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Concern about Serpentis post-patch

Author
Zalinee
Rancho Buena Vista
#21 - 2012-11-20 17:27:09 UTC
Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-11-20 22:10:25 UTC
It kinda sucks to be told as a BS spec'd pilot that your best option against the pirate faction you encounter the most is to train a T3 cruiser.

Can that proteus fit take the damage from the first room of the assault while getting close enough to deal with those cruisers? When I ran it on the test server the whole room auto agressed. Not sure if that was intended or just a bug but if it goes live like that I'll need a good tank.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#23 - 2012-11-20 22:54:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It kinda sucks to be told as a BS spec'd pilot that your best option against the pirate faction you encounter the most is to train a T3 cruiser.

Can that proteus fit take the damage from the first room of the assault while getting close enough to deal with those cruisers? When I ran it on the test server the whole room auto agressed. Not sure if that was intended or just a bug but if it goes live like that I'll need a good tank.

Proteus easily permatanks every L4 mission. And The Assault is not a problem too, like most other missions where there are about 4 damps at most.

The Blockade is pathological case.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-11-20 23:02:08 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
It kinda sucks to be told as a BS spec'd pilot that your best option against the pirate faction you encounter the most is to train a T3 cruiser.

Can that proteus fit take the damage from the first room of the assault while getting close enough to deal with those cruisers? When I ran it on the test server the whole room auto agressed. Not sure if that was intended or just a bug but if it goes live like that I'll need a good tank.

Proteus easily permatanks every L4 mission. And The Assault is not a problem too, like most other missions where there are about 4 damps at most.

The Blockade is pathological case.

Is that statement based on whole room aggro or just individual groups?

Only issue I had in the Assault was the first room. Melted a mach I was testing rather quickly trying to get into lock range of the damp cruisers. The issue was the DPS incoming more than the damps themselves due to having to be in range of it all and not being able to aggro spawns selectively.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#25 - 2012-11-20 23:25:25 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Is that statement based on whole room aggro or just individual groups?

Only issue I had in the Assault was the first room. Melted a mach I was testing rather quickly trying to get into lock range of the damp cruisers. The issue was the DPS incoming more than the damps themselves due to having to be in range of it all and not being able to aggro spawns selectively.

Which one? :)

The tanking statement is based on more than half a year flying Proteus and grinding missions. Though it was some time ago, long before EWAR fix.

The one about The Assault is based on doing this mission in recent weeks. In Assault damps are annoying but manageable, that's my experience. If you have enough range, start by killing those cruisers. If you get aggro, tough luck, you have to charge or wait until they come to you.
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-11-21 00:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Flurk Hellbron
Zalinee wrote:
Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.

This or....

What I do:
1st alt (player) get's aggro and fly's away from NPC's, frig's follow.
2th alt (player 2) comes in and blows up frig's first, then with the two for the other ships.
Works great with 2 Tengu's, but I'm sure other combinations can be found easily.

Imho, the higher mission levels should be made to oblige players to work together.

Flurk
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#27 - 2012-11-21 00:27:41 UTC
Before I could afford a fancy ship I used a pair of 1400 Maelstroms to do blockade. Mission specific hardeners and large shield booster, Didn’t matter witch one got agro the other one would relatively easily POP the dampening cruisers, once they were dead the combined volleys made short work of the rest of the room. Next wave same thing, whichever toon got agro tanked for a few minutes and the other cleared the cruisers.

I imagine the new aggression AI will make it a little more entertaining but I can’t imagine it will be too much to deal with.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Oblivion Maximus
War 247
#28 - 2012-11-21 02:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Oblivion Maximus
they are setting up for Raven to come back as Kind of the Hill.. Do some research... Its gonna be the next big thing in missioning.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-11-21 02:15:05 UTC
Zalinee wrote:
Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.

the problem is that you think these numbers are impressive.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-11-21 02:17:52 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Zalinee wrote:
Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.

the problem is that you think these numbers are impressive.


Impressive enough to run those mission sites............Smile
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#31 - 2012-11-21 07:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Daniel Plain wrote:
Zalinee wrote:
Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.

the problem is that you think these numbers are impressive.

I have to agree with Daniel Plain, I have been running missions at 1400 dps,1600m/s bursts of speed, and tank over 1000 for quite awhile now. Not sure if I would have the patience to run missions with a T3 anymore.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

stoicfaux
#32 - 2012-11-22 05:23:16 UTC
Flurk Hellbron wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Zalinee wrote:
Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.

the problem is that you think these numbers are impressive.


Impressive enough to run those mission sites............Smile

The HAM's problem isn't DPS, the problem is a lack of DPS at 31+km.

Currently, if it takes ten seconds for the HAM Tengu to get into range, then you need ~60 seconds of HAM shooting to catch up to the HML Tengu. The 110+km range of the HML really puts a dent into the HAM's effective DPS.

If we adjust for the 10% HML nerf and the 5% HAM buff in Retribution, that drops to ~27 seconds of shooting to catch up. As for ranges, the HML Tengu is getting knocked down to 68km, whereas HAMs suffer a 7% range hit, or 27km in this example.

At 580m/s it takes 17 seconds to travel 10km. =/

Come Retribution, I doubt that the HAM Tengu will be more efficient than the HML Tengu at level 4s.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-11-22 14:01:41 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

The HAM's problem isn't DPS, the problem is a lack of DPS at 31+km.

Currently, if it takes ten seconds for the HAM Tengu to get into range, then you need ~60 seconds of HAM shooting to catch up to the HML Tengu. The 110+km range of the HML really puts a dent into the HAM's effective DPS.

If we adjust for the 10% HML nerf and the 5% HAM buff in Retribution, that drops to ~27 seconds of shooting to catch up. As for ranges, the HML Tengu is getting knocked down to 68km, whereas HAMs suffer a 7% range hit, or 27km in this example.

At 580m/s it takes 17 seconds to travel 10km. =/

Come Retribution, I doubt that the HAM Tengu will be more efficient than the HML Tengu at level 4s.


So what you are saying is that as per the OP's comment regarding being heavily sensor damped by serpentis is that a HAM tengu would be better as you would be limited to firing at relatively close range and it's DPS is better in that range.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-11-22 14:31:20 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Flurk Hellbron wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Zalinee wrote:
Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.

the problem is that you think these numbers are impressive.


Impressive enough to run those mission sites............Smile

The HAM's problem isn't DPS, the problem is a lack of DPS at 31+km.

Currently, if it takes ten seconds for the HAM Tengu to get into range, then you need ~60 seconds of HAM shooting to catch up to the HML Tengu. The 110+km range of the HML really puts a dent into the HAM's effective DPS.

If we adjust for the 10% HML nerf and the 5% HAM buff in Retribution, that drops to ~27 seconds of shooting to catch up. As for ranges, the HML Tengu is getting knocked down to 68km, whereas HAMs suffer a 7% range hit, or 27km in this example.

At 580m/s it takes 17 seconds to travel 10km. =/

Come Retribution, I doubt that the HAM Tengu will be more efficient than the HML Tengu at level 4s.


not only that; the HAMgu also relies on range rigs to project damage which gimps its damage against frigate targets. retribution HAMs will have roughly the same explosion stats as HMs have now, except you will not be able to afford a rigor/rigor/flare setup. instead you will have to run with at least one range rig, which will basically cut your damage application to 40m sigs in half.
being able to deal with frigates is an essential pillar of a good mission ship. the HAMgu will fail in this regard, as well as in damage projection.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Doddy
Excidium.
#35 - 2012-11-22 15:03:01 UTC
shouldn't really need to explain this but the counter to range damps is approaching the enemy, and if you are in a ship too slow to do this that is your fault, l2p
Zalinee
Rancho Buena Vista
#36 - 2012-11-22 17:58:12 UTC
goldiiee wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Zalinee wrote:
Come on guys, the Tengu us still going to be a great ship and can handle this damping issue with no problem. My HAM Tengu does 900 Kin dps up to 30km and burns at targets at 580ms. Just burn toward them and orbit at 2000 meters and waste them. I use hams, missle range rigs, target painter, 3 navy ballistics, one T2 ballistic, 5% ham damage implant, and 5% missle reload implant....900 deeps. No nerf on hams after patch.

the problem is that you think these numbers are impressive.

I have to agree with Daniel Plain, I have been running missions at 1400 dps,1600m/s bursts of speed, and tank over 1000 for quite awhile now. Not sure if I would have the patience to run missions with a T3 anymore.



Would you care to give me some details of ship type and fitting? If those numbers are true I would love to try it out. Yes I have used a Mach that pumps out about 1000 dps with my skills, but with Tengu I have better tank and no issues with tracking. But 1400 dps (un-heated) I have never seen. Thanks sir.
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#37 - 2012-11-22 19:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Cut the quote to make the post cleaner
Zalinee wrote:

Would you care to give me some details of ship type and fitting? If those numbers are true I would love to try it out. Yes I have used a Mach that pumps out about 1000 dps with my skills, but with Tengu I have better tank and no issues with tracking. But 1400 dps (un-heated) I have never seen. Thanks sir.


Sorry in advance for the long stats thread.

Machariel Shield tank mission boat
7x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Hail L) 3.899 km optimal 44.251km Falloff
Auto Targeting System II

Pithum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster (961 without crystals/1477 with crystals)
Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster

Damage Control II
4x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
2x Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
5x Warrior II

With a clone with damage implants and a PG modifier implant.
Effective HP: 88,670 (Eve: 77,012)
Tank Ability: 936.34 DPS
Damage Profile - OMNI Damage (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%)
Shield Resists - EM: 67.66%, Ex: 76.76%, Ki: 72.11%, Th: 74.12%
Armor Resists - EM: 66.00%, Ex: 23.50%, Ki: 36.25%, Th: 44.75%
Capacitor (Lasts 1m 24s) '20 boost cycles' everything on (Lasts 4m 02s) '60 boost cycles' With MWD off
Volley Damage: 4,284.50
DPS: 1,357.21 with drones 1,473

With my clone (set of crystals)
Effective HP: 88,670 (Eve: 77,012)
Tank Ability: 1,408.07 DPS
Damage Profile - OMNI Damage (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%)
Shield Resists - EM: 67.66%, Ex: 76.76%, Ki: 72.11%, Th: 74.12%
Armor Resists - EM: 66.00%, Ex: 23.50%, Ki: 36.25%, Th: 44.75%
Capacitor (Lasts 1m 30s) ‘22 boosts cycles’ everything on (Lasts 3m 40s) ‘55 boost cycles’ MWD off
Volley Damage: 4,284.50
DPS: 1,357.21 with drones 1,437

Dropping the Omega still tanks 1200 and you can drop the epsilon and be right at 1000.

I know it’s expensive, it took me quite a while to get it all in one ship but I could never imagine running missions any other way again. It should be noted with this much DPS at your disposal the need to pulse the Shield booster is considerably less than you would think; Most missions I don’t boost shield at all.
Infested drone outpost: 6 to 7 minutes and no boosts required.
Angel Extravaganza: only needed boosts in the bonus room.
Worlds collide: a few pulses in the second and third room but never more than three.

It should also be noted this ship needs to be flown, Not an AFK and hit F1 machine, Keep range and melt everything starting with the friggs.

With this setup I managed 4 to 7 level 4 missions an hour (no-salvage just bounties and LP) would usually give a noob/corpmate a Noctis to follow me around to collect tags and make ISK for his own ships.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#38 - 2012-11-22 19:30:53 UTC
I forgot to add the the sebo gets targeting range scripts when dealing with damps. Blockade usually damps me down to 27 to 36km just pulse the mwd and two shot cruisers to release the damps and then burn away to the next target.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#39 - 2012-11-23 00:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
deleted double post. dont know how that happened.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

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