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PLEX
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Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#21 - 2012-11-21 07:53:08 UTC
So, I know that directly PLEX isn't an isk faucet, but indirectly could it be so?

Let's say PLEX goes up 100 mil. Many people rely on lvl 4s and other isk faucets to make their money in Eve online. So now PLEX is 100 mil more expensive, how do you think these people will buy they're PLEX? One would assume they will run more missions and print more money.

So, it's quite possible that when plex spikes in price, it creates indirect inflation in the economy. If this holds true, theoretically PLEX should never decrease in price much if at all (I'm talking averages here, not daily highs or lows), regardless of what increased the price in PLEX in teh first place such as high demand for FW, speculation or market manipulation.

Just my thoughts.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#22 - 2012-11-21 08:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
corestwo wrote:

Yes of course. The current and wildly outlandish isk/hr you can get in highsec is, because it's currently how it is, how it always should be, and so we should seek to keep it in place even while reducing mineral prices.


- Incursions are nerfed enough that these days it's normal to pass through an incursion site for a week with nobody taking it.

- L4 missions have been nerfed enough that now they yield about 1/3 of what they did 2 years ago.

- Hi sec mining is relatively more profitable "per effort spent" than the above. Hi sec mining is not an ISK faucet though and is still a fraction of what you get farming nullsec anoms (maybe in a capital ship => that should be nerfed).

Even then, I just tried hi sec minerals mining (scordite, plagioclase and trit) with 3 Macks yields about 200M per *day* (of 10+ hours) not per *hour*, with Orca buffs of course.

The only mis-balance I can see ATM is caused by drone regions being turned to an ISK faucet, which turned the balance tables from excess of minerals supply to excess of ISK.

Drone regions, unlike hi sec, can be rat botted with complete impunity and no "-geddon" hits them.

Now, the mis-balance might even be a planned feature: most players don't even know what a faucet is, they just see "600M per money" and CCP earns more.

An high ISK game also means, botting revenue rises but its business loses terrain vs other ways (expecially just buying the PLEX).
An high ISK game also means, subbing more miner accounts (the only kind that can be easily "stacked" by individuals) => more CCP income.

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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-11-21 08:15:39 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Vaal Erit wrote:
Well this is awkward. CCP blamed FW for the rapid rise of PLEX and it has been 2 weeks and counting since the FW nerf and PLEX has been going up in price. Oops.

What will CCP blame it on next, Incursions again? Or maybe missions and afk mack ice mining are the culprit? Does CCP have the balls to go ahead with a 10% pay cut in all bounties? 700m per plex by years end?


CCP did not nerf FW because it caused inflation but because it was a monkey mode to get humongous amounts of ISK.
Mining does not compare


I didn't say inflation and talking about inflation in EVE is pretty hilarious. All I'm talking about is PLEX price and yes I totally agree with you that gaining lp in FW was too crazy easy before and needed a nerf.

Here is what CCP said "We believe getting these changes out early will go a long way towards shaking up and reviving the FW warzones while also reducing pressure on the economy (most notably the price of PLEX). We will keep observing the impact from all of these changes and will keep tweaking as needed to get the best results possible."

Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason.

I think it is an awkward situation, either CCP is incompetent in economic matters or they are purposely helping certain militias
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#24 - 2012-11-21 08:22:28 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:

Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason.



Perhaps the goal of nerfing FW was only to prevent PLEX from rising more?

I dont think it was ever stated that the nerf was meant to specifically lower PLEX prices.

In the past 2 weeks or so minerals and salvage have both inflated at around 10%. Surely it's not to be expected that plex will drop when inflation occurs no? I'm fairly certain PLEX prices have been relatively stable since the nerf, aside from a small rise today of about 2.5% (590 to 605)
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#25 - 2012-11-21 10:39:53 UTC
Plex is like EVE Gold.

Everything in EVE is either over priced or useless. Market players know they aren't supposed to keep their ISK liquid and they put it in Plex because nothing else is safe.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Block Ukx
420 Enterprises.
#26 - 2012-11-21 13:03:23 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
... I personally think that at over 600 million now, is far too high.



The market does not care what you think is too high.



TriadSte wrote:
... and enlighten myself a mere market amateur as to what's driving the sales of these things.



Buyers do not care what you think is too high.
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#27 - 2012-11-21 14:43:59 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Kills like that are hilarious, but irrelevant. They're too rare to have a meaningful impact on prices at all.
I beg to differ. But then I speculatively trade and haul PLEX, so my perspective on the matter is different to someone who doesn't trade PLEX at all. The hundreds of PLEX bought for the alliance tournament impacted the market even if only psychologically: traders raised the prices in anticipation of huge demand. The prices of PLEX start falling the moment the special PLEX offers show up on the login screen ads. I am eternally thankful tht the people selling PLEX are keen to get a cash injection as quickly as possible. I am eternally grateful that the people scraping ISK together from month to month aren't willing to post a buy order. Because of the hand-to-mouth mentality of PLEX sellers and account PLEXers, speculators such as myself are guaranteed to make a profit by buying low, selling high. Thus the PLEXers are always buying from speculators' sell orders, the PLEX sellers are always selling to buy orders. The moment the PLEXers start getting wise and posting buy orders a day or two before their accounts are due, the moment PLEX sellers start posting sell orders and waiting ENTIRE HOURS for the PLEX to sell, the speculating game is over. But while there are people hauling dozens of PLEX in industrials (or taking their PLEX to market in ships flown by faction warfare characters, through FW systems) I know my ISK is safe in the PLEX Market. I'm flying my hauler full of PLEX around, humming Sweet Home Alabama, praying to Barnum and Murphy.


Why would anyone HAUL a plex?

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Bifordus Maximus
MissoCorp
#28 - 2012-11-21 15:20:04 UTC
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Why would anyone HAUL a plex?


I thought about this myself. You could just contract it to who it needs to go to and they can accept it and use it without leaving their side of the galaxy with a small cost of 10,000 ISK If your doing it for your corp. That becomes tiresome when dealing with many people though. Of course it just comes to ease of use. Its easier to just give it to a person. But unfortunately a fraction of those people don't use logistics or common sense when traveling. Ugh
Demolishar
United Aggression
#29 - 2012-11-21 15:23:00 UTC
I would love to know the total quantity of stockpiled PLEX in EVE. That's the main unknown here and has such a huge effect on what the future will hold.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#30 - 2012-11-21 15:45:49 UTC
Demolishar wrote:
I would love to know the total quantity of stockpiled PLEX in EVE. That's the main unknown here and has such a huge effect on what the future will hold.


I've often wondered if CCP had the wisdom to take PLEX money and put it in an 'ingame payroll account'. Treating each Plex like a written cheque and not pulling the money until the PLEX was cashed?

In game, I have watched PLEX in the Forge for years and there has never been more than a thousand at any time. If there was a massive stash I think they would have made it to the market by now. Even if they didn't sell there should have been periods with huge Plex infusions.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-11-21 15:56:38 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
I would love to know the total quantity of stockpiled PLEX in EVE. That's the main unknown here and has such a huge effect on what the future will hold.


I've often wondered if CCP had the wisdom to take PLEX money and put it in an 'ingame payroll account'. Treating each Plex like a written cheque and not pulling the money until the PLEX was cashed?

at least not in their public accounting.

.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#32 - 2012-11-21 16:30:45 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Vaal Erit wrote:
Well this is awkward. CCP blamed FW for the rapid rise of PLEX and it has been 2 weeks and counting since the FW nerf and PLEX has been going up in price. Oops.

What will CCP blame it on next, Incursions again? Or maybe missions and afk mack ice mining are the culprit? Does CCP have the balls to go ahead with a 10% pay cut in all bounties? 700m per plex by years end?


CCP did not nerf FW because it caused inflation but because it was a monkey mode to get humongous amounts of ISK.
Mining does not compare


I didn't say inflation and talking about inflation in EVE is pretty hilarious. All I'm talking about is PLEX price and yes I totally agree with you that gaining lp in FW was too crazy easy before and needed a nerf.

Here is what CCP said "We believe getting these changes out early will go a long way towards shaking up and reviving the FW warzones while also reducing pressure on the economy (most notably the price of PLEX). We will keep observing the impact from all of these changes and will keep tweaking as needed to get the best results possible."

Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason.

I think it is an awkward situation, either CCP is incompetent in economic matters or they are purposely helping certain militias


Or, FW was just the most obvious thing driving their rise in prices or the thing driving the rise in prices the most quickly, and perhaps there are other things that also drive the rise in prices, just not quite as fast? Shocked

Nah, clearly a conspiracy to favor one side of a minigame played by a tiny portion of the population.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Harbingour
EVE Corporation 690846961
#33 - 2012-11-21 19:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Harbingour
corestwo wrote:

Harbingour wrote:

It'd be tuff to blame Incursions. I'm willing to bet INCURSIONS per month ISK faucet fell 70-85% TO BETWEEN 1.1 & 2.2 TRILLION ISK PER MONTH.

I sure hope that you mean the faucet only from incursions and not the total faucet here. Because if you mean the total faucet, then uh...lets just say you're wrong. Very, very wrong.


FIXED. I do agree/think that the addition of drone bounties increased the TOTAL ISK faucets (possibly significantly) and bounties are far larger a percentage of the faucets now. I am very cursious if post Escalation Incursion nerf if WH blue loots increased from ~10 trillion to more then 12 trillion with the abandonment of Incrusions farmers migrating mostly to FW or WH?
I miss CCP Diagoras Cry
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-11-21 19:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Fractal Muse
Vaal Erit wrote:

Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason.

I think it is an awkward situation, either CCP is incompetent in economic matters or they are purposely helping certain militias

I don't understand.

PLEX prices don't drop from what price point?

They were averaging 650 million mid-October. Today, there are plenty available at 600 million or less.

If I check out PLEX prices right now I find them going from 590 million, between 591 million and 599 million (24 sell orders that I can see), and 600 million (15 sell orders).

Perhaps if you included your start point for when you began tracking PLEX prices?
Ariel Dawn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-11-21 20:03:28 UTC
PLEX prices are going up due to inflation. 30 day GTCs used to cost 110m, PLEX initially cost ~250m and you'll see PLEX hit 1b at some point in the future.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#36 - 2012-11-21 20:50:15 UTC
Harbingour wrote:
corestwo wrote:

Harbingour wrote:

It'd be tuff to blame Incursions. I'm willing to bet INCURSIONS per month ISK faucet fell 70-85% TO BETWEEN 1.1 & 2.2 TRILLION ISK PER MONTH.

I sure hope that you mean the faucet only from incursions and not the total faucet here. Because if you mean the total faucet, then uh...lets just say you're wrong. Very, very wrong.


FIXED. I do agree/think that the addition of drone bounties increased the TOTAL ISK faucets (possibly significantly) and bounties are far larger a percentage of the faucets now. I am very cursious if post Escalation Incursion nerf if WH blue loots increased from ~10 trillion to more then 12 trillion with the abandonment of Incrusions farmers migrating mostly to FW or WH?
I miss CCP Diagoras Cry


WH blue loots weren't ~10T. The total of everything NPCs bought was ~10T. WH loot was in the 6-7T range. Incursions were about 8-9. And the total for bounties was in the 32T range. There's no firm way to break that up by region or security status, but given that the top ranked Empire regions had ~10x the NPC kills as the top ranked nullsec regions, it's probably safe to say that the drone regions were not that large of an increase in the bounties faucet.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Harbingour
EVE Corporation 690846961
#37 - 2012-11-22 08:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Harbingour
corestwo wrote:

Incursions were about 8-9.
.


Incursions topped out in December according to CCP Diagoras over the10 trillion mark

corestwo wrote:

WH blue loots weren't ~10T. The total of everything NPCs bought was ~10T. WH loot was in the 6-7T range.


not according to this: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
March( and Janurary) even though it was a longer month saw less blue loot ISK fauceting but I recall Diagoras saying it popped up again in May
again I bet that WH's after the Escalation nerf saw an influx of pilots & the ISK faucet there increased with them

corestwo wrote:

it's probably safe to say that the drone regions were not that large of an increase in the bounties faucet.


It was not just the Drone regions that saw the drone bounty increase though HI SEC had quite afew drone missions I recall from my earliest days.
I don't think it is safe to say anything & we are in a economy ino blackout right nowIMHO
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#38 - 2012-11-22 13:55:43 UTC
corestwo wrote:

WH blue loots weren't ~10T. The total of everything NPCs bought was ~10T. WH loot was in the 6-7T range. Incursions were about 8-9. And the total for bounties was in the 32T range. There's no firm way to break that up by region or security status, but given that the top ranked Empire regions had ~10x the NPC kills as the top ranked nullsec regions, it's probably safe to say that the drone regions were not that large of an increase in the bounties faucet.


All it takes is a 10% ISK faucets increase to cause a mis-balance.
Also, drone regions (as said above) is not the only "drone content".
When I missioned I recall those quite stupid drone missions were 20%-30% of the whole kind of missions offered (varies by agent). Given the huge amount of hi sec missions are farmed, it quickly creates another large ISK faucet.

Imo they should revert the drone changes and just increase the BPOs minerals requirements.

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Malecite
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-11-22 14:43:47 UTC
too many character resellers
Demolishar
United Aggression
#40 - 2012-11-22 17:21:59 UTC
Malecite wrote:
too many character resellers


Don't think it's a big deal to be honest. There are too many (I am one of them), but I believe the character bazaar is in recession . Buyers won't pay enough because they are tight on isk due to price of PLEX to fund their accounts, sellers won't accept low offers due to extreme transfer fee. So very few characters are actually moving.