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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#561 - 2012-11-22 21:55:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous.


The fact that someone can always enter a FW plex as long as they do not hang around outside for any length of time is intended design.

why?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#562 - 2012-11-22 21:57:32 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Posting here because it's FW-related. Are acceleration gates going to continue to make people invulnerable? **** is ridiculous.


The fact that someone can always enter a FW plex as long as they do not hang around outside for any length of time is intended design.

why?


Because the ship restrictions are rendered moot if instalocking camps can prevent entry. There are opportunities to catch targets either at the place they warp to the plex from (often a gate) or inside the plex, and fighting can occur outside as long as the interested parties do not immediately activate the gate upon landing.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#563 - 2012-11-22 22:06:30 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I don't see why it's important that people have the ability to not get caught on acceleration gates when pretty much every day I run into gangs of instalocking destroyers on stargates (I hate them so much).


So in other words, "If I have to suffer this instalocking crap, they should too!" as supposed to "This instalocking crap isn't very fun, wouldn't it be cool if there was a place we could play in the game where this wasn't an issue" Twisted

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#564 - 2012-11-22 22:28:34 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I don't see why it's important that people have the ability to not get caught on acceleration gates when pretty much every day I run into gangs of instalocking destroyers on stargates (I hate them so much).


So in other words, "If I have to suffer this instalocking crap, they should too!" as supposed to "This instalocking crap isn't very fun, wouldn't it be cool if there was a place we could play in the game where this wasn't an issue" Twisted



If I were trying to FW plex and hostiles were trying to prevent me from doing so, surely they'd be better off covering the stargates anyway? Unavoidable death for people who don't have scout alts or elite pvp 6th sense, whereas camping the acceleration gate doesn't actually catch anyone who isn't stupid, even if the acceleration gate didn't make the target invulnerable.

How about getting rid of the instalocking entirely, by gutting the effectiveness on all +scan res mods and fixing the stacking on rigs? I think everyone would be down for that, except the awful camper pirates and russians that we all hate.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2012-11-22 22:40:39 UTC
So I went and got a Velator, the frigate in the rookie plex was able to kill me with no extra mods fitted, this may be due as much to my range and speed if the other rookie frigates have better range they may be able to run a rookie plex right out of the box.

Went back in another Velator with a few extra mods and drones, another NPC frigate apeared, first time I have seen a second NPC what causes them to spawn? Killed both NPC frigates though they did get me into armour.

Timer now stuck on contested, not sure why, could not see any more NPC’s and warped in and out but nothing happening. Must be stuck somehow, it’s in Fliet.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#566 - 2012-11-23 13:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Alticus C Bear wrote:
So I went and got a Velator, the frigate in the rookie plex was able to kill me with no extra mods fitted, this may be due as much to my range and speed if the other rookie frigates have better range they may be able to run a rookie plex right out of the box.

Went back in another Velator with a few extra mods and drones, another NPC frigate apeared, first time I have seen a second NPC what causes them to spawn? Killed both NPC frigates though they did get me into armour.

Timer now stuck on contested, not sure why, could not see any more NPC’s and warped in and out but nothing happening. Must be stuck somehow, it’s in Fliet.


We're actually going to be removing Rookie Ships from plex access and renaming the Rookie plexes into something less confusing, due to concerns about the ease of defensive plexing with noobships. That hasn't made it into the current public build but should be represented on Bucky soon.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Lili Lu
#567 - 2012-11-23 18:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
So I went and got a Velator, the frigate in the rookie plex was able to kill me with no extra mods fitted, this may be due as much to my range and speed if the other rookie frigates have better range they may be able to run a rookie plex right out of the box.

Went back in another Velator with a few extra mods and drones, another NPC frigate apeared, first time I have seen a second NPC what causes them to spawn? Killed both NPC frigates though they did get me into armour.

Timer now stuck on contested, not sure why, could not see any more NPC’s and warped in and out but nothing happening. Must be stuck somehow, it’s in Fliet.


We're actually going to be removing Rookie Ships from plex access and renaming the Rookie plexes into something less confusing, due to concerns about the ease of defensive plexing with noobships. That hasn't made it into the current public build but should be represented on Bucky soon.


Well, since you are renaming them, and presumably the minor, medium and major paradigm is out, how about adding another level for cruisers?

This would result in the "no longer rookie but no destroyers or tech II frigs", "all small ships", "something that is equivalent to present medium", "something that allows tech II cruisers and BCs", "something that has no subcap ship restrictions and thus BSs". So instead of 4 sizes we would have 5. This would preserve a place for tech I cruisers and tech I cruiser gang roaming in FW.

Otherwise, I will be like everyone else, flying as a scannable tech I or II plexer plus a cloaked dishonor Falcon alt in the "cruiser" size plexes.Sad
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#568 - 2012-11-25 07:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
I will join in the chorus of "please no t2 cruisers in mediums". Being able to avoid the falcon/rapier/curse/guardian crap (ships that fight bs's out in the open) is one of the best things about fw.

But I will try and state my case in relation to the other plexes:

Destroyers enter the plexes with t2 frigates. It follows that battlecruisers are the tier to fight t2 cruisers.

Concretely, I am suggestig:

Rookie (t1 frigs)
Minor (t1 frigs and destroyers and t2 frigs and below)
Medium (t1 cruisers and below)
Major (t2 cruisers and battlecruisers and below)
Unrestricted (everything, no gate as now)

Not only does it keep the fun factor of being able to hide from the null sec style gangs in t1 cruisers, it matches the logic splitting off the rookie plex from the minor plexes.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#569 - 2012-11-25 09:11:44 UTC
Really hope there are more changes planned.

One NPC spawn for whole duration of plex.

Well fit frigate can kill the NPC in a large plex. The battlecruiser NPC should probably have a 300 dps tank at least.

Still not sure why I see a second NPC sometimes, it may be that another spawns if you cannot kill the first but this would not make sense as you would not be able to run the timer anyway.

Are other changes planned? As is I expect it to be far too easy to manipulate/exploit in a number of ways: -

DPS ship could be used to clear NPC then any stabbed frigate could run the timer.

I expect the venture to be great plex farmer. Can it enter plexes? I have not found one to test.

Low TAG drops how is this being handled?

Suggestions.

NPC’s should keep spawning through the timer; a ship of the correct size for the plex has no issue dealing with them so it should not be a problem. At least have a spawn a minute from the end of the timer.

Increase number of tags per ship.

I will again state I am not a fan of the T2 cruiser intermixed with the T1 cruisers.

Nor do I like the beacon location change it seems to remove a tactical element from the gameplay.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#570 - 2012-11-26 15:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
During the most recent Buckingham reboot we deployed an updated version of the NPCs, the larger versions especially should tank harder now.

The current mechanics are that one NPC spawns at the start, and the second only appears if you fail to kill the first quickly. If we find that gunless farming begins to return we can put more NPC spawns in at a later point, but in general we want as much of the danger and difficulty of these plexes as possible to be provided by pvp rather than pve.

Let us know what you think of the specs on these latest versions of the rats.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#571 - 2012-11-26 16:49:58 UTC
Quote:
During the most recent Buckingham reboot we deployed an updated version of the NPCs, the larger versions especially should tank harder now.

The current mechanics are that one NPC spawns at the start, and the second only appears if you fail to kill the first quickly. If we find that gunless farming begins to return we can put more NPC spawns in at a later point, but in general we want as much of the danger and difficulty of these plexes as possible to be provided by pvp rather than pve.

Let us know what you think of the specs on these latest versions of the rats.


No. No. No.
Following will happen: One guys in ship with guns will kill the first wave and place an alt in the plex while doing the next wave in another plex and placing another alt on plex and so on.
Or fleets of 5 pvp guys who run all plex guards in one system after the other while gunless frig armada follows.
NO!
Not again.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#572 - 2012-11-26 17:11:21 UTC
Been on for a few minutes the battlecruiser tanked my incurses easily, my myrms drones also had a problem and they are supposed to put out somewhere like 380dps and had to use the guns to finish the NPC’s off so that is a lot better.

Going to say I don’t’ really get the logic behind the spawn mechanic.

If the plexer cannot kill the NPC then the timer does not run and no farming takes place, the player is then just circling an NPC wasting ammo, I guess there is a scenario where a ship with borderline DPS gets chased away by the second NPC but I would suggest that players will either break the NPC quickly or will just not be able to in which case further spawns are unnecessary and only open to exploitation (players may deliberately spawn it with an alt to gain a small advantage, many plexes come pre spawned in certain locations already)

I would much rather that second spawn always spawn at the back end of the timer to ensure the ship finishing the timer is still appropriate.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#573 - 2012-11-26 17:22:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The current mechanics are that one NPC spawns at the start, and the second only appears if you fail to kill the first quickly.


This will immediately cause a single rat pop at the start with gunless frigs (probably trial accounts) following to complete. Gunless chain plexing will result almost immediately after this patch is released, please don't bring that back!

Just one rat at the beginning and one rat at the end is still not sufficient (though better).

IMO, the optimal setup is:

4-5 rats spawn.
The timer only stops counting if a rat is not killed by the time another rat is ready to spawn. Then the next spawn is paused until the previous rat is killed. Once it is, the queued rat spawns and the timer resumes again.
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#574 - 2012-11-26 17:30:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment.


I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens.


You are missing the point.
Ok, yes you could start with a t1 cruiser in a plex.
However, why would you not start by defending with a t2 cruiser? In which case, you'd attack using t2 as well.

It works reasonably well now because in minor plexes, t2 frigates aren't allowed. Faction frigs are debatable, but in most cases, there are practical uses for t1 frigs.
Same for mediums. t1 cruisers are used because that's the best available. (plus of course faction).
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#575 - 2012-11-26 17:51:34 UTC
Axl Borlara wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment.


I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens.


You are missing the point.
Ok, yes you could start with a t1 cruiser in a plex.
However, why would you not start by defending with a t2 cruiser? In which case, you'd attack using t2 as well.

It works reasonably well now because in minor plexes, t2 frigates aren't allowed. Faction frigs are debatable, but in most cases, there are practical uses for t1 frigs.
Same for mediums. t1 cruisers are used because that's the best available. (plus of course faction).


We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers. Twisted

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Anna Shoul
#576 - 2012-11-26 18:00:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
During the most recent Buckingham reboot we deployed an updated version of the NPCs, the larger versions especially should tank harder now.


Just went into a Caldari Medium Facility with an Atron. My favourite under-3-mil throwaway fit too. Now there's a State Cruiser Wreck and I'm waiting for the button to spin out in solitude. :) Not sure if that was what was intended.

As a side note, the system capture status vanished from the screen after I completed the first plex and never came back.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#577 - 2012-11-26 18:05:09 UTC
Anna Shoul wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
During the most recent Buckingham reboot we deployed an updated version of the NPCs, the larger versions especially should tank harder now.


Just went into a Caldari Medium Facility with an Atron. My favourite under-3-mil throwaway fit too. Now there's a State Cruiser Wreck and I'm waiting for the button to spin out in solitude. :) Not sure if that was what was intended.

As a side note, the system capture status vanished from the screen after I completed the first plex and never came back.

Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes?
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#578 - 2012-11-26 18:13:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Axl Borlara wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
It will still result in HAC, Recon, and tech II logi gangs stomping on any tech I ships that might want to enter. This is fine out in the open. But that has been one of the great things about FW plexe restrictions is the fielding of tech I frigates and cruisers by everyone, new and old players. Changing the restrictions will render tech I cruisers not worth taking into that environment.


I disagree. Bring a recon in against a vexor sitting at 0 on the warpin and see what happens.


You are missing the point.
Ok, yes you could start with a t1 cruiser in a plex.
However, why would you not start by defending with a t2 cruiser? In which case, you'd attack using t2 as well.

It works reasonably well now because in minor plexes, t2 frigates aren't allowed. Faction frigs are debatable, but in most cases, there are practical uses for t1 frigs.
Same for mediums. t1 cruisers are used because that's the best available. (plus of course faction).


We'll keep an eye on it and can change as needed if the results aren't good. However I plan on using medium plexes to farm HAC kills using my T1 cruisers. Twisted



Eh, sorry.

It's really nice that the FLIPPING designer and known "pro" is thinking about farming T2 HACs. THat's really cute and special and stuff, but thanks for thinking about all the people that are learning to PVP and will never ever ever stand a chance.

Good thinkin.

Roll



Where I am.
Anna Shoul
#579 - 2012-11-26 18:14:58 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes?


Me, I'm not sure that there's a point to have NPCs in plexes at all.

Granted, it took me quite a while to kill that cruiser as my DPS isn't that high in that fit, but it certainly couldn't touch me. Maybe solo NPCs aren't really the way to go - a couple frigs to back it up could cause me problems.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#580 - 2012-11-26 18:20:11 UTC
Anna Shoul wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Sounds like high-dps short range hulls are a "challenge" for this implementation of FW plexes?


Me, I'm not sure that there's a point to have NPCs in plexes at all.

Granted, it took me quite a while to kill that cruiser as my DPS isn't that high in that fit, but it certainly couldn't touch me. Maybe solo NPCs aren't really the way to go - a couple frigs to back it up could cause me problems.


The NPCs not applying much damage is intentional so that they don't discourage pvp as much as the current system. They exist as speedbumps, and other players are the main event.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie