EVE General Discussion

Well, it looks like speed tanking in combination with sentries doesn't make sense (anymore) if drones are the only damage you want to apply. You must adapt here.

How often the AI will change the NPC targeting will pretty much depend on how often the damage source changes.

I bet those changes address the AFK plexers ...

From what i experienced on the test server you can kiss your lights goodbye as soon as you launch them. Sentries may get some aggro and mediums and heavies will be ignored.

Thank you.

This is intriguing. I was under the impression that the aggro changed based on dps, not drone type.

If heavies and sentries largly get ignored then perhaps I just need to figure out a new way of quickly dealing with scrambling rat frigs.

Oh I'm all up in this discussion lol.

For a quick(ish) recap of what I think: I wholeheartedly support the GOAL of the changes is more interesting/engaging PVE, PVE closer to PVP (as was started with incursions and wormholes) ect ect.

But the way they are going about it is really, really wrong. They are starting with changing AI behavior 1st, then "later on" they will change the actual content (missions, anomalies and complexes) to have fewer NPCs with high bounties (as opposed to how they made incursions and wormhole sites "from whole cloth" ie they created the sites and mechanics of the affect space to work with the smart incursion and wormhole NPCs).

From day one, CCPs solution to missions and plexes that were to easy was to just add more of the "dumb rats", some missions, anomalies and plexes literally have SWARMS of NPCs (like the 20 neuting battleships of the Blood Raider Naval Shipyard 10/10 DED complex) and changing the AI in content not designed for it is going to make some mission and complexes unplayable. Like trying to use a carrier in a lvl 5 will probably be very expensive as Fighters generate a LOT of threat and get primaried by the npcs.

So in these discussions we mentioned out concerns (starting with Fleet Staging Point complexes in null sec) because they fire citadel torpedoes that do 160 THOUSAND points of damage and one of the main DEVs working on this change (CCP FoxFour) admitted not being at all familiar with Fleet Staging points..... Fleet Staging points (9/10 complexes) are super common and it begs the question, if you don't know anything about the content, why are you changing it.

Weeks later CCP modified their plans and decided to NOT upgrade turrets and overseers AI (such as the overseers who fire citadel torps) "until the content could be revised to fit around the new AI". This is what they should be doing with the WHOLE NPC AI change, but that hasn't happened so far.

That's just a part of the pve side of it, the changes also has a bunch of negative effects on pvp and pve-supporting professions like in-mission salvaging and cooperative mission sharing with less skilled players. Read the threads i linked and you'll see a lot of different concerns.

Yep, waiting for December 5 lol.

Interesting stuff, thank you.

On Dec 5th I shall head to a belt and deploy my drones very carefully and then work up from there lol!

Its the same NPC AI as used in W-space. In W-space they switch about every 2 minutes. The odd thing is they MUST switch every 2 minutes if there is something to switch to. They will go from your high DPS boat to a single warrior I doing nothing. Not only that, but if there is only one ship at the site they will remember they need to switch, and do so immediately when something new pops up. The result of all this is in W-space you:


Deploy drones. Wait for them to catch aggro.
Recall them, wait for aggro to go back to you.
Re-deploy, and you got 2 minutes to use them.
Don't wait 2 minutes after recalling them, as then they will get aggro right away.

The AI in K space is not as bad as it is in W, so you may get more time. It was bugged when I tested it on the test server to the point they would only aggro switch once, so Im not sure what it will be like when deployed. However, over a dozen test missions I never lost a drone. Also you can look like a better target to the NPCs by using remote reps. Just by using one RR you can keep your drones alive and keep most aggro off of them.

If you are using a little fleet of say two DPS ships and a logi, the trick will be to fit some logi on the DPS ships, just enough to save the logi ship when it catches aggro. Even RR drones.

AFK with drones has always been problematic. A new wave spawns and you better be there.

But there is still the method of 5 sentries and 5 RR one on each drone. Or just 4 if you got cap issues.

Actually people, the full effect of this disaster won't be felt Dec 4th.
CCP Fox Four has admitted that there is a "defect" in the AI that creates a loophole for drone users.

The reason that Vincent Athena lost no drones in 20 missions is this:

When testing on Duality, it was proven, and confirmed by CCP, that if you release drones they pretty much get insta-aggroed by the whole room. This happened to me on every one of a dozen missions I tested on Duality, using a Ishtar, Vargur, and Navy Domi. However, when the same drones are recalled, (you will lose at least one, my Hobs were being attacked before they even reached their target 6 km away), the AI will completely ignore your drones after that. I mean completely. New spawns of course will insta-aggro your drones.

So after Dec 4th, the new strategy will be to either send out a sentry, get all aggro on it and instantly recall it, or send out a sacrificial T1 light, and once it is popped, send out your T2's.

In Sansha Recon I, first room, I speed tanked an Ishtar. I collected aggro from all 4 spawns, released a flight of drones, which immediately got aggro, recalled them, then re-released them. I then watched them for 5 minutes get no aggro, then went afk for the rest of the mission to write scathing comments about the incompetence of CCP dev's. My Heavies were NEVER targeted in the time I was not touching the mission, well over 20 minutes.

So yeah, drone users will be fine on Dec 5th, just have to change tactics slightly, with a HUGE BUT..........
Sometime AFTER Dec 5th, once CCP has put out all the other fires coming down the pipe Dec 5th, CCP plans on "fixing" this "defect", and then not just the first release of drones will be targeted.

Only THEN will see the utter decimation of drones as a PvE platform.
Fox Four has made some comments about "dialing down" the aggression levels on drones. Remember, this new AI is all predicated on an aggression slider, that CCP supposedly has the ability to alter very easily. Whether they will is another matter. Frankly, ANY aggression changes spell doom for heavy drones and light drones. Sentries can still be used, but with an RR unit.

The complete irony of these changes are the people it was supposedly directed at, the AFK mission runners, will be the ones least affected. People will set up twinned RR Domi;s with a cap transfer between them, target their sentries with RR, and walk away from the keyboard. The AI will go after the Domi as they treat the RR as a higher threat level than the drone damage. (Also discussed in the New features thread).

So bottom line, drone users won't feel much effect Dec 5th, but at some indeterminate date after that, drones are going to just get hammered.

A bleak picture indeed.
I would suggest reading the thread about this mess, but it is 30 pages of tough slogging.

Bottom line, CCP wants to make mission running more PvP-like, and instead of tackling the job in one enormous piece, which would entail huge amounts of testing and tweaking on the test servers, they chose first alter the AI, making mission running so much harder. Of course, if you use zero drones, you won't feel the changes.

But watch the rage when someone's Vargur is scrammed, the Vargur's small drones are instapopped, and the NPC frigs are under the guns, but out of smart bomb range.