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Help Me Understand Inventing (Complete With Example)
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Sethimothy
Chicken Manufacturing
#1 - 2012-11-20 18:15:00 UTC
Inventing is something I've always been interested in. I have a significant amount of SP invested in BPO researching and manufacturing, but a very bare minimum invested in Invention and it's something that I've found to be obtuse. It's something that, for lack of a better term, I've clearly done WRONG, when I've bothered to do it at all.

So today I'm going to bring up a specific example, and bring up my questions, to make my questions a little easier to make sense of and to perhaps answer the questions of others. It shows my assumptions of things, WHICH MAY BE FAULTY, so please feel free to correct as needed.

---

Let's say I want to use Invention on Antimatter Charge S Blueprints. We know that this will create, upon success, a BPC for Void S (a type of ammunition used in T2 Railguns.)

We know we need skills. All invention requires three skills, and this one needs:

Electromagnetic Physics
Gallente Encryption Methods
Plasma Physics

Each level in these skills gives a +1% chance to not failing horribly, and since this ammunition isn't a ship it gets the greatest base chance to succeed, at 40%. With all three of these at level one (a silly idea, as each can be trained to three in less than a day each) there is a 43% chance that a BPC for Void S will be created. Based on skills alone, the best we can hope for is a base 55% increase based on all skills at 55%.

For the sake of this invention, we are forsaking Decryptors, because they are expensive and we're just making ammo. We can get a bonus percent by using an item for reference. In this case, having some Void S ammo, a tech 2 item, would give about a 1% bonus. I'm not sure if a single piece of ammo is needed, or a full run of 100.

Next, we need three items:

Datacore - Electromagnetic Physics
Datacore - Plasma Physics
Incognito Data Interface

The Datacores can be bought from the market, or won through R&D points from select agents (hell if i Know which ones though.) The Incognito Data Interface is made from a BPO I have never seen, and can't find solid evidence of where exists; purchasing it off the market premade makes the whole thing rather unprofitable. All three of these are consumed whether or not the Invention is successful.

---

That's pretty much my understanding, and it's clear there's a lot wrong there, but I'm having difficulty hammering out what is wrong and how. Thus, the example provided. I want to reiterate, it is shared as A FLAWED EXAMPLE, and I know it's wrong; the issue is, I don't entirely understand why and how and could use your assistance in regards to this.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#2 - 2012-11-20 18:21:17 UTC
The data interface isn't consumed on invention. The bps can be found in data exploration sites but it's just easier to buy them now. Also, you need the antimatter blueprint copies. I suggest using maximum runs on the T1 BPCs to get the full 10 runs out of the T2 BPC.

Check the program in my sig for a calculator to see if a particular invented item is profitable.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-11-20 18:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevryn Takis
To find out what an R&D agent can do you need to visit the agent, right click on them and select "agent info". This will ist what reserch skills they have... you need to match their skill levels and the min corp standing requirements for acessing them.
After that it's pretty much passive unless you want to visit them daily to gain extra R&D points.

BPO's can be copied at either NPC stations with research/copy slots of in POS research labs. Simple BPO's like ammo BPO's don't require any additional materials to copy. More complex BPO's do.

Whether you use max run BPCs or single run BPCs depends on what you're invernting. I highly recommend Caltech Shipyards
notha atfast
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-11-20 19:12:57 UTC
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#5 - 2012-11-20 19:35:32 UTC
Sethimothy wrote:
Inventing is something I've always been interested in. I have a significant amount of SP invested in BPO researching and manufacturing, but a very bare minimum invested in Invention and it's something that I've found to be obtuse. It's something that, for lack of a better term, I've clearly done WRONG, when I've bothered to do it at all.

So today I'm going to bring up a specific example, and bring up my questions, to make my questions a little easier to make sense of and to perhaps answer the questions of others. It shows my assumptions of things, WHICH MAY BE FAULTY, so please feel free to correct as needed.

---

Let's say I want to use Invention on Antimatter Charge S Blueprints. We know that this will create, upon success, a BPC for Void S (a type of ammunition used in T2 Railguns.)

We know we need skills. All invention requires three skills, and this one needs:

Electromagnetic Physics
Gallente Encryption Methods
Plasma Physics

Each level in these skills gives a +1% chance to not failing horribly, and since this ammunition isn't a ship it gets the greatest base chance to succeed, at 40%. With all three of these at level one (a silly idea, as each can be trained to three in less than a day each) there is a 43% chance that a BPC for Void S will be created. Based on skills alone, the best we can hope for is a base 55% increase based on all skills at 55%.

For the sake of this invention, we are forsaking Decryptors, because they are expensive and we're just making ammo. We can get a bonus percent by using an item for reference. In this case, having some Void S ammo, a tech 2 item, would give about a 1% bonus. I'm not sure if a single piece of ammo is needed, or a full run of 100.

Next, we need three items:

Datacore - Electromagnetic Physics
Datacore - Plasma Physics
Incognito Data Interface

The Datacores can be bought from the market, or won through R&D points from select agents (hell if i Know which ones though.) The Incognito Data Interface is made from a BPO I have never seen, and can't find solid evidence of where exists; purchasing it off the market premade makes the whole thing rather unprofitable. All three of these are consumed whether or not the Invention is successful.

---

That's pretty much my understanding, and it's clear there's a lot wrong there, but I'm having difficulty hammering out what is wrong and how. Thus, the example provided. I want to reiterate, it is shared as A FLAWED EXAMPLE, and I know it's wrong; the issue is, I don't entirely understand why and how and could use your assistance in regards to this.



The math is a trifle more complicated. Not a great deal more, but a little more.

http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/invention/ (or http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/ if you want it integrated into a blueprint calculator)

And it gets quite different when you throw in a meta level item.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Lolar55
Banana Toaster
#6 - 2012-11-20 20:15:36 UTC
Its good to use decryptors when trying to invent expensive ship.Roll
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2012-11-20 22:37:35 UTC
Brian Leetch
McCloister Limited
#8 - 2012-11-23 01:48:48 UTC
I'm new to manufacturing and was looking to get into invention. I was flying around high sec and found it impossible to find a station that didn't have a wait time for blueprint copying. Most stations only had ten slots available and the quickest wait time i found was 1-2 days whereas the longest was almost 260 days. Is this a common occurrence making the best way to get into T2 manufacturing through copying by putting up my own POS?
Zinn Irate
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-11-23 03:18:39 UTC
Brian Leetch wrote:
I'm new to manufacturing and was looking to get into invention. I was flying around high sec and found it impossible to find a station that didn't have a wait time for blueprint copying. Most stations only had ten slots available and the quickest wait time i found was 1-2 days whereas the longest was almost 260 days. Is this a common occurrence making the best way to get into T2 manufacturing through copying by putting up my own POS?


You can also find them in low sec, usually, if you scout around a bit.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#10 - 2012-11-23 03:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Sethimothy wrote:
That's pretty much my understanding, and it's clear there's a lot wrong there, but I'm having difficulty hammering out what is wrong and how.

The only thing that actually matters that you listed and is wrong in your example is that you mentioned the interface as a consumable, but it's not used up.
IIRC, the interface is not even locked down in the invention process, you just need it there to start the job - so you only ever need to buy one of each of them once, regardless how many parallel jobs you're running with each of them, and you can pretty much neglect those cost in any lengthier invention business.

It doesn't really matter whether you know where datacores or interfaces actually come from, what matters is how much their value is (whether you get them yourself or buy them from the market doesn't really noticeably change their market value, the only savings you might make are the razor-thin trader margins and/or your own broker fees, at most, so not really that much of a big deal overall).
So, overall, you just need to know roughly how much datacores cost,

You also forgot the T1 BPC needed to start the invention process, that one is consumed, and while it's relatively cheap for your example (you still want a max-run one either way), it's less cheap for other invention jobs (especially those you want to also use decryptors with, like ship invention ; less important but still relevant for jobs with a meta-item optional consumable, seldom profitable to use either way, mostly just for some modules that have really cheap decent meta items).

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#11 - 2012-11-23 04:49:16 UTC
Step 1.

Train science to Level 1.

Step 2.

Head to Jita, dock 4-4 trade hub, buy Heat sink 1 BPO (unresearched, researched, same thing).

Step 3.

Make max run (300 runs) copy's (usually 20 at a time).

Step 4.

Take Max run BPC to station with invention slots and run the invention.

Step 5.

Underpants!

Step 6.

Profit!
Sturmwolke
#12 - 2012-11-23 11:13:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
T2 invention is easy to grasp, its cost is also easy to ballpark (which usually works out at 300-500K per run). Comparatively, T3 is even easier in terms of process flow, however its cost calculations gets quite complicated (due to the different relic type, relic pricing and random output) if you want the optimal solution. It's funny how CCP wanted to make it easier, but actually ended up with a convoluted schema for the players.

If you're doing casual T2 invention, it's often easier to ballpark a 40% success rate (for modules/ammo) :
1 - Racial encryption skill at least L3
2 - Related science skill at least L3 (L4 preferred)

Consumables for T2 invention are:
1 - BPC
2 - Datacores

Notes:
Racial data tuner/interface are not consumed and can be reused.
Always dual-skill your inventor as a T2 manufacturer. Those science skill works synergistically as pre-requisites for T2 manufacturing.
Always use MAX RUN BPCs for T2 modules/ammo invention. Exceptions to this are ship, rig ... and possibly long copy BPCs* (e.g prototype cloaking device, etc).

* depends on player
Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#13 - 2012-11-23 21:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffy Sheep
Don't laugh...


I've read a bunch of invention stuff and even tried a couple with mining crystals. Something I haven't got my head around yet though and seem to have missed in my reading, is how you increase the runs in the tech 2 bpc you've produced. Or on the bpc before the invention for that matter.

From the two I've done, I figured that the material level etc on the bpo you made the copy from doesn't affect the resulting bpc or tech 2 variant.

Seeing the tech 2 bpc with 1 run remaining is a bit depressing.

The way invention is done in this game seems very clunky and awkward. Like it was designed by an engineer and not a normal human being :D
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-11-23 21:58:17 UTC
Brian Leetch wrote:
I'm new to manufacturing and was looking to get into invention. I was flying around high sec and found it impossible to find a station that didn't have a wait time for blueprint copying. Most stations only had ten slots available and the quickest wait time i found was 1-2 days whereas the longest was almost 260 days. Is this a common occurrence making the best way to get into T2 manufacturing through copying by putting up my own POS?



NPC stations allow you to queue up items so a free spot isn't required to setup a research job.

For example if a copy station has 2 days wait time you can still install the job. Your job will get queued up. If you're job is a 10 day long job what will happen is your job will start after the first job finishes, making your total wait time 12 days.

You're not likely to find any ME, or copy stations totally available with no wait, its just not going to happen.


Oh and for those who are wondering why some stations have a 100+ day wait times on a station slot here is a little secret most people don't know about, or don't like to share.

Lets stay a station slot has a 20 day wait. You install 2 30 day jobs on the 1 slot (bringing the total to 70 days). Once the first 20 day job completes you now have 1 slot with 60 days still on it.

What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these.

Once the 5 1 day jobs complete, you again cancel your 2 30 day jobs, re-load 5 more 1 day jobs, and 2 30 day jobs again. And repeat as long as you want to control this research slot.


This basically allows you to "own" that research slot since no one will never put a job at the end of your 60 day wait time.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-11-23 22:04:46 UTC
Fluffy Sheep wrote:
Something I haven't got my head around yet though and seem to have missed in my reading, is how you increase the runs in the tech 2 bpc you've produced.


When you make the T1 copies, specify the max runs possible. For mining crystals I believe that's a 100 run BPC. That will (in the absence of any decryptors), result in a 10 run T2 BPC if the invention succeeds
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-11-23 22:06:38 UTC
Styth spiting wrote:
What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these.


Cancelling a job does not free up the line. So if you set up and then cancel two 30 day jobs, you're left with a line with a waiting time of 60 days.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-11-23 22:19:41 UTC
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Styth spiting wrote:
What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these.


Cancelling a job does not free up the line. So if you set up and then cancel two 30 day jobs, you're left with a line with a waiting time of 60 days.


Really since when? I haven't done this in a long time but had a alts corp mate say they were doing this with copy jobs a few months ago and it sounded like it still worked.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#18 - 2012-11-23 22:53:29 UTC
Styth spiting wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:
Styth spiting wrote:
What you then do is cancel your 2 jobs (obviously do this when no one is in station) and load up the slot with your 5 1 day ME jobs and then again load up 2 30 day jobs after these.


Cancelling a job does not free up the line. So if you set up and then cancel two 30 day jobs, you're left with a line with a waiting time of 60 days.


Really since when? I haven't done this in a long time but had a alts corp mate say they were doing this with copy jobs a few months ago and it sounded like it still worked.



Since before I started. And it's explicitly to stops this kind of shenanigans.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-11-23 23:19:03 UTC
Well good to know. I'll still have to test it out sometime in the next few days to see what does happen.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#20 - 2012-11-24 01:01:32 UTC
Styth spiting wrote:
Well good to know. I'll still have to test it out sometime in the next few days to see what does happen.


If you really want to test it, test it. But it sure as hell doesn't work. All it will do is create an absurdly long queue for the slot.
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