up for griefing in the hopes of stopping griefing. Furthermore, you'd have to remove the moratorium on disposing of negative sec alts for the same reason: everyone would eventually get hit by that.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#31 - 2012-11-24 07:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Guttripper wrote:
For discussion sake, what if there was no option to move back towards positive once a player heads down the negative path? While the loss for podding other players should be revised to not be such a drastic drop so quickly, once a player takes that step towards the "dark side", why should there be any chance of redemption?

This could create low sec trade hubs where negative sec players could buy and sell goods without worrying about stepping into goodie two-shoes lands. And while someone could state to just use an alt to trade directly, perhaps the direct dealings with a known negative stat pilot will push a subtle negative status onto the alt. Using a real life example, if I am considered a law abiding citizen and been seen dealing with known gang bangers, the police will keep an eye upon me too.

Just a thought instead of the quick fix, if any fix, ideas in this thread.

Sure, why not. But you also have to agree that mission runners, upon killing any vessel of any faction while running a mission for a faction of their choosing, would immediately and permanently become hated enemies with the faction of the vessel they shot, to the point that entering that faction's space would immediately summon the system's whole faction fleet. Furthermore, they would never be able to dock at that faction's stations again. Oh, and those penalties would also apply with friends of the faction whose vessel was destroyed.

If we're going to go for the "permanent consequences in a game" thing, they should apply to everyone, right?

Mars Theran wrote:
Aren't they already putting in the option to buy your way to +5 for ~150 million ISK, or did that change?

Where did you hear that? As far as I know, no such thing was announced, or even talked about by the developers.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#32 - 2012-11-24 07:43:04 UTC
I think some of you guys are making it into a bigger deal than it is. We're just talking about sidestepping some grind, really. No path walked is absolute in eve. Things are dynamic... people might want to be a pirate for a while and once they have enough isk become a corrupt industrial. Looking at gameplay in binary terms or putting constraints on behavior/consequences and whatever are not really conducive to sandbox gameplay. Buying sec status w/ PLEX can be done by extension by turning PLEX (or aurem or whatever) into ISK and buying into the mechanic, but PLEX shouldn't be a direct facet of the mechanic. With regards to tags... well let's face it, grinding sucks. But all of us pay other people to grind. You buy a ship and some fool had to mine the minerals that went into it. Some other guy had to produce your ship. Others produced your mods or got them from killing NPCs (another kind of grind). We all pay for grind. So why do people grind at all? Ultimately it's for ISK. I hate grind. I've done a lot of grind. I'm sick to death of grind and I think if I have the ISK to pay someone else to grind and they are happy to take my ISK, there shouldn't be a problem. The problem with direct injection of PLEX is that people actually doing the grinding get cut out. That's where I think it can be a bit unfair. EvE is supposed to level the playing field... no buying a win with RL cash. If you are buying something in ISK it's fine because some other non-RL cash paying player is getting more ISK at your expense. If you are just paying cash to CCP you are in effect 'buying a win'. So that's why ISK trumps RL cash in game. I have no problem paying ridiculous amounts of ISK for sec status. I would have a problem if you could do it directly with cash. I'm not trying to convince anyone here. I'm just explaining why PLEX for sec isn't going to happen, and that CCP already has a pretty good grasp of this concept.

BTW - if you think aurem has any value you should play DUST before you go buying a whole lot of it. Just my 2 ISK...

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-11-24 07:54:01 UTC
Sec status should not repair itself over time. A crime was committed and someone needs to do the time. Now if a system was created so a criminal could pay another player to do it for them, that feels very EVE to me honestly.
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-11-24 08:15:52 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Sure, why not. But you also have to agree that mission runners, upon killing any vessel of any faction while running a mission for a faction of their choosing, would immediately and permanently become hated enemies with the faction of the vessel they shot, to the point that entering that faction's space would immediately summon the system's whole faction fleet. Furthermore, they would never be able to dock at that faction's stations again. Oh, and those penalties would also apply with friends of the faction whose vessel was destroyed.

If we're going to go for the "permanent consequences in a game" thing, they should apply to everyone, right?


I agree 110%... I was always baffled at how casual your enemy reacts around your presence. Instead of opening fire upon you, they seem more prone to rattle their sabres (the sword) and shake their fists until you make a move against them (again).

Whereas I have done the one mission GE a few times over the years (just do not have the real life time to do much in game, but I digress), just how many assets were stolen, lives lost (in a role playing sense), and ships destroyed for the Guristas? So why don't they send deadlier ships after me? Why not the option to pod me if they breach my ship and get to me? Why not set-up an ambush as I casually move from system to system in a shuttle?

As for the penalties to apply to friends of a faction - a cascading scale could be used. If I destroyed enough Gallente ships that they utterly hate me and you are friends to Gallente, there should be a negative between us. But I do not feel it should be a direct even exchange since that would be open for abuse.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#35 - 2012-11-24 08:22:33 UTC
Well, I'm surprised you agreed, because usually people come back with a "fuk u gankbear i shud playz how i wants" type of response.

But I was being sarcastic. Both of our ideas would be game-breaking, unless the effectiveness of all NPC police entities is significantly reduced. My idea is especially bad, because it would make the game not fun to play for a whole lot of people. Your idea just encourages alt usage.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-11-24 08:30:37 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Your "solution" to not being able to rebuild sec status would end up with everyone eventually having a lower sec status, especially on an open market and with public contracts. It's a bad idea to begin with, but then you open it up for griefing in the hopes of stopping griefing. Furthermore, you'd have to remove the moratorium on disposing of negative sec alts for the same reason: everyone would eventually get hit by that.


I would request that the penalty losses be revised to be not so drastic initially to avoid someone having an accidental moment to be stuck in a permanent hole. Splattering one pod could be explained as a self-defense moment. A couple thousand pods later, the authorities mark you as a serial killer. Dealing with one pod killing pilot does not get you noticed by the authorities. "Hidden" transactions with a known murderer should subtly affect those that directly deal with that person.

Revision to my initial idea - what if once you head down the negative path, you can work your way back up, but can never be positive? That is, one pod kill whether accidental or intentional, will have you at -0.01 no matter how much good you do - a Scarlet Letter per se?

I thought disposing of negative sec alts was a no-no with CCP? Not that I am naive to believe it is not done, but still...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#37 - 2012-11-24 08:39:02 UTC
You don't really "kill" anyone in EVE, and as such, there's no "murder" to speak of. In fact, pod losses on average amount to much lower financial losses than ship losses.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-11-24 08:45:23 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Well, I'm surprised you agreed, because usually people come back with a "fuk u gankbear i shud playz how i wants" type of response.

But I was being sarcastic. Both of our ideas would be game-breaking, unless the effectiveness of all NPC police entities is significantly reduced. My idea is especially bad, because it would make the game not fun to play for a whole lot of people. Your idea just encourages alt usage.


Nahhh - I am one of those older (bitter?) vets that remembers when Eve was truly cold and harsh. Now-a-days it seems (to me) to be a bit more along the lines of warm and fuzzy.

Our ideas would have to be fleshed out with changes to the current game. Adding our ideas "as is" would really cause the game to be lopsided to those not ~built~ that way.

"...it would make the game not fun to play for a whole lot of people." - it seems no matter what additions or changes CCP places in the game, people feeling they are the majority will complain long and loud.

"Your idea just encourages alt usage." - You mean not everyone has a cyno alt, a market checker / trade alt, a mission running alt, a PI alt, etc.?

Alright, I do not have a cyno alt since I do not fly cap ships... P

Thanks for the responses!
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-11-24 09:00:31 UTC
Gogela -

As I read your response, my first thought was "bribe".

Instead of a full-blown pardon, you bribed the local authorities and were given immunity for a certain amount of time? As you pass through the heart land area of those you bribed freely, as you reached the borders, you would have to repeat your bribe attempts. Perhaps using (new) skills and your Charisma to barter for passage. Offer too little ISK and the authorities feel insulted, openly attacking you while ~seeing~ you with now a worse status. Or pay too much and they will personally escort you across the system to the next gate. But once you leave the area and time has elapsed, you are seen as you were before your bribe (attempts) and must start again.

Perhaps a random percentage to always fail - you stumbled across the one straight and narrow Barney Fife so it is not always abused per se by just paying x amount each and every time. And the amounts are different too - one pass might be x amount, but lately the higher authorities have been watching those border patrols so now it will cost you extra...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#40 - 2012-11-24 09:07:26 UTC
Bribes would be pretty awesome, as long as they're not something ridiculous like the cost of a T3 hull.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted