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[Updated] How to repopulate nullsec - a question for highsec/WH players (and CCP) First post
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FadeIN Fr0St

Garoun Investment Bank

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 58

#261 - 2011-10-20 20:40:34 UTC

Large Collidable Object wrote:

I've said it numerous times: An actual goal for small roaming gangs in nullsec like raidable moonmining arrays.

I absolutely loathe Blobwarfare, structure grind and timers giving the defender days of time to get their super-blob in place and there is no single strategic/financial goal to roam nullsec in a small gang except some desperate killmail e-peening.

Likewise, there's no incentive for sov-holders to defend their space against small roaming gangs - poses are safe, bots warp to pos-shields, so why bother with a couple of ants crawling around my backyard if they can't even steal a crumb from my cake?

Dominion warfare with all its structure grind and timers encourages the unpopulated supercap wasteland we currently have in eve's 0.0.

I left 0.0 well before dominion, because I was somewhat bored with the actual pointlessness of small gangs, despite having had great fights (used to be in CH back then) and left for FW, which unfortunately turned out to be completely broken.

After a while, I ended up in a merc alliance that unfortunately ended up in that arena-like abomination providence had become and left as soon as they got involved in that BS, so I didn't really get to experience dominion warfare in its full glory...

The last time, I rejoined 0.0 for a couple of months earlier this year to make sure the NC would be killed properly this time - and boy was I glad to leave after its demise was certain.

Blobs, grind, timers, blobs, grind, timers, more blobs...

Unfortunately, that's all current mechanics encourage people to do - once that's changed, I'll probably give it another go, until then, I hope for the promised changes to FW to give that another go...

This 100%. When ever i login as a casual player, there is no time for anything in 0.0 really. Now I just play out there cause I really like the players in the corp i am in, and with them I can jump into a plex, or some pvp really fast(for that I am lucky, most corps it is a chore to get anyone in null to do anything other then mega blob). They are pretty active all the time. Also still need to grind out 2.2 more of my neg sec status. Going -10 was fun, but damn it takes alot of grinding to get it back up:(

I also like flying with the RAWR guys, the FC I fly with from time to time there is maybe the funnest fc in the game. And he dose not cry like a little girl when something dose not go his way Cry

High Sec players are also a million times funnier in local then any 0.0 troll could ever wish to be.

"All hail Wang ... the little fella in Command. When 'trouble' starts to spread, I'm sure he will rise to the occasion."

Azahni Vah'nos (Best reply ever)

Lharanai

Fools of the Blue Oyster

Likes received: 216

#262 - 2011-10-20 20:52:58 UTC | Edited by: Lharanai

Adelphie wrote:

Thanks for your replies so far - I'm glad that this has turned into a constructive thread.

I was thinking back to why I first went to nullsec and why I stayed there. I apologise in advance that there is a long rambling bit of nostalgia before I get to my point.

When I was only a couple of months old I found myself in my newly purchased Caracal which I barely had the skills to fly - but I had aspirations. I didn't want to just fly a ****** t1 fit ship, I wanted to strand out from the crowd - I wanted to fit my ship in a way that most players could only dream about... I wanted a t2 fit Caracal.

This is something that I couldn't afford running my missions alone , so I needed a new source of income. I'd heard about the riches of nulsec so decided to take a risk and fly out to an area that the map said was not populated. I traveled through lowsec and took my first jump to null... but there was a problem. A throax and a a kestrel were waiting for me. I held cloak and my heart started pounding eventually I decided to just try and warp and to my surprise I didn't get caught. I was, however, shaking with adrenaline. A game had never done that to me before

I got to the system I wanted to find and eventually after doing some ratting in this system I found a Dread Guristas Spawn. The loot fairy was kind to me, so not only could I afford to T2 fit my caracal, I could also afford a drake to the envy of my corpies. Those who know me in game will realise that this was the start of quite a special relationship...

Anyway - to my point. When I began the riches of null allowed me to play the game in a way I wouldn't have been able to otherwise, and the thrill of taking risks kept me there.

At the moment the isk available to in hisec has increased over the past few years, whilst the price of ships and mods has fallen dramatically. This means that the levels of isk required for even faction ships are within reach of the average highsec player without too much creativity or risk, which in my opinion should not be the way it is (which I know a lot of people will disagree with).

Now making stuff more expensive on its own won't work - it has to be done in conjunction with making lowsec more accessible, and there's been some excellent suggestions in this thread of how to do this. My personal idea would be to increase the number of WH from empire to null about 10 fold, which would make nulsec more accessible and camping harder, although I haven't thought this through very much.

It's also important to note that the disparity in isk between null and highsec isn't an issue in my opinion - There is more than enough isk in null for those who know where to look. The issue is that the average player simply doesn't need the level of income it yields.

Agreed, give us casual Highsec Dwellers a good reason to go to null and we will, but as it is now, the ratio of losing isk vs making isk is for a casual player in a small corp just to much in favor of losing ISK.

And I speak from a little tiny bit of experience and not just from what I have heard, as I tried to make ISK in null and ended poorer in High Sec, maybe I have not tried enough, but as mentioned I am a casual player.

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously

Caldari Provisions Caldari State 643
Skunk Gracklaw Caldari Provisions Caldari State Likes received: 643	#263 - 2011-10-20 21:08:11 UTC Lharanai wrote: maybe I have not tried enough Considering you can make more isk shooting gate rats in nullsec than you can running a level 4 mission I'm going to agree.

Lord Ryan

True Xero

Likes received: 902

#264 - 2011-10-20 21:14:06 UTC

Did not read all the post in this thread!

Somethings that bother me about null corps.

I join one corp to play one game.

Fourms: I have to register on a "minimum" of 2 forums. One you actually had to change your password every month. *Another if any security issue and you had to reregister on every related page app/site/forum. We up against PL so it was a regular thing.

TS/Vent/Mumble: I have to register on a minimum of 2 voice servers related verification sites. *see above. One corp/alliance actually required you to be registered/verified on all blue alliance coms.

Jabber/IRC: Really are we teenage girls? Do you want me to hold you hand too?

Time zone: Eve in general seems to be an EU game. With timers and such you will see US ops. These ops seem to end up with you logging in space in the middle of nowhere. With the retraction happening during the EU TZ when I'm at work. So I can suicide and eat the cost of ship, or get ganked traveling 60 jumps alone and eat the cost of ship. Which leads to the stupid loses speach. I'm sorry are you paying for my ships. Are you paying for my sub?

Running out of time so warpping up. I know this these things seem trivial. But I have limited time to play, and thats what I want to do! If I have to spend more time manageing out of game programs than playing in game, I'm going to find something else to do.
You kind of suck the fun out of the game.

Commonly scene on recruitment pages: mandatory/non-negotiable if you don't like GFTO. Cool I'm out but stop crying the forums because people don't want to play with you. You'll have to make do with the sheap that will do anything to have a friend.

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.

Alice Katsuko

Perkone

Caldari State

Likes received: 239

#265 - 2011-10-20 21:43:40 UTC

I've noticed that most of the complaints aren't about nullsec so much as they are about the idea of nullsec. Quite a few folk seem to think that nullsec should cater to their personal playstyle, regardless of whether that playstyle has any real relationship with what the purpose of nullsec is.

Quite a few folk are under the impression that nullsec organizations are hostile to smaller alliances or corporations. This is not true. Quite a few alliances are more than happy to take in new corporations, or help new alliances stake a claim on their own little corner of space. However, nullsec alliances are very much hostile to lone-wolf type corporations and alliances. This is as things should be.

Nullsec was never meant to be a playground for small gangs, though small gangs are not uncommon there outside of giant sovereignty fights; nullsec was never meant to be a solo PvP wonderland, although solo PvP can be found there. Nullsec is instead about cooperation and player enterprise, and what happens when the interests of two groups of players collide.

Nullsec is not about Joe Lonestar and his merry band of antisocial misfits, who rampage and pillage for no apparent reason across the land, and but somehow also have an invulnerable fortress of solitude all of their own that no force can break, no matter how much effort and time that force expends. Nullsec is about people coming together and working together, for mutual benefit, on a scale unimaginable in any other game. A corporation or an alliance that is willing to work with others will always find a home in nullsec.

It is true that owning sovereign space requires a level of discipline not found in high-sec missioning corporations. It requires pilots to subsume their personal wants and needs for the needs of the organization to a greater degree than some players are willing to tolerate. There is nothing wrong with looking only for personal gratification. But a pilot who only thinks of his personal wants has no "right" to sovereign space, much as a pilot who is too lazy to make ISK has no "right" to expensive ships. Players who do not want to work with others should not complain when they cannot reap the fruits of cooperation.

Quite a few folk also seem to be under the impression that nullsec warfare is all about giant sovereignty blobs. This is also not true. Sovereignty blobs are fairly rare outside of giant multi-alliance contests, and such contests are rather infrequent. As has been pointed out numerous times, there is plenty of small and medium-sized warfare in nullsec. The price of living in nullsec, of course, is that sometimes an alliance that mostly runs small PvP has to help its bigger neighbors.

Emiko P'eng

Likes received: 152

#266 - 2011-10-20 21:44:47 UTC

Adelphie wrote:

So my question to non-null sec players - What keeps you out of null, and what features would you like to see which might entice you to venture out here?

Well as an EVE player of 5.5 Months.

I have dabbled in Low-Sec & was obliterated, it was my own fault, it was my own stupid error.
But it cost me most of my money to replace the implants that I had originally got from mission drops!

So will I be back, well need to get a jump clone and lot more money, before I try again!

As for 0.0 well based solely of the Forums!

I will never set foot in it as it stands at the moment!

Why!

As I said above based solely on the Forums. It would seem to me that 0.0 is held by 2 alliances!

1) The 'Goons' who if those who post in this Forum are a guide. I think that the inhabitants of Ghettos & High Security Prisons would make more trustworthy and likeable friends and I would need to learn how to 'Bot'!

2) The 'DRF' who it would seem I would need to speak Russian to join and learn how to 'Bot'!

In either case, based on the Forums you are a mindless cog in the machine, Just like work!

While your own efforts are dwarfed by the 'Bot' operation they both run 24/7, so why bother!

If there is anyone or any other groups out in 0.0 I really don't know!

And given the chances I might run into either of the above I am not interested in even trying!

The problem is that EVE, like real life, it encourages groups to grow & merge so they can protect themselves from another larger group.
Until you get 2 or 3 huge groups staring at each other over their fences!

So it seems to me you need to make those groups unstable, to create a turnover, this would allow smaller groups, individuals and newer players to make a difference and feel as if they are making a difference!

The easiest way I know is to make all resources 'Finite'

Ores, 'Tech Moons' & 'Moon Goo Moons' run out and get exhausted. When they do run out another Ore belt or 'Tech Moon' & 'Moon Goo Moon' randomly comes into existence somewhere in another system of the same security level of the system that just ran dry.

So to find the 'New' resources players would need to probe and prospect to find them!

The hoped for result is no guaranteed 24/7 Mining Bots as they would need to move around to find new belts, hopefully this would make it more difficult to automate (I am not a programmer!) and lower their income

Alliances would find that a neighbour suddenly have the ability to make money and grow or the new moon is in a long abandoned area jumps away from their current hub or the new Moon is at a choke point for 3 or 4 groups who need to travel through that system.

Hopefully it would add doubt and uncertainty and hopefully stop stagnation!

Anyway that is my tuppence worth this this thread!

As I play more and hopefully learn more, I hope that I am totally wrong what 0.0 consists of but at the moment I am not confident!

Malcanis

Vanishing Point.

The Initiative.

Likes received: 18,382

#267 - 2011-10-20 21:50:42 UTC

Emiko P'eng wrote:

Adelphie wrote:

So my question to non-null sec players - What keeps you out of null, and what features would you like to see which might entice you to venture out here?

Don't listen only to the forums. Make a jump clone with no/very cheap implants, fit out a fast frigate and go and look for yourself.

Sadly, a lot of people justify their own failure of nerve, imagination or skill by blaming the game.

Use something like this:

[Vigil, supertaxi]
Warp Core Stabilizer I
Warp Core Stabilizer I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Heat Dissipation Amplifier II

Improved Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

Once you learn to fly it, a ship like this is extremely difficult to kill, even in 0.0 And even if you don't lose it, it's still pretty cheap

PS you can fit salvagers in the empty high slots. Salvage from T2 ships is worth a lot.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lake

The Praxis Initiative

Gentlemen's Agreement

Likes received: 86

#268 - 2011-10-20 22:10:16 UTC

CCP Soundwave wrote:

This thread is pretty awesome. You guys will get a few 0.0 changes this winter, smaller ones that should improve quality of life.

One thing I'm thinking about, but not entirely sure about is this: Putting bounties on drones instead of minerals. Mining used to be a viable way of making money in nullsec, but the increase in available minerals has driven the price down. I'm wondering if putting bounties on drones won't give mining a bit of a revival and put some life back in 0.0.

Moving away from NPC-Faucet bounties was a good step.

If there's a glut of a resource (minerals from alloy refines) I believe the solution lies in A) generating more demand for that resource or B) providing a different resource as a reward C) giving players a choice to make a tradeoff to decide which specific resource they want (like mining different ores for minerals, unlike random drops/salvage/etc).

Or a combination of all three in small measure.

I think (C) is more important than it's given credit for. Players will 'fix gluts' / balance the market whenever given the chance (invisible hand), but random drops take that away within a given 'industry' (players can still switch from ratting to mining or missioning or trading, but can't change the ratio of zydrine coming out of drone lands).

Lharanai

Fools of the Blue Oyster

Likes received: 216

#269 - 2011-10-20 22:15:45 UTC

I have to admit, people seems to misunderstand me, at least english is not my native language so mea culpa.

I don't need null sec but more important in regard of the OP I don't WANT null sec.

People seems to think that everybody wants to go to null and is complaining how hard and unfair it is, that it is dominated by 2 alliances BUT thats all fine with me, thats the sandbox.

"How to repopulate nullsec - a question for highsec/WH players", that is the original titel of this thread and I will answer it only for myself, a casual highsec dweller with something like 15 mil SP.

There are two things mentioned in this and similar threads which could make me go null.

1. K-space via W-space, give me a place where I have at least a chance to defend it or stay undetected (this is more for the industrialist/miner)

2. Increase the amount of ISK I could make or reduce the risk so that it would make sense to try it.

At the moment whenever I go low or null I already consider my ship and in worst case my implants as lost, and why is that so? Because I am a casual player, I don't spent hours of organizing roams, I don't have alts to scout.

EVE is a game I play for fun and not as a second job, to make it clear again, some people here have to recognize that some players in EVE don't share their dedication. This is not good or bad, this is just how it is, I am not complaining about null, that was for my understanding not the intend of this thread, the OP wanted to know what it would need to go to null, and as I felt addressed I answered, point and thats all.

But as this is one of the more productive threads in the forums I hope you keep it alive

Seriously, don't take me serious, I MEAN IT...seriously

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai

Likes received: 4,252

#270 - 2011-10-20 22:20:41 UTC

Lharanai wrote:

Keep hammering the point until it hits home. EVE is a game, nullsec is a chore. That's 50% of what is wrong with nullsec.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Feyona

Doomheim

Likes received: 10

#271 - 2011-10-20 22:37:39 UTC | Edited by: Feyona

Null's just sorta boring. There's not that much PVP there; it seems like most people there are more interested in making isk than PVP, and it's quite easy to avoid combat if you don't want it. Intel channels, bubble camps at the entrance to your space, anoms that have to be scanned out combined with local that gives inhabitants at least a minute or two of warning that someone is coming their way. Add to that the usually corrupt alliance leaders who're just there to profit from their membership and don't actually care about them at all, and why should anybody other than newbies who're suckered into it bother? Etc.

A large part of what keeps it going is the propaganda that it's Eve's 'endgame...' Which is a bunch of bull. Yes, there are certain shiptypes that can't really be used outside null, but there are players of every level of experience in every area of the game.

I've lived in Null off and on for about 2 years of my 4 year career in this game and it's never really been anything but tedious. CTAs, blobs, 40 jump roams to gank a single ratter, blah blah blah. It's been gone over in this thread. Changing it to be how I like it would make it not 0.0 anymore. (Well, not nullsec sov space, which is what I assume we are talking about here. NPC space is a different beast entirely.) Let those who're happy with it have it how it is, and for those who don't wanna go there CCP can develop other content. That way we can all be happy.

I'll stick with low/wh/0.0 roaming rather than becoming a resident there and being beholden to anybody's wishes other than my own. Sure, I understand teamwork. If I feel like it. Mandatory op? Cram it up your arse. I'm immediately GONE from any organization that tries to tell me what I can do with my playtime, especially 'cause most losses are still paid for by the player. You pay my sub, buy my ships, THEN you can tell me where to go and who to shoot.

Doomheim 458
Kengutsi Akira Doomheim Likes received: 458	#272 - 2011-10-20 22:53:42 UTC Lharanai wrote: 2. Increase the amount of ISK I could make or reduce the risk so that it would make sense to try it. in before the risk/reward screams "Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box :: Yes

Doomheim 2,092
Tanya Powers Doomheim Likes received: 2,092	#273 - 2011-10-20 23:04:39 UTC caladoor wrote: QFT I do not and never will again pay to play a game where someone else gets to tell me how to spend my time playing. +1 Or just play BF instead just like many null sec players do right now, log once a week just to do boring stuff and log off for funniest stuff.

Kengutsi Akira

Doomheim

Likes received: 458

#274 - 2011-10-20 23:12:16 UTC

Tanya Powers wrote:

caladoor wrote:

QFT I do not and never will again pay to play a game where someone else gets to tell me how to spend my time playing.

+1

Or just play BF instead Lol

just like many null sec players do right now, log once a week just to do boring stuff and log off for funniest stuff.

or world of tanks as I understand

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes


Tanya Powers Doomheim Likes received: 2,092	#275 - 2011-10-20 23:13:57 UTC Skunk Gracklaw wrote: Lharanai wrote: maybe I have not tried enough Considering you can make more isk shooting gate rats in nullsec than you can running a level 4 mission I'm going to agree. Lies I'm not seeing that much nerds shooting rats at your gates, but a lot hugging POS, yes.

Shedload of Zeds 4
Anikan Fernardo Shedload of Zeds Likes received: 4	#276 - 2011-10-21 00:07:36 UTC 2 Capitals. Bubbles. Blobs. As a PvP only pilot, these things make nullsec both unprofitable and anti-fun..

108
Reislier Likes received: 108	#277 - 2011-10-21 00:20:38 UTC well.. could try.. rm -f /nullsec md /nullsec /reboot Be nice. If nice not work, be civil. If civil not work, beat with iron pipe till bloody and still.

Jenshae Chiroptera

Likes received: 2,645

#278 - 2011-10-21 01:01:53 UTC

Signature updated for this thread.

I agree. Too much work to be in null sec corps. Too much fussing with forums, voice programs and stuff. When I close EVE that should be the end.
Heck, I know Titan pilots that changed their home number just to get away from those people.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Guiding Hand Social Club 4
Kurj Valdoria Guiding Hand Social Club Likes received: 4	#279 - 2011-10-21 01:11:51 UTC You can't make a cat bark. Some people just don't want to goto nullsec. You can try to tweak risk/reward all you want but it won't work.

H A V O C Fraternity. 1,260
Manfred Sideous H A V O C Fraternity. Likes received: 1,260	#280 - 2011-10-21 02:56:07 UTC bump @EveManny https://twitter.com/EveManny