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Of High, Low and Null ... A noobs idea for encouraging movement from High Sec

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Torkya Titzoff
Titzoff Obsfucated Operations and Logistics
#1 - 2012-11-22 11:35:51 UTC
Of High, Low and Null and how to revive them.

As a new player of EvE playing catchup in, knowledge, ISK and understanding, I read a lot. One seems to ring through is a kind desperation at the decline of Low and Null Sec, and I think there are a few “simple” ways to fix it.

Now being a new player you will probably be thinking “wtf could you possibly know about how to to fix Low and Null Sec, NOOB!” Well perhaps nothing, perhaps everything, more likely somewhere in between.

I see a few common themes that spring up all over the place, regardless of who seems to be writing:

1. Abject fear that CCP will kill EvE by courting the casual ex-WoW player with a wholly safe theme park high sec. An area devoid of non-consentual PvP an area where carebears flourish never venturing beyond the cocooned realm of protected Empire space.

2. Cries of disdain that there is too little PvP to be had in low and null, outside of the sov wars. That CCP must make high sec riskier to enable PvPers to gank Carebears in high sec at will.

3. That Null Sec is industrially and economically, broken.

The base premise behind all of these and the core driving force behind EVERYTHING that happens in EvE is risk versus reward. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. This is the one driver that determines how cap pilots play in EvE. “Don't fly what you cant afford to lose” a simple statement that encompasses everything about EvE.

First things first though … what are High, Low and Null for ? Well in my view they (should) have very specific purposes.

High Sec is the financial core of EvE. It is where new players arrive, learn, get scammed, even blown up if they aren't careful. Its also where the majority of common industry occurs. Without high sec EvE eventually dies. If we make it too hard for new pilots to get a start, not just ships but to actually understand how the EvE universe works we lose them and we're stuck whining about how there isn't enough PvP. Suicide ganks in High Sec should be possible … but hard.

Low Sec is where pilots take a real risk, there are some safe way-stations and there is monitoring of actions that impact security rating, what you do here should impact what you can and can't do in High Sec. Low Sec is where pilots come to begin making a name for themselves where ambitious industrialists go to begin building their conglomerates.

Null Sec is where empires rise and fall where those with the will and courage to do so go to become legends, be they industrialists or warriors. Some will rise, many will fail.

The real question is “How do we achieve this?” Risk versus Reward.

The main problem with EvE now is there is no incentive to put your shiny (grubby) mining barge at risk in Low or Null simply because it is too easy to get ganked, the risk far outweighs the reward. Why go to Low Sec to mine where someone can just loop through the belts until they find me and blow my cardboard construction mining barge up, especially since I can make more money with far less risk?

Worse still they may not even get to the belt … jump through a gate into a gate camp and get popped before you can say “not the face!”

So how do we encourage pilots who are otherwise happy munching Veldspar all day while afk to move to Low or Null Sec ?

Jigger with the risk equation.

High Sec mining needs a nerf bat to the face. But not in the way you think.

Mining Veldspar and Scordite should be easy … that's how we train new miners ! But it shouldn't be an ISK fountain. Looking at blueprints as they are now, Tritanium and Pyerite are the single most needed metals there are. It takes huge amounts of either or both just to make the most basic items. As an example my 3 month old sort of manufacturing alt has the following requirements to make a simple T1 armor hardener.

Reactive Armor Hardener metal prices from Sinq Liaison

Nocxium 3 @ 659 each = 1977
Zydrine 2 @ 807 each = 1614
Pyerite 20378 @ 10.25 each = 208874.5
Tritanium 25392 @ 5.5 = 139656

Now if I was looking to make money from metals … I sure as hell know where Im going to make the most. Why would I take the risk of trying to mine ores for Noxcium and Zydrine when I can afk mine easy money from Veldspar and Scordite?

The easy way to fix this is not to nerf the miners or make them easier to kill, but to reduce the reliance on Tritanium and Pyerite and increase the need for those ores that can't be found in High Sec. Reduce the income stream. By the same token make the metals ores that are more risky to mine more valuable by making them more needed.

Additionally technetium needs a redistribution … not necessarily increasing supply but spreading the supply more throughout the universe..

The corollary to this is that even if you make the Low and Null Sec ores more valuable you have to make it worth while to go get them. No miner is going into Low or Null when all someone has to do to gank them is sit by the gate or fly around a bunch of way-points (belts).

Torkya Titzoff
Titzoff Obsfucated Operations and Logistics
#2 - 2012-11-22 11:36:18 UTC
PvPers should be hunters, so lets make them hunt.

Gate camps need to be far more risky. Gate guns need to be beefed up but in Null Sec they also need to be destructible. Something along the lines of …

1. At a jump gate between High and Low Sec the gate guns are seriously deadly … you need heavily tanked battleships and logistics to survive more than 30 seconds once the gate guns open up and they have a hair trigger on hostile acts and switch targets away from ships being repped. Best bet … don't make them mad!
2. Low Sec to Low Sec the gate guns are powerful but they are tankable, you need to quickly kill your target loot and get away. Or if you are game the gate guns can be engaged and temporarily incapacitated. Interdiction bubbles within 50km of the gate are a hostile act and will trigger the guns. Don't drop your load prematurely ! A well tanked battlecruiser should be able to, with some remote reps, tank the gate guns for 90 seconds easily, but they will switch targets.
3. Low Sec to Null Sec … the gate guns can be engaged and incapacitated, on the Low Sec side of the gate this will get you a minor security hit on the Null Sec side its free for all. The gate guns will deactivate and enter repair mode, at this point they are invulnerable but also will not engage should you commit a hostile act within their range. They will however repair and reactivate in a random time-frame between 30 and 45 minutes. They will have forgotten previous engagements.

Now to actually hunting, EvE already has the perfect inbuilt mini-game for this, scanning.

Asteroid belts need to be taken off the map in Low and Null Sec.

Role based mining ships (Exhumers, Mining Barges, the new mining frigate) gain a mid slot and a new item … a Belt Scanner.

Belt scanners can only be fitted to a mining ship and show where the belts are based on their Astrogeology (or some other) skill. The higher the skill the better ore they can find, belts in this are treated like cosmic signatures except you don't need probes and have to spend time refining placement.

Now the tricky part, if you don't have the module fitted to your ship you can't find or warp to the belt, the only exception to this is industrial command ships in fleet with the miners.

To have a chance to kill a miner in a belt, Hunters must scan the miner down. No you can't fleet with a mining barge have them warp to a field and warp to them in your Vargur, you have to scan them yourself.

Mining barges will not see combat probes, on d-scan, their scan gear is limited. An Orca or Rorqual will though.

So … we now have a game of cat and mouse … the mouse hiding in the 'belt eating the cheese, the cat using his scanning skills to track their quarry and close in for the kill.

The other thing this does is mean that there is the potential for more prey … and that should lure more hunters … which could mean that real PvP between active combatants becomes more possible.

Yep the aware, prepared, paranoid, miner will probably live most times, but the afkers will be easy pickings … and with there being a definite advantage to bringing an industrial command ship mining ops with teeth could be the new trend. But it may get hunters hunting rather than being scavengers.

Now … it's all well and good to make mining in Low and Null better and High Sec worse as far as the risk equation is concerned, but we need to keep pilot in Low and Null rather than shipping all that ore out.

Well that part becomes easier, refineries on NPC stations in Low and Null should be 15% more efficient than those in High Sec, POS refining should have the same efficiency as High Sec station refining. Similarly production in Low and Null Sec should be 10% faster and 5% more efficient than High Sec. Now I make no differentiation here between Low and Null industry they need to be equal. Those Corps just getting into low need to be able to take the risk and be rewarded for moving to Low Sec … not be crushed in the market by Null alliances that have the best ores AND the best production facilities. Yes, Capital Ships should only be able to be made at a POS in Null … but that's the only additional concession.

Now to make it worth while to build a POS they should be harder to destroy. That isn't to say however that they should be invulnerable.

A POS with production facilities should have self repair capabilities which would use Strontium Clathrates as fuel. The current seige, reinforce cycle makes POS warfare a boring grind.

What if instead of the reinforce cycle, stations repaired themselves as they were attacked. A POS that is unmanned and not resupplied will run out of fuel after repairing itself for 24 hours. That is of course unless it is destroyed first. Repair modules are like any other on a POS they require CPU and Power to online and you can only have as many as your station can support. Balancing guns, shield and repairs on a POS will be no different than doing it on a ship … its just a big not moving ship.

Getting your goods out of a POS will be risky too … you cant warp until you are 10km outside the force field. That means an enemy willing to brave the defensive guns has a chance to intercept your transport and destroy it.

Now you might ask why I would have a POS that can be destroyed if there are nice more efficient NPC stations that I can use to do my work.

Well NPC stations in Low or Null will only allow you to have 1 job in the queue at that station regardless of your Mass Production skill level and they cannot build anything bigger than a Battle Cruiser. You cannot queue again at that station until your job is complete, you can go and install a job at other stations up to the limit of you Mass Production skill.

This is all just my idea of what I would do to revive Low and Null Sec space and make it worthwhile for all those Empire bound pilots to spread out of High Sec space.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-11-22 11:40:41 UTC
TL;DR version of the actual idea? There must be one, since the first few lines were already made entirely of unnecessary rambling.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2012-11-22 11:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Most highsecers simply will never touch low/null. There really isnt anything you can do to convince them to try it. Alliances offer 100% free pvp ships and training and the best rats, roids, etc. You explain to them exactly how 0.0 sov is safer then highsec due to having 10 jumps of intel between you and any hostiles, yet they still refuse to try it. You explain that even a noob with half a brain will make more isk in 0.0, counting his losses, then he would highsec, but he still doesn't care.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Lance Rossiter
CHAINS Corp
#5 - 2012-11-22 12:12:33 UTC
As a newbie (I may have to stop saying that soon...but not today!) who moved to low sec early and enjoys living there, the point I agree on most strongly is the ratio of required ores for production. I find myself limited by my stocks of Tritanium and Pyerite more often than by anything else, and a result I spend a lot the time that I spend mining, mining Scordite.

That's fine, except that the risk to reward ratio for me when I'm doing this is utterly borked, because even if we discount the risks of low sec altogether I'm using the "safety" barge with a "safety"-focused fit: I'm pulling in significantly less ore per cycle than a person in high sec would be making with their high-yield or larger-ore-hold barge, and a mining upgrades fit.

Being able to mine for minerals like Jaspet and Hemorphite is good for my industrial aspirations and I appreciate that advantage, but I don't get a sense that it's that much of a rewards swing back in my favour, because the basic ores seem to sell so well and so consistently in high sec.

As much as I respect the amount of thought that went into your post (I do, by the way: very nicely put together topic), I also disagree on the solution. I find it valuable to be able to hit the belts in my non-mining vessels: I can clear rats for my barge, or salvage kills. I also think it brings a desirable element of player interaction - the chance a player will stumble on me with no warning is exciting, and I actually made a friend one time after I happened to jump in right next to him with my Caracal. I like that belts are visible locations for everyone in low sec: while grav sites also already offer an experience that's a bit closer to what you're describing.

I also would not, under any circumstances at all, want to lose the ability to get a heads up on probes while in my mining ship by using the directional scanner. It's a key defense. I'd rather have it than the "in built privacy" you're suggesting, but maybe that's just me.
Lord Rixus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-11-22 12:14:23 UTC
Faction war did it for me. I didnt want to leave hisec either, but When I found out i could make more isk pvping in fw than doing boring non pvp stuff, i jumped right in. Now I go all over.

Although shopping and transporting goods in low/null ******* sucks, so I stick to the fringe of hisec untill someday I join a full null corp or something.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2012-11-22 12:19:46 UTC
Play for a while....then come back.


Also...you have no clues how gate guns or bubbles work - learn it.
For friendly answers---> F12

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Doddy
Excidium.
#8 - 2012-11-22 12:26:39 UTC
I don't beleive for a second that new player retention is higher in hi sec than in null or lo sec ....... Also Industry would just move if there was no hi sec, it is only done in hi sec now because its cheaper/easier/safer. Not that i am advocating removing hi sec, just the op has some very strange presumptions.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#9 - 2012-11-22 12:37:47 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Play for a while....then come back.


This.

Invalid signature format
Harland White
Adventurer's Guild
#10 - 2012-11-22 12:46:36 UTC
It's fine how it is. Why is everyone hell-bent on changing something that isn't broken.

By their fruit you will recognize them.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#11 - 2012-11-22 12:57:51 UTC
Dude, you got it all wrong...

You're supposto gank as much high sec dwellers as you possibly can. Just to try and force them into 0.0, which will have a 1/3 chance of being in your Powerbloc. Thus forcing a particular play style on players by making them a faceless grunt, just to further your ego since your RL sucks...

...
Sorlac
Cosmos Industrial
Cosmos Origins
#12 - 2012-11-22 12:59:48 UTC
So your idea to entice miners into Low and Null sec is to make it so that they can't bring protection with them to the asteroid belts unless the guards scan down those they are supposed to protect first? All that change would do is have the hunters use a mining alt to find the belts, scan down their alt, and then blow up the unprotected miners as they warp to the belts.
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#13 - 2012-11-22 13:22:46 UTC
Null Sec PvP you say?, theres absolutely no reason to go there, none at all. Faction Warfare corps & RvB have killed more ships this month than all of null and low combined. Don't believe me? Check the stats. Until the sea of blue changes this will continue and therefore little or no reason to go there.

......................................................
Torkya Titzoff
Titzoff Obsfucated Operations and Logistics
#14 - 2012-11-22 13:28:11 UTC
Meh .. got sick of reading posts about how broken null and low are so I put up suggestions, if there is nothing wrong with it all good Cool
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#15 - 2012-11-22 13:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Torkya Titzoff wrote:

Mining Veldspar and Scordite should be easy … that's how we train new miners ! But it shouldn't be an ISK fountain. Looking at blueprints as they are now, Tritanium and Pyerite are the single most needed metals there are. It takes huge amounts of either or both just to make the most basic items. As an example my 3 month old sort of manufacturing alt has the following requirements to make a simple T1 armor hardener.

Reactive Armor Hardener metal prices from Sinq Liaison

Nocxium 3 @ 659 each = 1977
Zydrine 2 @ 807 each = 1614
Pyerite 20378 @ 10.25 each = 208874.5
Tritanium 25392 @ 5.5 = 139656

Now if I was looking to make money from metals … I sure as hell know where Im going to make the most. Why would I take the risk of trying to mine ores for Noxcium and Zydrine when I can afk mine easy money from Veldspar and Scordite?


You talk about risk:reward yet it's a bit more complex than that.

ATM risk at mining in null is low enough that high ends tanked, ISK in hi sec was better because for months (before the barges buff) it was actually easier to get popped in hi sec than in null sec.

Even now that barges have been buffed, the low ends ISK values are high because the high ends are low (the two categories form a complimentary basket) and the high ends are low because the endless nullsec blue balls allow to drop risk.

So, to recap:

Your very risk:reward statement is at the source of low prices for high ends.
Hi sec has to deliver bad volume:value stuff stuff both so there's more low ends demand even with the barges buff.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-11-22 13:44:13 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Torkya Titzoff wrote:

Mining Veldspar and Scordite should be easy … that's how we train new miners ! But it shouldn't be an ISK fountain. Looking at blueprints as they are now, Tritanium and Pyerite are the single most needed metals there are. It takes huge amounts of either or both just to make the most basic items. As an example my 3 month old sort of manufacturing alt has the following requirements to make a simple T1 armor hardener.

Reactive Armor Hardener metal prices from Sinq Liaison

Nocxium 3 @ 659 each = 1977
Zydrine 2 @ 807 each = 1614
Pyerite 20378 @ 10.25 each = 208874.5
Tritanium 25392 @ 5.5 = 139656

Now if I was looking to make money from metals … I sure as hell know where Im going to make the most. Why would I take the risk of trying to mine ores for Noxcium and Zydrine when I can afk mine easy money from Veldspar and Scordite?


You talk about risk:reward yet it's a bit more complex than that.

ATM risk at mining in null is low enough that high ends tanked, ISK in hi sec was better because for months (before the barges buff) it was actually easier to get popped in hi sec than in null sec.

Even now that barges have been buffed, the low ends ISK values are high because the high ends are low (the two categories form a complimentary basket) and the high ends are low because the endless nullsec blue balls allow to drop risk.

So, to recap:

Your very risk:reward statement is at the source of low prices for high ends.
Hi sec has to deliver bad volume:value stuff stuff both so there's more low ends demand even with the barges buff.



Well that cuts to the chase...
Now even I want to mine...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-11-22 16:04:46 UTC


I disagree completely that there should be any serious industry in High Sec, why?

If you make Null the default place for industrial operations of any size the null alliances will fall voer each other to recruit miners, manufacturers and traders and this will spawn massive numbers of PVP targets and make people fight over sov again meaningfully.


You then get the choice of make little ISK in high sec where you are safe or take the risky leap and go and live in Null / Low and play the game to it's full potential.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#18 - 2012-11-22 16:19:15 UTC
OP clearly has no idea how industry works. Go away.
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
#19 - 2012-11-22 19:30:08 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Most highsecers simply will never touch low/null. There really isnt anything you can do to convince them to try it. Alliances offer 100% free pvp ships and training and the best rats, roids, etc. You explain to them exactly how 0.0 sov is safer then highsec due to having 10 jumps of intel between you and any hostiles, yet they still refuse to try it. You explain that even a noob with half a brain will make more isk in 0.0, counting his losses, then he would highsec, but he still doesn't care.



But there is the crux of the problem for a significant part (maybe the majority) of EVE players...nullsec is not for casual play.

Although my main is primarily in hi-sec, he has lived in null with a couple of alliances - and it simply wasn't FUN anymore. CTA's, TS, Vent and Mumble on at the same time, plant a TCU and then replant it after the other guys blow it up, fleet up and sit around for 3 hours doing nothing...why would I want to pay money to do that? Sure, someone in the alliance is living the dream of being a spaceship hero, but it wasn't me!

So I dip in and out of the game for a few hours a week, run some L4's or do some scanning, just as if EVE was a sandbox game..oh wait, it is is, and that's how I want my sandbox to be, now.

Good luck to people who keep coming up with suggestions about how to make null attractive to players, but, in the nearly 4 years I've been playing and reading the forums, I've learnt that there's nothing new under the sun.

We are stuck with what CCP have led us into, so lets just get on and play the game!
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-11-22 19:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Fractal Muse
What's wrong with 0.0?

First explain that before trying to fix it.

Hestia Mar, it sounds like your 0.0 experience was based entirely upon the corp you joined. Experiences will differ in 0.0 just like in high sec, low sec, or wormhole space depending on whom you play with. If what you were doing in 0.0 didn't appeal to you then you should have found a different corp that was doing something different in 0.0.

I have played in 0.0 a few times and each time it has been a very different experience based on the group of people I was with and our objectives. For awhile, I was a total carebear (and loved it) in 0.0, and played the most casual EVE I ever have: log in for 20 minutes, rat some belts, and log off. Made lots of ISK doing just that. That's as casual of play I can think of for any game. Play for a little here and there, have fun, do your own thing, and make in-game money doing so.
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