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EVE Online Development Strategy (CSM Public)

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Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#201 - 2012-11-22 02:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinzor Aumer
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
This is a video game, folks. It's about having fun, not doing more work. There are two ways to make less supercaps exist - make them take longer to build (boring) or make them die faster (ridiculously fun).

FYI production can be fun, mining can be fun. If it's not appealing to you personally - doesnt mean it's not for me as well.
And this point stands regardless of supercapitals.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#202 - 2012-11-22 02:57:07 UTC
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
FYI production can be fun, mining can be fun. If it's not appealing to you personally - doesnt mean it's not for me as well. And this point stands regardless of supercapitals.


Well yes. My point wasn't that mining and industry is inherently unfun (I mine highsec ice, make POS fuel, and cook drugs), but rather that increasing build times through various means isn't exactly doing anything to make that process more fun. That will only come through a true overhaul of manufacturing processes.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Herschel Yamamoto
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-11-22 03:32:53 UTC
Re industry changes, make sure that you propose mechanics that will eliminate bottlenecks inherently, instead of trying to balance them by hand. A good system is one like T1 minerals, where the supplies of the various minerals are basically uncorrelated, and people can supply more of whatever's short. A painfully bad system is one like T3 salvage, where players have zero control over production ratios, and where literally every ship/subsystems combination uses literally identical salvage(which is, of course, why T3 salvage has been entirely dependant on a single bottleneck ever since it was created). Ensure variety of supply and variety of demand, and market forces will clean up bottlenecks for you.

Mara Rinn wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Supercaps and caps being able to tackle other supercaps means once two supercap fleets are committed to battle you can't clear tackle and escape: you have to actually kill enough of the other side (and/or leave your tackled friends to die) to escape.


What is the difference between being tackled by HICs versus dreadnoughts that would prevent ships escaping once they have cleared tacklers?


The obvious difference is that titans are harder to kill(not dreads, which are actually pretty easy for a titan fleet to down, but this was proposed as a supercap module and not merely a capital one)
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2012-11-22 03:47:38 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
FYI production can be fun, mining can be fun. If it's not appealing to you personally - doesnt mean it's not for me as well. And this point stands regardless of supercapitals.
Well yes. My point wasn't that mining and industry is inherently unfun (I mine highsec ice, make POS fuel, and cook drugs), but rather that increasing build times through various means isn't exactly doing anything to make that process more fun. That will only come through a true overhaul of manufacturing processes.
Backpedaling!

Classic, Hans! Don't want to alienate any potential CSM8 voters.
Frying Doom
#205 - 2012-11-22 04:05:44 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
FYI production can be fun, mining can be fun. If it's not appealing to you personally - doesnt mean it's not for me as well. And this point stands regardless of supercapitals.
Well yes. My point wasn't that mining and industry is inherently unfun (I mine highsec ice, make POS fuel, and cook drugs), but rather that increasing build times through various means isn't exactly doing anything to make that process more fun. That will only come through a true overhaul of manufacturing processes.
Backpedaling!

Classic, Hans! Don't want to alienate any potential CSM8 voters.

You should try the other thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2210786#post2210786
Where he uses the line "Do you think its responsible for CCP to spend an entire year working on something that affects a small portion of the population, when they could be fixing an area of space that affects multiple times that many players and subcriptions and potential subscriptions? " as a justification for fixing Null but totally misses the point that he is actually giving better reasons for spending more resources on Hi-sec and not Null. Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#206 - 2012-11-22 04:09:59 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Zaine Maltis wrote:
Er... are you channelling Issler Dainze, or have they just stolen your login?


It's custom to repeatedly mock anyone who signs their own posts on a forum when their name is literally attached to the content already written.

Issler


So it must be even cooler to mock someone who signs someone else's name to their posts.

So when you right a letter or email to someone do you sign it? In both cases you can see where they come from.

Snow Axe

OK, actually Issler
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2012-11-22 04:17:13 UTC
Is it just me, or is it kinda hilarious that the CSM reps who are weighing in most heavily on nullsec issues are not particularly knowledgeable about nullsec? Hans. Issler. And to a lesser extent, Aleks.

(Aleks is probably the closest we have here to a CSM representative who understands anything about nullsec.)

Hell, Kelduum should start weighing in now.

(Aren't there some actual nullsec representatives?)
Frying Doom
#208 - 2012-11-22 04:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Is it just me, or is it kinda hilarious that the CSM reps who are weighing in most heavily on nullsec issues are not particularly knowledgeable about nullsec? Hans. Issler. And to a lesser extent, Aleks.

(Aleks is probably the closest we have here to a CSM representative who understands anything about nullsec.)

Hell, Kelduum should start weighing in now.

(Aren't there some actual nullsec representatives?)

But then again, can we argue if some of them get dribble on the paperwork or don't understand that liquid paper does not work on monitors?

Lets face it they could not be mentally well adjusted or be too intelligent, if they are happy to give out their full names to a bunch of wierdos sitting at computers.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#209 - 2012-11-22 04:47:18 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Is it just me, or is it kinda hilarious that the CSM reps who are weighing in most heavily on nullsec issues are not particularly knowledgeable about nullsec? Hans. Issler. And to a lesser extent, Aleks.

(Aleks is probably the closest we have here to a CSM representative who understands anything about nullsec.)

Hell, Kelduum should start weighing in now.

(Aren't there some actual nullsec representatives?)


Null sec residents are all dicks. Their representatives are just continuing that tradition for taking the icelandic trip then doing nothing. Just to be a ****, just to be a null sec resident representative.

Who cares about null sec anyhow? They don't care, why should we?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#210 - 2012-11-22 07:31:25 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Is it just me, or is it kinda hilarious that the CSM reps who are weighing in most heavily on nullsec issues are not particularly knowledgeable about nullsec? Hans. Issler. And to a lesser extent, Aleks.

(Aleks is probably the closest we have here to a CSM representative who understands anything about nullsec.)

Hell, Kelduum should start weighing in now.

(Aren't there some actual nullsec representatives?)


Null sec residents are all dicks. Their representatives are just continuing that tradition for taking the icelandic trip then doing nothing. Just to be a ****, just to be a null sec resident representative.

Who cares about null sec anyhow? They don't care, why should we?


There's something you should read.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#211 - 2012-11-22 07:55:41 UTC
^ So we need each other?

You do know, the goons denounce and try to burn freeports right? As well as other groups probably would as well.

Perhaps, the idea of improving things is a bit wishy washy with how many players support burning stations and totally **** ******* other people in null.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#212 - 2012-11-22 13:53:57 UTC
If you want to nerf supercaps, do it by buffing Dictors and Hictors (or their bubbles, at least). The problem with letting supercaps tackle supercaps is that it further marginalises sub-cap involvement in supercap-level combat and turns it into a 2010-era 'check who has the most, side with less stands down' blueballfest since the only way to extract your tackled supercaps is the one dimensional DPS vs EHP numbers-game of killing the hostile tackling supercaps.

(Not that this thread is really a supercap nerf thread, nor that we needed another one, but here we are)

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#213 - 2012-11-22 14:06:31 UTC
rodyas wrote:
^ So we need each other?

You do know, the goons denounce and try to burn freeports right? As well as other groups probably would as well.

Perhaps, the idea of improving things is a bit wishy washy with how many players support burning stations and totally **** ******* other people in null.


I support "burning stations". But I even more support stations worth building in the first place.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-11-22 15:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Whilst I'm late to the party (another week til I get broadband installed in my new place :( ) and skimming a little to catch up, this is exactly the sort of thing that we need to see more of from the CSM. Whilst a lot of the content seems to be common sense, common sense is a currency that has sometimes seemed to be in short supply in CCP, and sometimes even stating the obvious helps to keep the right people on the right track by reminding them what the obvious is. I'd be interested in seeing other 'critical issues' bought up using the same template as was used here by anyone who thinks they can make a worthwhile case for them (and to be honest, maybe the specific 0.0 / industry / POS discussions could be split away into separate threads)

Perhaps the CSM or a CCPer could drop in here and update us on whether there has been a favourable response within the company to this?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
LoRDa RaMOs
Vicious Traditions
#215 - 2012-11-22 15:40:29 UTC
Posting to support these suggestions from our costumer elected sounding board with stakeholder status Lol

Only one comment: Although it would be somewhat against our best interests of seeing a shiny new EVE, it doesn't really take big features to have my satisfaction. I, for one, would like to see more work on existing features (eg. UI, feature corification) and somewhat forgotten professions (e.g. hacking, analysing) and fixing/swatting away useless stuff (e.g. Zainou 'Snapshot' Defender Missiles DM-806).
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#216 - 2012-11-22 16:35:29 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Perhaps the CSM or a CCPer could drop in here and update us on whether there has been a favourable response within the company to this?


Believe me, we are very much looking forward to talking about everything that led to this document, how it was received and the resultant changes that may or may not have taken place because of it. The past few weeks have been extremely active between the CSM and CCP and I suspect that will continue up until the December summit.

The dates for the summit are 12-14 December, BTW.

Due to CCP's heavy planning right now, it's not our place to talk just yet about what they have in the pipe for 2013. I suspect we will get an even clearer picture at the summit. We are going to work very hard to get the summit minutes out, as well as release any and all information we can, ASAP.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#217 - 2012-11-22 22:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Sinzor Aumer wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
This is a video game, folks. It's about having fun, not doing more work. There are two ways to make less supercaps exist - make them take longer to build (boring) or make them die faster (ridiculously fun).

FYI production can be fun, mining can be fun. If it's not appealing to you personally - doesnt mean it's not for me as well.
And this point stands regardless of supercapitals.


Do you, personally, mine?

If so, do you personally sit there monitoring your ship the entire time? Are you using a hulk to maximize your yield, or a mackinaw to make it easier?

If the answers to those questions are "No" and "mackinaw" then no, you do not find mining fun.

Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Is it just me, or is it kinda hilarious that the CSM reps who are weighing in most heavily on nullsec issues are not particularly knowledgeable about nullsec? Hans. Issler. And to a lesser extent, Aleks.


You get your panties in a twist over the mere idea that Hans takes his marching orders regarding the game from Susan Black. Who's to say he's not taking marching orders - or, to be less insanely paranoid and hyperbolic, simply getting input - from players who are "in the know" about nullsec?

e: To put that in a somewhat more general sense, the ability and willingness of a CSM member to listen to the community is, to me, far more important than their individual knowledge of an aspect about the game (even if that's what gets them elected). You don't think that The Mittani, who's effectiveness on the CSM cannot be questioned, personally knew everything about every topic the CSM addressed, do you?

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2012-11-23 00:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:


I'm sorry to keep harping on it, but your own presentation of the issue in this document suggests that you don't actually understand why mineral compression even exists, let alone what the positives/negatives of it are. That's something far too large to chalk up to "getting lost in the weeds".

I'm sorry too ;p

Frankly, the way you keep on it suggests to me YOU dont know why mineral compression exists. It exists because way way way way back at the dawn of EVE (before cap ships, let along outposts and supers) CCP made Magic Modules that refine for a larger volume of minerals than the item itself.

Today, players take advantage of this by buying these modules in empire and jumping them out to 0.0 where they are refined and reused for things that can't be purchased from empire (supercaps, for instance) as well as to fill in gaps in producing common daily needs (ammo) because there is no incentive to mine low end minerals in 0.0. This gap exists because CCP has neglected 0.0 broadly and its industrial self sufficiency in particular.

You seem to be under the impression Magic Modules were intentionally put in by CCP to support 0.0 industry. Rather it was just a lack of foresight that players have been taking advantage of to compensate for the lack of 0.0 industrial capacity and viable 0.0 low end mining. If 0.0 had viable, high-volume sources of low end minerals that players would WANT to mine (which is exactly what the example which references mineral compression includes as its headline feature) there's really no reason for Magic Modules to continue to exist. As significant a portion of the player base would like compression removed for one reason or another as want it to stay; if the reason why 0.0 players "need" it were to finally get addressed, both groups could have their concerns laid to rest.

This supports the approach/theme reinforced throughout the entire document: finally commit to addressing long standing sucking chest-wound level problems with EVE's core mechanics, and do so in a way that appeals to mutliple sections of the playerbase (both in activity area and demographic).

It's unfortunate that message was lost in your attachment to a small part of one of three examples included to illustrate what that approach could look like in an actual EVE Online expansion. I am, however, thankful for your feedback and the feedback of the rest of the players on both the approach advocated and on the merits of specific recommendations. I would like to reinforce the points made by corestwo and Seleene that if a serious response from CCP is desired, keeping the discussion constructive and somewhat focused on forest vs the trees is important.



FINALLY!
This has been an issue of mineral compression and the lack of bulk low end materials have made local mining of minerals for T1 ships impossible!
This is a major barrier to entry for small alliances with a young industry back bone from entering into the nulsec life
If some thing like this goes through PVPers will see more juicy targets to shoot at as the role of mineral supply is moved from the 1 man with a jump freighter and cyno alts to individual miners and multi box mining lovers.

I agree with this direction.
--now to add my dream.
I have always loved the idea of null sec being a place where minerals and Ore is Plenty, but since the riches are plenty in Null sec, refining is not common nor necessary. (deeper null sec rating has a negative effect on processing)(positive amount on ores amounts)

If any mineral compression would be from Null sec to High sec. Though more likely in the form of Ore Compression. As bulk ore is compress and jumped to High sec for better refining rates to sell the goods. Since the Refining of components would suck in Null sec, the export of completed ships would be coming out of empire vs random components.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2012-11-23 01:12:06 UTC
corestwo wrote:
e: To put that in a somewhat more general sense, the ability and willingness of a CSM member to listen to the community is, to me, far more important than their individual knowledge of an aspect about the game (even if that's what gets them elected). You don't think that The Mittani, who's effectiveness on the CSM cannot be questioned, personally knew everything about every topic the CSM addressed, do you?
I do not think he knew about every area of the game.

But he would flat out say "I don't know about this, nor do I care about it." He didn't try to be johnny-on-the-spot in areas of the game he didn't know much about, or had little stake in.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#220 - 2012-11-23 02:58:47 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
corestwo wrote:
e: To put that in a somewhat more general sense, the ability and willingness of a CSM member to listen to the community is, to me, far more important than their individual knowledge of an aspect about the game (even if that's what gets them elected). You don't think that The Mittani, who's effectiveness on the CSM cannot be questioned, personally knew everything about every topic the CSM addressed, do you?
I do not think he knew about every area of the game.

But he would flat out say "I don't know about this, nor do I care about it." He didn't try to be johnny-on-the-spot in areas of the game he didn't know much about, or had little stake in.

You and I seem to know very different versions of Hans then.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo