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Sleipnir, Loki, Vargur or Machariel for lvl 4 missions
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Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#1 - 2011-10-20 23:32:44 UTC
Hello guys.

Never really posted in here before, and in fact, I may be in the wrong forum.

Anyways, I need some advice. I have Marauders trained to V, and I currently pilot a Paladin and a Kronos for missions. I've pretty much maxed out those two ships. Large pulse laser spec. V actually, but beams, rails and blasters are at IV. Don't plan on training those to V in the near future. I'm currently training Minmatar cruiser IV, and I've only got small projectiles trained to V, in addition to small autocannon spec. III.

My problem is: Angels. Both my ships take too long to kill them. Blasters make short work of them, but the ones that don't orbit close take forever to kill (before I close range that is). Rails are extremely inefficient. Thus I've decided to train up for a more suitable ship, that can deal explosive damage.

The question is, which ship is better. Or rather, the questions are:

1. Which ship is better in the long run?
2. Which ship is faster to train for, and is it worth training for that before moving on to the better ship?

I haven't trained any of the t3 skills yet. I have command ships III already, as long term I'm plannning on getting some command ships for incursions. Right now I'm focusing on my mission boats though.

So what say you o' mighty ships and modules forumers? Which minmatar is going to guarante me satisfaction?

PS: I know I'm caldari, but I have 500K sp in missiles. I hate missiles. I used to fly a rokh.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
stoicfaux
#2 - 2011-10-20 23:53:52 UTC
Mach is the faster/easier to get into and is arguably the "best" choice. The Mach's major advantage over the Vargur is speed, where speed is used to reduce DPS loss due to falloff. The Vargur's strengths are an easy tank, efficient use of RF ammo, and looting/salvaging.

The Sleip and Loki are "useless" for level 4s due to a lack of range.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#3 - 2011-10-20 23:55:14 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Mach is the faster/easier to get into and is arguably the "best" choice. The Mach's major advantage over the Vargur is speed, where speed is used to reduce DPS loss due to falloff. The Vargur's strengths are an easy tank, efficient use of RF ammo, and looting/salvaging.

The Sleip and Loki are "useless" for level 4s due to a lack of range.


Thank you. That's excactly the sort of answer I was looking for.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-10-21 00:09:03 UTC
Forget the Loki, although it is quick to fly, it's short DPS is too short and too low

Sleip is much the same

The Vargur would be best since you have marauder 5. Even with meta 4 ACs it's tank would be a beast in Angel missions.

The Mach would also be good except for one thing: Angel ships like their webbers.

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Orlacc
#5 - 2011-10-21 00:24:10 UTC
Mach is the Angel Killer.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-10-21 02:01:24 UTC
Actually while Mach and Varg are good for pure bountys/salvage don't throw out the Sleip. It can blitz missions like a knife through hot butter and can tank entire rooms of agro. It's really great for LPing plus it's a awesome pvp ship and looks pretty cool while the Varg isn't used in pvp and the Mach is quite expensive for pvp and looks ugly
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Goose99
#7 - 2011-10-21 02:21:37 UTC
1-Up Mushroom wrote:
Actually while Mach and Varg are good for pure bountys/salvage don't throw out the Sleip. It can blitz missions like a knife through hot butter and can tank entire rooms of agro. It's really great for LPing plus it's a awesome pvp ship and looks pretty cool while the Varg isn't used in pvp and the Mach is quite expensive for pvp and looks ugly


Slipenir won't come close to Mach, blitz or clear.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-10-21 02:39:58 UTC
1-Up Mushroom wrote:
Actually while Mach and Varg are good for pure bountys/salvage don't throw out the Sleip.


True that

Quote:
It can blitz missions like a knife through hot butter and can tank entire rooms of agro.


Can be true, but have to be pretty exact in fitting

Quote:
It's really great for LPing plus it's a awesome pvp ship and looks pretty cool while the Varg isn't used in pvp


Very true

Quote:
and the Mach is quite expensive for pvp


Ahh it's coming down in price, 650m or so for a BPC

Quote:
and looks ugly


Get Out.

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Tash'k Omar
Indefinite Mass
#9 - 2011-10-21 03:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tash'k Omar
stoicfaux wrote:
Mach is the faster/easier to get into and is arguably the "best" choice. The Mach's major advantage over the Vargur is speed, where speed is used to reduce DPS loss due to falloff. The Vargur's strengths are an easy tank, efficient use of RF ammo, and looting/salvaging.

The Sleip and Loki are "useless" for level 4s due to a lack of range.


This. Also, a competently fit Mach will get you into Incursion fleets MUCH faster than any command ship, and those fleets will be better ones.

Command ships aren't preferred for incursions unless you plan on sitting offgrid giving boosts and not getting paid.

And like someone else said: Mach is the angel killer.

Edit: Tbh Sleips with a web bonus link aren't bad, but I prefer a Loki in my fleet. (For incursions)
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#10 - 2011-10-21 05:05:22 UTC
Tash'k Omar wrote:
[quote=stoicfaux]This. Also, a competently fit Mach will get you into Incursion fleets MUCH faster than any command ship, and those fleets will be better ones.

Command ships aren't preferred for incursions unless you plan on sitting offgrid giving boosts and not getting paid.


That all depends, man. NCO fleets really like medium gunned ships. Even a fleet of plain old hurricanes will easily tear a battleship fleet a new vagina when shooting at frigs, and the sleip is just that much more awesome.

thhief ghabmoef
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#11 - 2011-10-21 12:21:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Fille Balle
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Tash'k Omar wrote:
[quote=stoicfaux]This. Also, a competently fit Mach will get you into Incursion fleets MUCH faster than any command ship, and those fleets will be better ones.

Command ships aren't preferred for incursions unless you plan on sitting offgrid giving boosts and not getting paid.


That all depends, man. NCO fleets really like medium gunned ships. Even a fleet of plain old hurricanes will easily tear a battleship fleet a new vagina when shooting at frigs, and the sleip is just that much more awesome.


Well, going a bit off topic here, but I'm farily confident a fleet would welcome an Amarr or Caldari Command ship. I'm already trained for those, so all I really need are the leadership skils.

The whole point in asking is because I'm already trained for command ships, apart from the actual command bit P so it would probably take less time to train for a Sleipnir. I had absolutely no intention of taking a Sleipnir along for incursions.

From what I've read so far I think the Mach is the way forward. Mach is a truly awesome ship, and since my Gallente BS skill is already at V there's only minny BS and projectiles to train. It didn't actually occur to me that Vargur and Mach would be the same amount of training time for me Lol

Since the mach is faster and I can actually get in to one faster, I feel that's the optimal choice, since I'm mainly interested in killing everything in missions. I only blitz a few missions, and it's ussually because they're not worth the time it takes to do them.

I thought maybe the Loki or the Sleipnir could make up for lost dps with speed, but I can see now that it hardly makes any difference when compared to the Mach.

Edit: almost forgot. Thank you everyone for all that input. I now feel I can make an educated choice and I feel confident I'm making the right choice.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#12 - 2011-10-21 15:45:00 UTC
Fille Balle wrote:
Hello guys.
...

Definetly not Loki/Sleipnir.

Choose between Mach and Vargur. They are relatively equal for lvl4's. Any of these two will wtfpwn angel rats.

IMHO Vargur is a bit better for lvl4's coz of its tracking and tank, but Mach speed is nice too. Also it looks damn cool Cool
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#13 - 2011-10-21 16:05:13 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Mach is the faster/easier to get into and is arguably the "best" choice. The Mach's major advantage over the Vargur is speed, where speed is used to reduce DPS loss due to falloff. The Vargur's strengths are an easy tank, efficient use of RF ammo, and looting/salvaging.


I've said it elsewhere as well, but it bears repeating: in addition to all that, the Mach is actually fun to fly. Never thought I'd be a fan until I tried it but now I have trouble walking away from it.

stoicfaux wrote:
The Sleip and Loki are "useless" for level 4s due to a lack of range.


In my "other" mission hub I do keep a Sleip around. It's actually really nice on specific missions (eats mercs alive, handles Angel missions quite well except that they so often start at range, but once a tight ball is established all is well). It isn't as effective as a Mach -- not by a long shot -- but it's not the worst mission ship out there. If cost (or training time, but that's pretty niche given that CSs aren't exactly a cakewalk to get into) is an issue it's worth a shot.
Goose99
#14 - 2011-10-21 16:15:37 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Mach is the faster/easier to get into and is arguably the "best" choice. The Mach's major advantage over the Vargur is speed, where speed is used to reduce DPS loss due to falloff. The Vargur's strengths are an easy tank, efficient use of RF ammo, and looting/salvaging.


I've said it elsewhere as well, but it bears repeating: in addition to all that, the Mach is actually fun to fly. Never thought I'd be a fan until I tried it but now I have trouble walking away from it.

stoicfaux wrote:
The Sleip and Loki are "useless" for level 4s due to a lack of range.


In my "other" mission hub I do keep a Sleip around. It's actually really nice on specific missions (eats mercs alive, handles Angel missions quite well except that they so often start at range, but once a tight ball is established all is well). It isn't as effective as a Mach -- not by a long shot -- but it's not the worst mission ship out there. If cost (or training time, but that's pretty niche given that CSs aren't exactly a cakewalk to get into) is an issue it's worth a shot.


It's definitely worse than Mach by a long shot on typical missions. There are actually a few where Slipneir would be better though, like Buzzkill.

Mach also has one more slot than Vargur. It's questionable whether Vargur's shield boost bonus, based on Marauder skill, not BS, actually gives it more tank than an extra slot that can be used for shield amp, or anything else. Especially considering the marauder has sig 1/3 larger than Mach, while being slower for dmg mitigation. All faction/pirate BS has one more of either mid/low slot, while having base sig of tier1/2 BS.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#15 - 2011-10-21 16:23:38 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
It's definitely worse than Mach by a long shot on typical missions. There are actually a few where Slipneir would be better though, like Buzzkill.


Ironically, Buzz Kill is much better done in a Mach simply by kiting. Sleip is surprisingly not that great at it despite the smaller guns. And yes, I've run with both, multiple times. Mach always wins on that one.

Actually, I can't think of a single mission where I'd actively prefer to have a Sleipnir than a Machariel. And I'm a big Sleipnir fan. I'll still insist that a Sleip is a valid competitor to a Maelstrom -- at that point it depends on the mission -- but the Mach wipes the floor with either.

(And no, I haven't flown a Vargur. I've been sitting on Marauders 5 for almost a year but haven't found the occasion to give it a go.)