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How BF3's turn for the worse resembles EVE's

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Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2012-11-22 11:19:32 UTC
Warning: This link is like 5 posts worth of information about bf3.
http://www.mordorhq.com/showthread.php?3880-The-True-Story-of-Battlefield-3-the-Battlefield-Franchise-Its-Community-amp-EA-DICE

The part i'm interested is near the end, i'll quote:
Quote:
If you are new to the Battlefield franchise (Bad Company 1 through Battlefield 3) you are part of the new audience. Players that have enjoyed Codename Eagle up to 2142 are part of the old fan base.

First let me say this to the new guard, if you are enjoying Battlefield 3… great. I’m glad that you are and I wouldn’t try to convince you that the game is not fun or that you shouldn’t be playing it. That being said, the new guard has absolutely no right to tell the old guard, “if you don’t like it, leave” or “quit complaining.”

Hear me out. I’ll tell you why I think so. The old fans are the reason the franchise has lasted to make the sequels you now enjoy. The old fans know the legacy the franchise has built. They know what makes the series unique and have certain expectations based on previous entries.

More than that though is the following point that I posit to you in a hypothetical. You enjoy Battlefield 3 for its insane amount of unlocks, the destruction, the vehicles. Let’s suppose Battlefield 4 removes all of those things. Whatever you liked about Battlefield 3 is removed from Battlefield 4 and a bunch of people new to the series end up loving it. It’s great, fun, better than anything else out there. Battlefield 4: Barbie’s IRS Lecture Seminar has nothing resembling your beloved Battlefield 3 but the fans won’t allow you to criticize because they love it. If you don’t like it, leave.


This right here is exactly how i've felt about the direction EVE has been taking regarding Highsec/Carebears.

We've got the oldschool eve pvp'ers who are the reason EVE is so successful, who know EVE is all about the ruthless PVP risk.
And then we have the newer players, who enjoy collecting things in highsec and doing their mining/missioning thing.

CCP has basically done what EA/Dice has done, and catered to the new crowd. Every patch increases CONCORD response times and limits pirating options. Players will shout "HTFU AND ADAPT" but this doesnt change the fact that PVP is being nerfed repeatedly in favor of carebear safety. The new players even say things like "but this is what i want to do", "pirates are ruining the game" etc...

How many PVP'ers have joined Hello Kitty Online and complained that the lack of PVP is destroying HKO? None. Because you dont play a game like HKO for the PVP. Its absurd to join it and then complain that there isnt pvp. Over at eve this is exactly whats going on though. We have a bunch of players who want to do nothing but grind for their 'best lvl 70 armors' for their highsec Golem and thats all they want to do, and they complain to CCP (successfull) to make fundamental mechanics changes to nerf PVP so that they can play WOW-in-Space.


"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Esha Ditrix
#2 - 2012-11-22 11:34:25 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
We've got the oldschool eve pvp'ers who are the reason EVE is so successful, who know EVE is all about the ruthless PVP risk.
And then we have the newer players, who enjoy collecting things in highsec and doing their mining/missioning thing.

yea, ur not biased at all...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174528&find=unread

read that, its about you...

Its not an exploit, if the game lets you do it...
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2012-11-22 11:40:05 UTC
Esha Ditrix wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
We've got the oldschool eve pvp'ers who are the reason EVE is so successful, who know EVE is all about the ruthless PVP risk.
And then we have the newer players, who enjoy collecting things in highsec and doing their mining/missioning thing.

yea, ur not biased at all...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174528&find=unread

read that, its about you...

I did read it. I dont think you did though.

Apart from my use of the words "carebear", im not advocating that we nerf highsec to make room for 0.0.

Quote:
Wrong. Burning hi-sec to the ground won't do a single thing to help null. In fact wrecking hi-sec would strangle null within a few months at best - we've already seen that nerfing hi-sec incursions did not, mysteriously, revitalise 0.0. Making it impossible to build T2 ships in Empire would be just as effective. Moving all level 4 missions out of hi-sec will not fill the belts of null. It just won't. I know many of you think it should; perhaps in a just world it would. But it won't. You can't force people to play a game they don't feel that they want to play.

Equally misguided are the narrowly focused vocal hi-sec uber alles types who just wish that all the drama-llama nullsecers and Jack Sparrows in lo-sec would just go away. They want CCP to endsolung the problem with a server split or, failing that, PvP-flag hi-sec.


Exactly this. The problem is that CCP has decided to hear out the people who complain about the pirates, and are activly working to change EVE's mechanics to cater to them. Essentially nerfing pirates to buff carebears.

Quote:
(2) Beware of the zero-sum. When someone says that we need to nerf A in order to boost B, the first question you should ask is if there's a way to boost B without nerfing A. If B is unattractive, then nerfing A won't make it any better, it will only reduce the overall attractiveness of the game.

And again, this.

and finally:
Quote:
(1) Big generalisations are a danger sign. Whenever you are tempted by an argument that relies on characterising "all hi-seccers" or "nullbears" or "ganktards" or whatever, treat that argument with extreme skepticism.

He says treat it with skepticism, not ignore it flatout. Im sorry i used generalizations, but there is no other way to really word it. Many of the people who enjoy sitting in highsec all day mining/missioning/etc complain about the pirates, and CCP listens to them.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#4 - 2012-11-22 11:41:15 UTC
I know plenty of "Carebears" and high-sec risk adverse dwellers that aren't new players.

Since this is generally what your comparison is based on, it's not a valid comparison in my eyes.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-11-22 11:45:54 UTC
Dearest OP,

The sky is falling, Confirm or Deny?

Best Wishes,
Skippermonkey

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2012-11-22 11:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Silk daShocka wrote:
I know plenty of "Carebears" and high-sec risk adverse dwellers that aren't new players.

Since this is generally what your comparison is based on, it's not a valid comparison in my eyes.


Again, sorry for my generalizations. Im not talking about the players who are happy with highsec, or want extra highsec features etc. thats all great and wonderful. I'm 100% in favor of CCP adding more highsec content and features. I'm absolutely not asking for highsec to be nerfed.

I'm simply pointing out that pirating/low/null is actively being nerfed in favor of the vocal whiners who hate pirates/low/null. Most of these whiners are in fact newer players (i admit there are probably some older ones as well). The game is being catered to a different group of player. A group that isnt exactly PVP-oriented. EVE was originally designed to be a heavy PVP game. They are nerfing the PVP in favor of PVE players who hate PVP.

My original point was that EA/DICE are doing the same thing, and the older Battlefield crowd feels alienated much like many older PVP players in eve do.(i said many, meaning not all, dont yell at me for generalizing again)

If you read the full bf3 post, you'll see that many of the hardcore features that made battlefield a household name have been removed to make it easier to understand for new players. One obvious feature is the Commander mode. Gone.

CCP is doing something similar, changing the entire game mechanics in order to make the game friendlier to those who dont like PVP. Alienating many PVP players who were the reason EVE is alive today.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#7 - 2012-11-22 11:52:41 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
I know plenty of "Carebears" and high-sec risk adverse dwellers that aren't new players.

Since this is generally what your comparison is based on, it's not a valid comparison in my eyes.


Again, sorry for my generalizations. Im not talking about the players who are happy with highsec, or want extra highsec features etc. thats all great and wonderful. I'm 100% in favor of CCP adding more highsec content and features. I'm absolutely not asking for highsec to be nerfed.

I'm simply pointing out that pirating/low/null is actively being nerfed in favor of the vocal whiners who hate pirates/low/null.


So, Orca corp hangars being scannable and dropping loot is a nerf to pirates/low/null? I thought certain groups of "pirates" if you want to call them that would rejoice at these changes.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2012-11-22 11:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Silk daShocka wrote:


So, Orca corp hangars being scannable and dropping loot is a nerf to pirates/low/null? I thought certain groups of "pirates" if you want to call them that would rejoice at these changes.

I would call that more of a long-needed BUG FIX, not an added feature.

If you want an example of what im talking about, consider that ganking freighters in highsec will be a thing of the past after the new crimewatch system is in place.

I guess i should elaborate. Being a highsec ganker, many people have killrights on me. After the new crimewatch system, anyone anywhere will be able to rightclick me > activate killright. I'm now killable by anyone/everyone. Consider a fleet of suicide battleships waiting for their freighter to jump through the gate. Players can safely rightclick>activate kill right, and gank our ships before the freighter is even decloaked. Highsec ganking is becoming harder and harder.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Tawnia Baker
Deep Space Mining and Construction
#9 - 2012-11-22 11:55:59 UTC
Uhm so if that would be true, then tell me, how its possible that i see in high sec so many orcas, obelisks , T2 ships and much more a new player normally cant fly them.

Funny is, in highsec you find so many 0 sec and low sec people trying to get some isk so they can buy something they lost in low or 0, but also most of thsi people now cry for some sort of highsec nerf.


But why?
You say that CCP is buffing concords response times and much more, and sure if that happens it would change something, but it would not change piracy ingame, it would only change stupid ganking in highsec and that is somethign that should really be changed.
Or do you think its fun if your as example mackinaw is killed by someone who calls himself a pirate with a ship tat only costs few hundred thousand ISK and is finished before concord arrive and kill him, only to loot the wreck with another account?

So no thats really not fun. Also its not piracy, it woudl be piracy if he loot your wreck with the SAME ACCOUNT AND SAME PLAYER he used to shot you, but that would not happen cause then its a higher risk.

And thats one of the problems, this so called pirates are most of the time only coward wannabes using 2 or 3 accounts to gank other people, so tell me how can this be piracy?

Sure also Highsec should not be 100% safe but in highsec there must be a 90% safety chance (in sectors lets say above 0.6) that if someone attack you concord come and safe you .

If you remove the safety of highsec or reduce it too much you wont bring more people to low sec you only force people out of the game.

Remeber not anyone is intersted in PVP and also not anyone has the time to do PVP or fleet ops every day.

Also dont forget the skills , new players sure can also fly a catalyst or a myrmidon but they will never ever have a chance against someone who is ingame since 2 years and is skilling his fighting stuff.

so what is your problem with safety of high sec?It does not hurt you it also does not stop you from doing PVP, in low and 0 sec are enough players who wanna do pvp so why not try a fight with this people?

And really thats a question i ask me every day, why the hell so many "pirates" are whining about low sec, if i fly through low and 0 i see enough pirates and enough other players to find a fight if i wanna do PVP , so why it is so important for some of you "pirates" to bring the people to low sec who never ever wanna do pvp and who cannot fight back?

Are you guys really sooo scared that if you find someone who can shoot back you loose your ship?
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2012-11-22 12:13:27 UTC
Tawnia Baker wrote:
Uhm so if that would be true, then tell me, how its possible that i see in high sec so many orcas, obelisks , T2 ships and much more a new player normally cant fly them.

Funny is, in highsec you find so many 0 sec and low sec people trying to get some isk so they can buy something they lost in low or 0, but also most of thsi people now cry for some sort of highsec nerf.


But why?
You say that CCP is buffing concords response times and much more, and sure if that happens it would change something, but it would not change piracy ingame, it would only change stupid ganking in highsec and that is somethign that should really be changed.
Or do you think its fun if your as example mackinaw is killed by someone who calls himself a pirate with a ship tat only costs few hundred thousand ISK and is finished before concord arrive and kill him, only to loot the wreck with another account?

So no thats really not fun. Also its not piracy, it woudl be piracy if he loot your wreck with the SAME ACCOUNT AND SAME PLAYER he used to shot you, but that would not happen cause then its a higher risk.

And thats one of the problems, this so called pirates are most of the time only coward wannabes using 2 or 3 accounts to gank other people, so tell me how can this be piracy?

Sure also Highsec should not be 100% safe but in highsec there must be a 90% safety chance (in sectors lets say above 0.6) that if someone attack you concord come and safe you .

If you remove the safety of highsec or reduce it too much you wont bring more people to low sec you only force people out of the game.

Remeber not anyone is intersted in PVP and also not anyone has the time to do PVP or fleet ops every day.

Also dont forget the skills , new players sure can also fly a catalyst or a myrmidon but they will never ever have a chance against someone who is ingame since 2 years and is skilling his fighting stuff.

so what is your problem with safety of high sec?It does not hurt you it also does not stop you from doing PVP, in low and 0 sec are enough players who wanna do pvp so why not try a fight with this people?

And really thats a question i ask me every day, why the hell so many "pirates" are whining about low sec, if i fly through low and 0 i see enough pirates and enough other players to find a fight if i wanna do PVP , so why it is so important for some of you "pirates" to bring the people to low sec who never ever wanna do pvp and who cannot fight back?

Are you guys really sooo scared that if you find someone who can shoot back you loose your ship?


Thank you for posting an example of what im talking about. I've bolded the relevant parts of your post. You represent exactly what is wrong with eve.

You've picked up a heavy PVP videogame, decided you want to PVE in it, and complain that you get blown up too easy.
Do you see me in Hello kitty online complaining that all the PVE'ers are ruining the game? No. I didnt join a PVE game, because i want to PVP. Why did you join a PVP game to PVE?

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
WrATH2Zero
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-11-22 12:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: WrATH2Zero
If you don't like how high sec works shove off to low sec but gankers and wannabe pirates are carebears too. Also, high sec isn't safe and if you plan on ganking in high sec then Concord will punish you, they don't defend anyway so stop claiming they defend "carebears".

If people want to gank they will get punished, if people want to ninja salvage they can get punished by the mission runner so I don't see a problem.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2012-11-22 12:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
WrATH2Zero wrote:
If you don't like how high sec works shove off to low sec but gankers and wannabe pirates are carebears too. Also, high sec isn't safe and if you plan on gankingh in high sec then Concord will punish you, they don't defend anyway so stop claiming they defend "carebears".


Quote:
More than that though is the following point that I posit to you in a hypothetical. You enjoy Battlefield 3 for its insane amount of unlocks, the destruction, the vehicles. Let’s suppose Battlefield 4 removes all of those things. Whatever you liked about Battlefield 3 is removed from Battlefield 4 and a bunch of people new to the series end up loving it. It’s great, fun, better than anything else out there. Battlefield 4: Barbie’s IRS Lecture Seminar has nothing resembling your beloved Battlefield 3 but the fans won’t allow you to criticize because they love it. If you don’t like it, leave.


If its not clear what im pointing out, let me be more clear.

EVE was designed ground-up as a hardcore PVP game. Over time EVE's PVP has been nerfed over and over again, and the safety of PVE has been buffed. Now when all of the hardcore PVP players login, they're presented with EVEONLINE: Barbie Edition. And all of the PVE'ers say "dont like it? leave".

EVE was developed as a PVP game. It was made successful by PVP players. And now its much more of a PVE collector game, and full of PVE'ers who will never stop whining until they're safe to mine for hours on end in highsec.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#13 - 2012-11-22 12:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Players can safely rightclick>activate kill right, and gank our ships before the freighter is even decloaked. Highsec ganking is becoming harder and harder.


Actually, if players make the kill right available to everyone for free/cheap, your friend can easily claim it and clear it for you by destroying you in a rookie ship. If players make the kill right available to everyone but for a significant cost, most people won't have the desire to pay to destroy a ship that's not really worth it (or you could factor that into the cost of the attack).

As mentioned in SoniClover's dev blog yesterday, this is an intentional design of the bounty system.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-11-22 12:18:24 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
Actually, if players make the kill right available to everyone for free/cheap, your friend can easily claim it and clear it for you by destroying you in a rookie ship. If players make the kill right available to everyone but for a significant cost, most people won't have the desire to pay to destroy a ship that's not really worth it (or you could factor that into the cost of the attack).

As mentioned in SoniClover's dev blog yesterday, this is an intentional design of the bounty system.

Theres a CCP post that specified this would be fixed. They've stated that being able to clear killrights via rookie ships/cheap t1's will not be possible.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#15 - 2012-11-22 12:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Silk daShocka
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:


So, Orca corp hangars being scannable and dropping loot is a nerf to pirates/low/null? I thought certain groups of "pirates" if you want to call them that would rejoice at these changes.

I would call that more of a long-needed BUG FIX, not an added feature.

If you want an example of what im talking about, consider that ganking freighters in highsec will be a thing of the past after the new crimewatch system is in place.

I guess i should elaborate. Being a highsec ganker, many people have killrights on me. After the new crimewatch system, anyone anywhere will be able to rightclick me > activate killright. I'm now killable by anyone/everyone. Consider a fleet of suicide battleships waiting for their freighter to jump through the gate. Players can safely rightclick>activate kill right, and gank our ships before the freighter is even decloaked. Highsec ganking is becoming harder and harder.


SO this is a nerf to PVP? Why because someone is going to blow your ship up instead of the other way around? Now maybe if you fight a tank on your gankships (kind of like how miners are told to fit a tank on their mining barge, your both farming isk after all), you can actually have a fight here.

Bug fix or not, orca changes are a buff to PVP, since there will be incentive to attack these ships if they are lugging around something worth taking.

As an example: Being a highsec ganker, how often have you attacked an orca in highsec in the past year?
WrATH2Zero
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-11-22 12:23:05 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
WrATH2Zero wrote:
If you don't like how high sec works shove off to low sec but gankers and wannabe pirates are carebears too. Also, high sec isn't safe and if you plan on gankingh in high sec then Concord will punish you, they don't defend anyway so stop claiming they defend "carebears".


Quote:
More than that though is the following point that I posit to you in a hypothetical. You enjoy Battlefield 3 for its insane amount of unlocks, the destruction, the vehicles. Let’s suppose Battlefield 4 removes all of those things. Whatever you liked about Battlefield 3 is removed from Battlefield 4 and a bunch of people new to the series end up loving it. It’s great, fun, better than anything else out there. Battlefield 4: Barbie’s IRS Lecture Seminar has nothing resembling your beloved Battlefield 3 but the fans won’t allow you to criticize because they love it. If you don’t like it, leave.


If its not clear what im pointing out, let me be more clear.

EVE was designed ground-up as a hardcore PVP game. Over time EVE's PVP has been nerfed over and over again, and the safety of PVE has been buffed. Now when all of the hardcore PVP players login, they're presented with EVEONLINE: Barbie Edition. And all of the PVE'ers say "dont like it? leave".

EVE was developed as a PVP game. It was made successful by PVP players. And now its much more of a PVE collector game, and full of PVE'ers who will never stop whining until they're safe to mine for hours on end in highsec.


You don't have a point, stay down high sec then or run faction warfare and kill ships all day every day, problem solved. High sec is a choice and people who mine and do such thing don't have the ability to defend anyway, I just don't see what your point is.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2012-11-22 12:23:16 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
SO this is a nerf to PVP? Why because someone is going to blow your ship up instead of the other way around? Now maybe if you fight a tank on your gankships, you can actually have a fight here.

Bug fix or not, orca changes are a buff to PVP, since there will be incentive to attack these ships if they are lugging around something worth taking.

As an example: Being a highsec ganker, how often have you attacked an orca in highsec in the past year?

Are you trolling? I'm not quite sure.

Yes its a nerf to PVP. What was do-able yesterday will not be do-able tomorrow. The change effectively removed a PVP option. Like it or hate it, thats what it did. Removing/disabling/'toning down' things is referred to as "nerfing" them.

tanking gankships is silly. Concord already has absurd ammounts of damage/ECM (far, FAR more then they had a few years ago). If i throw a big tank on my ship its not going to help it survive against concord, who will ECM me so i cant apply DPS, then kill me. Concord will kill me reguardless of tank or not. To gank in highsec, you need to do as much DPS as possible before concord gets you. A tank will not change that

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Ah Chuy Kak
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-11-22 12:25:45 UTC
Mmmmmmm 'Pirate' tears, sooooo tasty, yummmmmmm
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-11-22 12:26:14 UTC
Oh please OP, you can't compare EA's DICE with CCP, CCP actually you know...cares about their audience about 10 times more.
EA DICE "promised" to deliver a game that's better than BF2/2142 w/mods but what we got was a generic "cod-ified" fps with a low skill ceiling.
-3d spotting
-very small maps for run n gun(or rather spray and pray)
-overpowered lockon weapons that lets solo engineers win vs tanks 1v1( i was in top 3% for tanks)
-no commander
-small squads
-no VOIP(seriously...)
-suppression that makes your bullets go everywhere BUT the target
-metro map(oh god the horrible corridor) that was "the most played"
- full kit/vehicle/everything unlocks with $$$$

So as you can see....CCP are so much better than DICE and you are just overreacting. It's not as if the upcoming expansion lets you buy an additional highslot with $ for a DD or something.

The difference is that BF3 was targeted at the "new*coughcodcough" audience and old players were lied to with a straight face. It's not like CCP promised to make a game as you imagined it to be and then released a poor version of it.

Eve isn't getting dumbed down as much as BF3, it's just getting more appealing to new players by looking less confusing. Core mechanics are still the same as when I started in 2007(well, mostly :P).


What upcoming changes are you actually worried about ?
Tyvm for providing the link, Im glad that mordor is still alive and well.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2012-11-22 12:27:54 UTC
WrATH2Zero wrote:

You don't have a point, stay down high sec then or run faction warfare and kill ships all day every day, problem solved. High sec is a choice and people who mine and do such thing don't have the ability to defend anyway, I just don't see what your point is.

I know you dont.

My point is that unwanted PVP in eve was an intended feature. read my signature.

The idea that you want to sit in highsec and mine all day, without worrying about getting blown up by a player, is absurd. That is not the way eve was meant to be. I know its what YOU want it to be, and you insist it should be that way and you tell people like me to bugger off back to 0.0 if i want PVP. You've completely missed the point.

EVE was not designed for people to sit in highsec and mine all day safely, reguardless of how much you want to do this.

EVE became successful because it stood out. Name one other MMO with seriously hardcore PVP rules like EVE has/had. Nerfing PVP and buffing PVE is simply changing EVE from what made it unique, into just another online MMO crapshoot. If i wanted to sit there shooting NPC's all day, i'd play WOW or something. People came to eve because of what made it different from the other MMO's, and that difference is fading.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
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