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In need of a new freighter tier.
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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#1 - 2012-11-23 01:31:07 UTC
last year, a new tier of battlecruiser came into the game.

Since then, even tho the insurance was removed for pilot who were destroyed by concord, we've seen a big raise in freighter ganking. (see full story in the crime & punishment board)

It is now possible, with some skilled pilot, to destroy a freighter with 5 skilled pilot with those new battlecruiser.

Of course, this require a great amount of technic and skill.

So, we think that now that we have perfected the courier via freighter on big scale, and then that some other corp perfected the method of killing them without much loss, it's time for the industrialist to have a new toy.

We discussed a lot on our internal channel about what such a freighter might be. Bigger shield/armor? Low slot? Faster align? It should be better then a regular freighter, and require more skill (different from JF). We just ask a way to counter those kill.

There is, of course, the use of a webber that can be involved, but not everyone can afford 2 accounts.

Jump Freighter are not the solution, they are not designed that way.
Orlok Raven
Technitium Group
#2 - 2012-11-23 01:34:42 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
last year, a new tier of battlecruiser came into the game.

Since then, even tho the insurance was removed for pilot who were destroyed by concord, we've seen a big raise in freighter ganking. (see full story in the crime & punishment board)

It is now possible, with some skilled pilot, to destroy a freighter with 5 skilled pilot with those new battlecruiser.

Of course, this require a great amount of technic and skill.

So, we think that now that we have perfected the courier via freighter on big scale, and then that some other corp perfected the method of killing them without much loss, it's time for the industrialist to have a new toy.

We discussed a lot on our internal channel about what such a freighter might be. Bigger shield/armor? Low slot? Faster align? It should be better then a regular freighter, and require more skill (different from JF). We just ask a way to counter those kill.

There is, of course, the use of a webber that can be involved, but not everyone can afford 2 accounts.

Jump Freighter are not the solution, they are not designed that way.


/signed
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2012-11-23 02:14:18 UTC
ur the guy who wanted the sec status of gank hot spots increased...so ur serious??

u could just avoid them, use scouts or follow ur freighter with logi friends/alts.

if not, u could always transport less each time or otherwise reduce the value of ur cargo.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#4 - 2012-11-23 02:32:43 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
ur the guy who wanted the sec status of gank hot spots increased...so ur serious??

u could just avoid them, use scouts or follow ur freighter with logi friends/alts.

if not, u could always transport less each time or otherwise reduce the value of ur cargo.



I though this would come up.

we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. how low you want us to go?

I already said that not everyone can afford a scout. we should not have to get a scout. Freighter were made to be able to transport a whole lot of stuff. if anyone can gank them easely, what's the use?

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#5 - 2012-11-23 03:15:31 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
last year, a new tier of battlecruiser came into the game.

Since then, even tho the insurance was removed for pilot who were destroyed by concord, we've seen a big raise in freighter ganking. (see full story in the crime & punishment board)

It is now possible, with some skilled pilot, to destroy a freighter with 5 skilled pilot with those new battlecruiser.

Of course, this require a great amount of technic and skill.

So, we think that now that we have perfected the courier via freighter on big scale, and then that some other corp perfected the method of killing them without much loss, it's time for the industrialist to have a new toy.

We discussed a lot on our internal channel about what such a freighter might be. Bigger shield/armor? Low slot? Faster align? It should be better then a regular freighter, and require more skill (different from JF). We just ask a way to counter those kill.

There is, of course, the use of a webber that can be involved, but not everyone can afford 2 accounts.

Jump Freighter are not the solution, they are not designed that way.

Freighters do need to have their ehp adjusted, since they were balanced around Battleship-ganking costs. Whether this is strictly an actual addition or the addition of a low slot (for a DCU), either would suffice.

But agreed--there needs to be a change since its much cheaper for gankers to pop freighters vs the ever rising cost of freighters.

Additionally, there should be an additional freighter tier (or maybe a couple): 1) one with less space than the big ones but way more than the biggest Industrial and 2) one with more ehp/less space/DCU slot, etc.

And before people harp on that Orcas exist and fill this gap, Orcas require mining-related training, which doesn't make a lick of sense when your character has industrial/freighters trained.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2012-11-23 03:24:45 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
ur the guy who wanted the sec status of gank hot spots increased...so ur serious??

u could just avoid them, use scouts or follow ur freighter with logi friends/alts.

if not, u could always transport less each time or otherwise reduce the value of ur cargo.



I though this would come up.

we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. how low you want us to go?

You're assuming that the gank was made for profit reasons. Sometimes it can be to send a message (which can have wider effects). Or maybe IT IS for profit and gankers are simply getting paid by another entity behind the scenes.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
I already said that not everyone can afford a scout.

"Tactical tradeoffs." You want to be safer? Get a scout. You can't afford one? Then you have to make a risk assessment on whether or not you think you can make it unmolested.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
we should not have to get a scout.

What makes you so special that you should not need a scout?

Even PvP pilots are called "idiots" for moving battleships or capitals without a scout or escort.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Freighter were made to be able to transport a whole lot of stuff. if anyone can gank them easely, what's the use?

You make it sound like they have no use now that people have realized that ganking a freighter can be done efficiently. This is not the case. They can still do their job... it is you, the player, who must adjust... not the game.


Also... the Teir 3 battlecruisers may be able to pump out more DPS (and thus require fewer numbers to perform a gank) than the old gank ships of choice... but they are also more expensive. Overall... the cost of suicide ganking has not increased or decreased by all that much.
The only thing that has happened is that the people doing it are more visible than before.

How did you Veterans start?
Minty Moon
#7 - 2012-11-23 03:48:05 UTC
you dont need 2 accounts yourself, maybe its just a matter of hiring another corpy to scout for you. And charging a bit extra for freighter services or paying someone to help guard you. Perhaps hire command ships or command T3's to boost your defenses?

I whole heartedly understand it is annoying and troublesome. But realize they are working as a group in some way to kill you, so doesn't it make sense that you will have to work as a group to counter it?

(Player Opened Direct Wormholes) (Expanding on Wormholes)
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#8 - 2012-11-23 05:04:51 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Red Frog Rufen wrote:


I though this would come up.

we've lost freighter with 300m worth of stuff.. how low you want us to go?

You're assuming that the gank was made for profit reasons. Sometimes it can be to send a message (which can have wider effects). Or maybe IT IS for profit and gankers are simply getting paid by another entity behind the scenes.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
I already said that not everyone can afford a scout.

"Tactical tradeoffs." You want to be safer? Get a scout. You can't afford one? Then you have to make a risk assessment on whether or not you think you can make it unmolested.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
we should not have to get a scout.

What makes you so special that you should not need a scout?

Even PvP pilots are called "idiots" for moving battleships or capitals without a scout or escort.

Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Freighter were made to be able to transport a whole lot of stuff. if anyone can gank them easely, what's the use?

You make it sound like they have no use now that people have realized that ganking a freighter can be done efficiently. This is not the case. They can still do their job... it is you, the player, who must adjust... not the game.


Also... the Teir 3 battlecruisers may be able to pump out more DPS (and thus require fewer numbers to perform a gank) than the old gank ships of choice... but they are also more expensive. Overall... the cost of suicide ganking has not increased or decreased by all that much.
The only thing that has happened is that the people doing it are more visible than before.


well, why would everyone in this game get new ships once in a while but us?

freighters in my exemple, with less then 300m in their cargo, were in most case really anonymous and in NPC corp. what kind of message is that? it's a message that "hey, look at us, we're ganking you for fun because it's easy!"

trust me, we have ajusted a lot in the last few months. we are not here to complain about ganking, we are here to ask if it's possible to have a new ship.
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#9 - 2012-11-23 05:07:03 UTC
Minty Moon wrote:
you dont need 2 accounts yourself, maybe its just a matter of hiring another corpy to scout for you. And charging a bit extra for freighter services or paying someone to help guard you. Perhaps hire command ships or command T3's to boost your defenses?

I whole heartedly understand it is annoying and troublesome. But realize they are working as a group in some way to kill you, so doesn't it make sense that you will have to work as a group to counter it?


hmm, we charge 500k a jump.

with blue frog (which uses scout and webber) we charge at least 3x that.

so, you're telling me we should charge 1.5-2m per jump minimum by hiring scout and webber all the time?

i'm pretty sure even goons wouldn't like that price hike to move their ship/loot to/from Uedama.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2012-11-23 06:21:59 UTC
I was going to come in and mock but.. I use red frog a LOT so.. =<

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Laurence Pinkitin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-11-23 07:41:00 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Minty Moon wrote:
you dont need 2 accounts yourself, maybe its just a matter of hiring another corpy to scout for you. And charging a bit extra for freighter services or paying someone to help guard you. Perhaps hire command ships or command T3's to boost your defenses?

I whole heartedly understand it is annoying and troublesome. But realize they are working as a group in some way to kill you, so doesn't it make sense that you will have to work as a group to counter it?


hmm, we charge 500k a jump.

with blue frog (which uses scout and webber) we charge at least 3x that.

so, you're telling me we should charge 1.5-2m per jump minimum by hiring scout and webber all the time?

i'm pretty sure even goons wouldn't like that price hike to move their ship/loot to/from Uedama.


wow 500k a jump? It would take over 2k jumps to pay off a ship...yall are selling yourselves short.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#12 - 2012-11-23 08:59:06 UTC
I can see the need for a mini freighter. I can see that it would be a nice addition.

Just a few things to take into account.

Chances are, it wouldn't hold much more than 200,000m3.
I believe it's EHP, wouldn't be much higher than current freighters and may even be lower.
You would still get ganked.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-11-23 09:12:53 UTC
Laurence Pinkitin wrote:
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Minty Moon wrote:
you dont need 2 accounts yourself, maybe its just a matter of hiring another corpy to scout for you. And charging a bit extra for freighter services or paying someone to help guard you. Perhaps hire command ships or command T3's to boost your defenses?

I whole heartedly understand it is annoying and troublesome. But realize they are working as a group in some way to kill you, so doesn't it make sense that you will have to work as a group to counter it?


hmm, we charge 500k a jump.

with blue frog (which uses scout and webber) we charge at least 3x that.

so, you're telling me we should charge 1.5-2m per jump minimum by hiring scout and webber all the time?

i'm pretty sure even goons wouldn't like that price hike to move their ship/loot to/from Uedama.


wow 500k a jump? It would take over 2k jumps to pay off a ship...yall are selling yourselves short.



Very good point. At what point does operating on such small margins become the reason for what seems to be unrelated failures?

Something as valuable as a loaded freighter, should never even undock without an escort of some sort. An alt that can web and provide some defensive fleet bonuses doesn't take all that much training. You are losing ships because you are cutting corners on security.
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#14 - 2012-11-23 22:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Frog Rufen
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

Very good point. At what point does operating on such small margins become the reason for what seems to be unrelated failures?

Something as valuable as a loaded freighter, should never even undock without an escort of some sort. An alt that can web and provide some defensive fleet bonuses doesn't take all that much training. You are losing ships because you are cutting corners on security.


that's not even the point. we run 10k contracts per month, and we lose 3 or 4 ships a month, of those, 2 are pilots mistake (taking more then they should or double-wraping) and the other 2 are random ganks, miscomm within the gank team, or other reasons.

so, we're not cutting corners on security, we adapted to the new situation, we're not double-wraping anymore to show exactly what we're carrying, we're not going AFK thru the problematic systems. We're now sharing the risk among every member.

500k per jump is what we think our time worth with those ship.

the point of this request is : We would love a new tier of freighter. there havn't been a lot of new logistics toys beside mining and salvaging for a long time.

A tier 2 freighter could have or do many things, and since it would require more skill, it should be better then a tier 1 freighter. not another version with less cargo and more armor. the same way other type of ship tier works.

Some ideas:

- more shield/armor/resist.
- Low slot to be able to tank it.
- fuel consumption if you want to align faster.
- modulable cargo bay, based on the Orca, that you could resize. (ship/corp/regular hangar) (not sure if the current tech could allow this)

feel free to suggest your ideas here!

Mag's wrote:
I can see the need for a mini freighter. I can see that it would be a nice addition.

Just a few things to take into account.

Chances are, it wouldn't hold much more than 200,000m3.
I believe it's EHP, wouldn't be much higher than current freighters and may even be lower.
You would still get ganked.


that's already in place, it's the Orca.

and yes, of course, a new ship would still be gankable, just as the JF is gankable. we don't want to be ingankable, we want more options, just like everyone else.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#15 - 2012-11-24 02:07:38 UTC
when the new logi cruisers come out it wont take much skilling or isk to set up a bunch of logi pilots to follow u around and rep u once u start taking fire.

if ur costs are going up because of ganks, then increase ur prices and have ur customers foot the bill. thats what real corps do.
ask urself: is it still worth it? if not, find another profession.

+1 mini freighters tho (ones with less tank and capacity)

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#16 - 2012-11-24 02:49:25 UTC
Given the decreasing cost of alpha damage (ie: tier 3 battlecruisers) it makes sense for the rest of the universe to adapt.

It seems reasonable for either another tech II freighter that is EHP focused with somewhat less hauling capacity (75% of base?). Or another tier of frieghter that has higher EHP at the expense of capacity (50% - 60% of base?)
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#17 - 2012-11-24 04:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Frog Rufen
Jin alPatar wrote:
Given the decreasing cost of alpha damage (ie: tier 3 battlecruisers) it makes sense for the rest of the universe to adapt.

It seems reasonable for either another tech II freighter that is EHP focused with somewhat less hauling capacity (75% of base?). Or another tier of frieghter that has higher EHP at the expense of capacity (50% - 60% of base?)



why should it be one at the expense of another, if more skill are required? are tier 3 BC less effective in any ways then the tier 2?
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#18 - 2012-11-24 04:59:54 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
why should it be one at the expense of another, if more skill are required? are tier 3 BC less effective in any ways then the tier 2?


T3 BCs have very small tanks, and don't have drones (Talos excepted).

Having said that, I would love to see a new freighter.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-11-24 05:03:55 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:

- modulable cargo bay, based on the Orca, that you could resize. (ship/corp/regular hangar) (not sure if the current tech could allow this)


Since Tech 2 stuff is suppose to be specialized, how about a Tech 3 Orca like ship. Have cargo subsystems to add how much and which types of cargo bays you want, or even offensive or defensive buffs.
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#20 - 2012-11-24 05:16:01 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Red Frog Rufen wrote:

- modulable cargo bay, based on the Orca, that you could resize. (ship/corp/regular hangar) (not sure if the current tech could allow this)


Since Tech 2 stuff is suppose to be specialized, how about a Tech 3 Orca like ship. Have cargo subsystems to add how much and which types of cargo bays you want, or even offensive or defensive buffs.


that would be awesome, but I doubt they are going to make any new Tech 3 soon. :)
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