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Bring Big Ships Back To Small Scale / Solo: Remove Bonus Restrictions
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L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-11-21 08:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: L4ST
Hi there,

all we see in Smallscale and Solo PvP are small ships, there's very few uses for Battlecruiser and Battleship size. All we see of those are occasional hotdrops, suicide ganks and on very very few occasions some low-to-null-gate-aggression-f*ckery.

Yesterday I did some testing with a Vindicator vs Enyo. With 1 web, 70% resists and an X-Large Deadspace Booster the Vindicator loses against the Enyo in 500m Orbit as the web is not enough as long as the Vindi isn't filled with small drones to launch wave after wave.

For quite some while now I have thought about this:

Why not remove the Turret/Launcher size restriction on bonuses?

This would result in weird dualfits for Battleships or even Anti-Small-Ships-Configurations.
For the Maelstrom this would for example mean "+5% Large Projectile Turret rate of fire" is changed to "+5% Projectile Turret rate of fire"

Still, Battleships are huge and slow, plus WAY more expensive than the small stuff. The BS' tracking disadvantage is lowered by a lot, but definitely not gone. Still the small ships can crash gates and warp before lock.
Now the only problem I thought of here was insta-locking badass Frig to Cruiser one-shotting Maelstroms and stuff. But now mind this: http://i.imgur.com/3MfOl.jpg - 5 SigAmps, 6 ScanRes SeBos and full ScanRes Rigs results in 466mm ScanRes = 13,2 seconds lock time on Frigs with "All V".
A naked Rifter's align time for example are 3,2 Sec (4,7 with Evasive Maneuvering 0 & Spaceship Command 0).

Yout could multi-targetpaint that Rifter and it'd still not get instalocked or something.

And it's not like Battleships are that much tanked that they wouldn't die versus smaller ships of the same cost.



They wouldn't be on top of the "want to fly" list, but Battleships would maybe be seen in solo/smallscale again.




Comments?





____

*ring* *ring*
"Yes General, this is your Supercarrier at the coast of Casablanca... yes ... no, no, we can't move, there's a motorboat out there... yes, Sir, no we can't shoot them, we didn't bring small guns ... why? uhm, because this ship isn't designed to... ... no, Sir, we can't "just move on", it's got us leashed ... ... yes, Sir, either you send us at least 2 Motorboats or were damned to starve here."
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-11-21 09:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
fit a scram and web. Enyo aint gonna have transversal now.

If a enyo has a mwd he will only go 30m/s, if he has an afterburner it will be only 90m/s. In the case of the afterburner all you have to do is move in a straight line and even if you are webbed his transversal will be gone. Also use caldari navy antimatter, void sucks for things that are small.

Getting bonuses to small guns though has serious implications. If I fit medium guns instead of larges on my battleship the amount of tank I could fit would be, well ungodly, the dps wouldn't be half bad either on such a beast. Such a ship would be an unbreakable rock. Triple ASB maelstrom anyone?

Not to mention most battleships can easily fit anti frigate measures. A medium neut combined with a small neut will comepletly shut off the capacitor of any frigate. Double webs will stop ships with the power of a vindicator, small drones and even sometimes mediums will eat frigs alive. A simple prop mod may often times get you enough transversal to instapop a frigate with a battleship. Also its going to take the frigate a very very very very very very long time to kill you. Long enough for say your friends to arrive, or perhaps that frigate needs to not die to fulfill his fleet roll as, what do you call it a... tackler?

Also in eve you have to remember size =/= better. A battleship isnt supposed to be the end all be all. It has its drawbacks like any other ship class and those factors must be taken into account when fielding them. In a solo situation a frigate is supposed to easily escape a battleship. Proper teamwork is required among players flying all shapes and sizes of ships for you to be able to counter anything.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-11-21 12:24:33 UTC
please do not refer to that one single example I gave. I am not complaining about how my shiny ship didn't blow up an Enyo (it wasn't a real fight anyway). I appreciate the effort, but I don't need guides how to kill an Enyo with a Vindicator.

It's about the idea in general.

"Also in eve you have to remember size =/= better."
No. Less Size = Better in EVE. Thats exactly why I propose this.

The same with this "Fleet" thing. A small ship currently can be Tackler, Webber and DPS at the same time. Especially this multi-talentedness should come at higher cost in ISK and size => BC/BS

EVE is absolutely overdoing this "a small ship can do things too" imo, making larger ships less valuable (even large Fleets tend to go AHAC/T3BC). I can't imagine a situation where you have 1-5 ships in fleet looking for PvP and one of them being a T1 BS would be appropriate. If you shout "bait" now => *facepalm*
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-11-21 12:31:20 UTC
L4ST wrote:
please do not refer to that one single example I gave. I am not complaining about how my shiny ship didn't blow up an Enyo (it wasn't a real fight anyway). I appreciate the effort, but I don't need guides how to kill an Enyo with a Vindicator.

It's about the idea in general.

"Also in eve you have to remember size =/= better."
No. Less Size = Better in EVE. Thats exactly why I propose this.

The same with this "Fleet" thing. A small ship currently can be Tackler, Webber and DPS at the same time. Especially this multi-talentedness should come at higher cost in ISK and size => BC/BS

EVE is absolutely overdoing this "a small ship can do things too" imo, making larger ships less valuable (even large Fleets tend to go AHAC/T3BC). I can't imagine a situation where you have 1-5 ships in fleet looking for PvP and one of them being a T1 BS would be appropriate. If you shout "bait" now => *facepalm*



will this also translate to msissle or do missle get the olde shaft stick again ?
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#5 - 2012-11-21 12:35:35 UTC
No, battleships are meant to be just that - hard-hitting slower boats with certain difficulties against smaller craft. The thing is, battleships are NOT hard-hitting vessels nowadays while they DO have all the drawbacks.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-11-21 15:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: L4ST
well I'd not so much stress the fact that they aren't hard hitting, but more that "certain difficulties against smaller craft" is more like "completely incapable against smaller craft" - except if you count in small vessels sitting at 30 kilometres at 0 speed or something like a dualweb special-fit vindicator (1,5+ b ISK vs small vessels of ~50m ISK) in some never-happens-on-Tranquility positioning scenario.

I'd LOVE to take out a 500 mil BS in small scale / solo pvp, burn the ISK. But out of 100 tries vs ships/fleets of the same ISK value I'll get about 100 losses and 0 kills

IMO a balanced EVE = a capable Pilot should be able to accomplish double the success rate with a ship of double the ISK cost. This is about true regarding smaller vessels, but stops as soon as you get to BC size and above.

In 1v1 there is no problem with a 5% Chance for some random T2 Frig to beat a BS, and a 50% chance for a T2 Frig fit especially to take on big targets (remember the cost difference?). Currently we're at what? 50% Chance of not breaking the tank and warping off/waiting for support and 50% Chance that the T2 Frig kills the BS?



serras bang wrote:
will this also translate to msissle or do missle get the olde shaft stick again ?


tbh I'm not too much of a missile Pilot, but missile ships are currently the only ones being able to damage Frigates, aren't they? They won't be able to kill a Frig with large missile size but at least drive it off afaik. Anyway Missiles are being rebalanced, so I wouldn't dare to comment that right now.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#7 - 2012-11-21 15:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Commander Ted wrote:
fit a scram and web. Enyo aint gonna have transversal now.


Enyo with an ab can easily speed tank medium guns even while being webbed, and minimally nueted (small nos ftw). Double webs or 90% webs will cause a bit of an issue though.

Against a vindi with 90% webs an ab enyo will easily have the overall speed advantage so long as it fits a scram and web of it's own (duh) and will still be able to easily speed tank the vindi so long as the enyo manually orbits at sub 500m.
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-11-21 16:03:54 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
fit a scram and web. Enyo aint gonna have transversal now.


Enyo with an ab can easily speed tank medium guns even while being webbed, and minimally nueted (small nos ftw). Double webs or 90% webs will cause a bit of an issue though.

Against a vindi with 90% webs an ab enyo will easily have the overall speed advantage so long as it fits a scram and web of it's own (duh) and will still be able to easily speed tank the vindi so long as the enyo manually orbits at sub 500m.



Enyo with an afterburner (900-1000ms) is also slower than most battlecruisers with microwarpdrive. Even some plated battleships (Megathron) Have comparable speeds. If bads let afterburner enyo get under their guns then yay for enyo.

Speed/agility is the reason smaller ships are more common in solo small gang pvp simply because of the ability to pick your fights. Bigger ships do not have this quality. It has nothing to do with tracking, ship size or any other random point the OP has.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
L4ST
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-11-21 16:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: L4ST
what an illogical post lol

Small ships can choose what they fight because they can take on everything. Further, they almost always have a good chance to get out of even the worst surprises at gates and bubbles. Large ships can't get out of those suprises, can't kill smaller (not even "smallest") ships and are pretty much dead as soon as they're undocked.

So targeting one of those reasons, the ability to kill smaller ships, is surely just a completely random point, not the most logical one - as a) going for any other reason would not match the BS role, b) it wouldn't affect any other aspects of the game (large fleets, PvE, ...) without great cost and c) would anyone think of a naval Battleship or sth alike without any small weaponry?

Small ships aren't just "common", going for small ships is a necessity to achieve anything.


So I guess you just wanted to get some Troll/hate therapy here. Ok. Now bugger off or contribute.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-11-21 20:44:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
L4ST wrote:
what an illogical post lol

Small ships can choose what they fight because they can take on everything. Further, they almost always have a good chance to get out of even the worst surprises at gates and bubbles. Large ships can't get out of those suprises, can't kill smaller (not even "smallest") ships and are pretty much dead as soon as they're undocked.

So targeting one of those reasons, the ability to kill smaller ships, is surely just a completely random point, not the most logical one - as a) going for any other reason would not match the BS role, b) it wouldn't affect any other aspects of the game (large fleets, PvE, ...) without great cost and c) would anyone think of a naval Battleship or sth alike without any small weaponry?

Small ships aren't just "common", going for small ships is a necessity to achieve anything.


So I guess you just wanted to get some Troll/hate therapy here. Ok. Now bugger off or contribute.


Get a scout, now your large ship won't be caught. Fit a neut, small ship is gonna be ****** without a nos and even then will have problems. Fit lights it will be in trouble if its a light tackle, especially if its guns use cap and their are neuts. An enyo is not going to to 1500 dps like a battleship, an enyo doesn't have the ehp that a battleship does have, and a battleship that is active tanked should be able to tank it forever without cap boosters. Also battleships often DO have small weapons, depending on the situation I am going into I will often bring a set of lights and 4 ogres instead of 5 ogres.

Giving battleships extra tracking would be... awful. It's their drawback, they hit harder than any other subcap, and being able to easily apply that damage easily would break the game. If you fly a battleship its very easy to consider a number of anti frigate measures anyway: Light drones, Neuts, Double webs, scramblers, instapopping them on the approach if they are not careful, Target painters (kinda), tanking them forever and having a friend, being fairly fast with a single web/scram.

Also once again about the enyo example, webbed vindi goes 57.2m/s, vindi webbed AB enyo goes 90 m/s, you aint gonna have transversal versus a vindi, especially since it gets tracking bonuses.Lord have mercy on your soul if its a double web. Also how does the enyo get under 500 m orbit in a real fight anyway versus a vindi?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2012-11-22 01:26:02 UTC
frigs are a favourite for solo and small gang cause they have quick align times for gtfo-ability and evading gate camps.

big fat battleships are meant to have a hard time hitting smaller targets, but have the advantage of massive tanks so u can call for back up if u get tackled by a lone frig. they also have drones for occupying smaller targets until u can call said back up.

if u want more tracking, swap out mag stabs for tracking enhancers. or put tracking comps in ur mids

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#12 - 2012-11-22 16:31:18 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
fit a scram and web. Enyo aint gonna have transversal now.

If a enyo has a mwd he will only go 30m/s, if he has an afterburner it will be only 90m/s. In the case of the afterburner all you have to do is move in a straight line and even if you are webbed his transversal will be gone. Also use caldari navy antimatter, void sucks for things that are small.

Getting bonuses to small guns though has serious implications. If I fit medium guns instead of larges on my battleship the amount of tank I could fit would be, well ungodly, the dps wouldn't be half bad either on such a beast. Such a ship would be an unbreakable rock. Triple ASB maelstrom anyone?

Not to mention most battleships can easily fit anti frigate measures. A medium neut combined with a small neut will comepletly shut off the capacitor of any frigate. Double webs will stop ships with the power of a vindicator, small drones and even sometimes mediums will eat frigs alive. A simple prop mod may often times get you enough transversal to instapop a frigate with a battleship. Also its going to take the frigate a very very very very very very long time to kill you. Long enough for say your friends to arrive, or perhaps that frigate needs to not die to fulfill his fleet roll as, what do you call it a... tackler?

Also in eve you have to remember size =/= better. A battleship isnt supposed to be the end all be all. It has its drawbacks like any other ship class and those factors must be taken into account when fielding them. In a solo situation a frigate is supposed to easily escape a battleship. Proper teamwork is required among players flying all shapes and sizes of ships for you to be able to counter anything.

agreed, there are many ways to deal with frigs when you are in a BS, neut, drones (web / neut drones can be really effective too), web, smartbombs.....

so many ways to get rid of the annoying mosquitos...Twisted
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#13 - 2012-11-26 09:46:04 UTC
L4ST wrote:

Still, Battleships are huge and slow, plus WAY more expensive than the small stuff. The BS' tracking disadvantage is lowered by a lot, but definitely not gone. Still the small ships can crash gates and warp before lock.
Now the only problem I thought of here was insta-locking badass Frig to Cruiser one-shotting Maelstroms and stuff. But now mind this: http://i.imgur.com/3MfOl.jpg - 5 SigAmps, 6 ScanRes SeBos and full ScanRes Rigs results in 466mm ScanRes = 13,2 seconds lock time on Frigs with "All V".
A naked Rifter's align time for example are 3,2 Sec (4,7 with Evasive Maneuvering 0 & Spaceship Command 0).

Yout could multi-targetpaint that Rifter and it'd still not get instalocked or something.

And it's not like Battleships are that much tanked that they wouldn't die versus smaller ships of the same cost.


Maybe I would take this post more seriously if: first of all Battleships weren't getting revamped in spring or something like that as part of tiericide; and second of all you didn't mix up align time and locking time. Seriously, that 13.2 seconds is align time. Right click the scan res, and set it to frigate. That should give you something like 4.5s. Still not fast enough, but much faster than your mistaken time. However that is plenty quick at targeting cruisers at 2.7 seconds. Also, stacking penalties. 5 SeBo's, tops.