These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Jita Park Speakers Corner

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

Farms and Fields (0.0 Vision Discussion)

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#41 - 2012-11-19 17:25:34 UTC
Cearain wrote:
@Gizznitt

These are just some examples. Its not so much that each security area of space must only attract one type of pvp. But each mechanic in that space will need to work within those restictions. The mechanics as they further develop should try to promote a certain type of pvp instead of trying to confuse them all.



While I agree that each sec status is a unique environment, thereby altering the dynamics of PvP activities (like POS bashing), I don't understand your "confuse them all statement". All types of PvP should happen in all types of space!

Cearain wrote:

Lets just look at what ccp did with faction war and you will see why they are sort of all over the place.

Its low sec and good for people who aren't interested in politics. But then they decide to add station lockouts. They also took this idea of being able to "farm" your systems and added lp for defensive plexing. Why anyone would want a mechanic to have the vision of a farm and field is beyond me. But I see lots of people like it. So do it. But please don't make all of eve farms and fields.


I don't quite follow you here.....
1.) You can have a politics-devoid play style in any security zone... Granted, when fighting a politically organized (i.e. lots of blues) entity, it becomes much trickier, but I don't see how / why you think lowsec is special in terms of "little politics". If anything, I'd say Sov Nullsec is the only "special area" in that the current Sov Mechanics pretty much require you to play the politics game, but no other sec zone does.

2.) The FW plexes (farms) are a major source of FW's PvP environment. They create interesting ship class limited PvP, they provide LP income, and they eventually lock your enemies out of a system. Personally, I think station lockouts are far more good than bad, as they add a sense of loss when you lose a system, create a sense of anxiety when you have stuff in system and are about to lose access to it, and limit station games. I'll be honest, I wasn't around FW prior to this fall, but I find most of the current FW mechanics well-done (even it took a few iterations to get there).

Cearain wrote:

CCP doesn't seem to distinguish this hunter prey pvp from any other sort of pvp we would get in fw. Thats why they decided to make it so that people who enter a fw plex land closer to the occupant. This is to create gank opportunities. But plexing should not be a system where the person running the plex is like a mission runner/merchant and the person coming in is the pirate. It should be warfare where the sides either choose to fight for the objective or decide they need to withdraw. There are plenty of things ccp could do to create more pvp within that different way of thinking. The most obvious would be alerting the militia where complexes are being attacked. But instead they stick with this hunting and prey theme and force people to roam around hunting for a target.


1rst: Landing closer to the button isn't about creating "gank" opportunities... it's about balancing the PvP styles of combat between kiters and brawlers... Currently, if you are in a brawling ship running a plex, and a kiting ship comes in... you can't do anything from the button, and need to warp to safety.. With the upcoming changes, entering a plex is much more dangerous, because your enemy can be setup at the warp in while running the button.

2nd: Anyone in a FW plex should be a PvPer... and the upcoming changes pretty much eliminate the afk plex farming alt scenarios that have plagued FW for the last year.

3rd: While having some type of alert system would allow you to "cut out" the hunting, I find most of my FW experiences are just like you want them:
My gang and I enter system, where we can quickly determine if people are running plexes or not just by the overview + dscan. From there, either try to kick someone out of a plex, or run a plex ourselves. In either case, when we and the enemies are there to rumble, we inevitably end up with one party inside the plex, and the other party assembling on the plex entrance gate... Then, if we think it's a we can, we hold the plex and kill everyone that enters. And if we are overwhelmed, we withdraw leaving the plex to the enemy. The only hunter-prey aspect of this, is finding the initial group of enemies.. but that's why we have scouts....

Cearain wrote:

So now Faction war sov war is a bit hunter prey and a bit null sec farms and fields. But its not what faction war players want. A source of frequent quality pvp. Sure compared to other areas of eve it is. But it always was - ccp didn't do anything to improve on that. They are just sort of stumbling around.

Bottom line is ccp shouldn't attempt to have every mechanic sorat generate every different type of pvp and therefore all sort of fail. They should do a good job and get distinct types of pvp and add variety to the universe.


First of all, for farms and fields, while nullsec has belts, plexes, and anomalies style, these are NOTHING like FW plexes. In FW, most of the pilots running plexes are PvP fit and ready/willing to fight... In nullsec, most of the pilots ratting are PvE fit and hide from a noobship. In FW, the plex has a strategic value to the system owners, giving them a reason to defend it. In nullsec, there is no reason to defend a belt or anomaly... Hell, unless we're talking about large fleets, there is no strategic reason to fight off an intruder at all. In my opinion, there are no areas of EvE even remotely close to FW in terms of easy to find, solo-to-small gang PvP that often escalates. In truth, Agony hasn't found this much PvP since Provi Fight Club...

Finally, I have no idea how claim FW isn't a source of frequent quality solo-to-medium gang PvP. Sure, there are blobby groups, but that's the price you pay for abundant targets!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2012-11-19 17:54:06 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Cearain wrote:
@Gizznitt

These are just some examples. Its not so much that each security area of space must only attract one type of pvp. But each mechanic in that space will need to work within those restictions. The mechanics as they further develop should try to promote a certain type of pvp instead of trying to confuse them all.



While I agree that each sec status is a unique environment, thereby altering the dynamics of PvP activities (like POS bashing), I don't understand your "confuse them all statement". All types of PvP should happen in all types of space!


Yes we disagree. I think trying to do that just makes all of eve about the same instead of different parts of eve appealing to different play styles.

Cearain wrote:

Lets just look at what ccp did with faction war and you will see why they are sort of all over the place.

Its low sec and good for people who aren't interested in politics. But then they decide to add station lockouts. They also took this idea of being able to "farm" your systems and added lp for defensive plexing. Why anyone would want a mechanic to have the vision of a farm and field is beyond me. But I see lots of people like it. So do it. But please don't make all of eve farms and fields.


I don't quite follow you here.....
1.) You can have a politics-devoid play style in any security zone... Granted, when fighting a politically organized (i.e. lots of blues) entity, it becomes much trickier, but I don't see how / why you think lowsec is special in terms of "little politics". If anything, I'd say Sov Nullsec is the only "special area" in that the current Sov Mechanics pretty much require you to play the politics game, but no other sec zone does. [/quote]

Ok I really don't know because I have limitted experience in null sec. But lets say you are in npc null sec and there is a large fleet bubbling the undock of the station you base out of. What sort of options do you have that don't require getting a larger fleet to force them off? In low sec insta undocks make this no problem at all.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

2.) The FW plexes (farms) are a major source of FW's PvP environment. They create interesting ship class limited PvP, they provide LP income, and they eventually lock your enemies out of a system. Personally, I think station lockouts are far more good than bad, as they add a sense of loss when you lose a system, create a sense of anxiety when you have stuff in system and are about to lose access to it, and limit station games. I'll be honest, I wasn't around FW prior to this fall, but I find most of the current FW mechanics well-done (even it took a few iterations to get there).



I know you weren't in faction war before inferno. If you had been you would not refer to faction war plexes as farms. That is not what they were for the vast majority of faction war. They were places to find frequent quality small gang pvp.

Station games are always optional in low sec. People can choose to play them or not. To the extent instalocking ships make this no longer the case in low sec ccp should change this.

Plexing is not really a pvp mechanic. If I really wanted to get the most plexing done I would get in a pve ship and never fight.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

First of all, for farms and fields, while nullsec has belts, plexes, and anomalies style, these are NOTHING like FW plexes. In FW, most of the pilots running plexes are PvP fit and ready/willing to fight... In nullsec, most of the pilots ratting are PvE fit and hide from a noobship. In FW, the plex has a strategic value to the system owners, giving them a reason to defend it. In nullsec, there is no reason to defend a belt or anomaly... Hell, unless we're talking about large fleets, there is no strategic reason to fight off an intruder at all. In my opinion, there are no areas of EvE even remotely close to FW in terms of easy to find, solo-to-small gang PvP that often escalates. In truth, Agony hasn't found this much PvP since Provi Fight Club...

Finally, I have no idea how claim FW isn't a source of frequent quality solo-to-medium gang PvP. Sure, there are blobby groups, but that's the price you pay for abundant targets!


Comparing faction to null sec or other areas of eve as far as getting frequent quality pvp is where you are going wrong. The fact that fw is better than null sec is just as much an indicator that null sec is horrible for small gang pvp as it is something that says fw is great.

I think it should be reasonable to play eve for about 3 hours a week. In that 3 hours 1 hour would be logistics and the other 2 shoudl be for pvp. I think a person should be able to consistantly get 3-7 fights in that 2 hours. Instead even in faction war I will often spend 2 hours roaming without a single fight. That is why eve isn't getting a huge increase in subscriptions after their fw revamp. Its still sort like null sec and its still too much of a waste of time for limitted amount of quality pvp you get.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-11-20 04:15:31 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
Destructible Stations...





...Insert barren wastelands.



Fixed that for you...


I'm going to disagree with this. There are many regions that are so ate up with player dropped outposts that it's actually a problem. Now they shouldn't be EASY to destroy, and I'd even allow for the contents to be dumped into the nearest lowsec station (along with buy/sell orders).
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-11-22 13:31:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I'm going to disagree with this. There are many regions that are so ate up with player dropped outposts that it's actually a problem. Now they shouldn't be EASY to destroy, and I'd even allow for the contents to be dumped into the nearest lowsec station (along with buy/sell orders).


While that 'station destroyed = all my stuff is gone forever' concept is problematic, 'destroying' the station would be better if it left a wrecked shell which you could infiltrate through WiS to try and retrieve the contents of the hangar. Magic teleporters moving everyone's stuff to empire feels odd and out-of-sync with the rest of the setting.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#45 - 2012-11-22 14:09:59 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I'm going to disagree with this. There are many regions that are so ate up with player dropped outposts that it's actually a problem. Now they shouldn't be EASY to destroy, and I'd even allow for the contents to be dumped into the nearest lowsec station (along with buy/sell orders).


While that 'station destroyed = all my stuff is gone forever' concept is problematic, 'destroying' the station would be better if it left a wrecked shell which you could infiltrate through WiS to try and retrieve the contents of the hangar. Magic teleporters moving everyone's stuff to empire feels odd and out-of-sync with the rest of the setting.


My thoughts exactly. Why miss a huge opportunity to provide some great gameplay?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-11-22 14:17:04 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I'm going to disagree with this. There are many regions that are so ate up with player dropped outposts that it's actually a problem. Now they shouldn't be EASY to destroy, and I'd even allow for the contents to be dumped into the nearest lowsec station (along with buy/sell orders).


While that 'station destroyed = all my stuff is gone forever' concept is problematic, 'destroying' the station would be better if it left a wrecked shell which you could infiltrate through WiS to try and retrieve the contents of the hangar. Magic teleporters moving everyone's stuff to empire feels odd and out-of-sync with the rest of the setting.


My thoughts exactly. Why miss a huge opportunity to provide some great gameplay?

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to express horror at the very idea of WiS having meaningful gameplay amongst the monocle stores and social environments.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Previous page123