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D-SCAN
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Frying Doom
#41 - 2012-11-18 21:16:51 UTC
CCP seems determined to keep the free intel tool, local.

So they could at least update D-scan and allow the overview preferences to be layed on it and make it automatic.

So outlaw ships appear yellow ect.. on the Dscan.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-11-18 22:07:48 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
CCP seems determined to keep the free intel tool, local.


Actually CCP has been openly taking about removing it as an intel tool when they come up with something else to replace it.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-11-18 23:18:07 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
CCP seems determined to keep the free intel tool, local.

So they could at least update D-scan and allow the overview preferences to be layed on it and make it automatic.

So outlaw ships appear yellow ect.. on the Dscan.



Free intell tools that you should take out of the game by all means or that shouldn't by any mean provide you instant free intell:

Dotland
Killboards
Evemoon
Eveboard
In game Character employment history
Grid
Star Map
System Map
Constellation Map
Region Map
Sovereignty Information

Actually anything that provides you the tiniest piece of information you haven't worked you ass for. What's your opinion about these free intell tools then?

brb
j0lssoni
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-11-19 08:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: j0lssoni
Darth Gustav wrote:
Veetor wrote:
Been back coupla months now from a long hiatus.Kudos to CCP for making huge improvements to the game. I am re-learning howto play and have activated several of my accounts. I only have one tiny litle gripe I would like to get off my chest. I have learned over the years to hate spamming d-scan. So much that low sec and null....I just dont go there anymore. I want a real time HUD for that. Then EVE will be perfect.

So don't spam it. Use it "selectively" to avoid feeling like you're spamming.

Passive long-range scanners would dumb Eve down WAY too much in my opinion.

Way too much.


Pressing a button in a MS Excel sheet once every few seconds is not challenging, it's tedious. The difficulty of a game should be dictated by, well, the difficulty of the game, not by how impractical the user interface is.
Frying Doom
#45 - 2012-11-19 08:36:21 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
CCP seems determined to keep the free intel tool, local.


Actually CCP has been openly taking about removing it as an intel tool when they come up with something else to replace it.

There has been a thread in ideas for quite some time now on a different system.

But frankly I cannot see them removing it, especially as they just went to the trouble of making sure it still works with Dust so players can tell how many ship pilots are in system.

Or if they mentioned it, it is probably due to the number of these threads which is now kind of massive, so it will probably get released in 20 years or so.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#46 - 2012-11-19 08:37:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
CCP seems determined to keep the free intel tool, local.

So they could at least update D-scan and allow the overview preferences to be layed on it and make it automatic.

So outlaw ships appear yellow ect.. on the Dscan.



Free intell tools that you should take out of the game by all means or that shouldn't by any mean provide you instant free intell:

Dotland
Killboards
Evemoon
Eveboard
In game Character employment history
Grid
Star Map
System Map
Constellation Map
Region Map
Sovereignty Information

Actually anything that provides you the tiniest piece of information you haven't worked you ass for. What's your opinion about these free intell tools then?

Strangely to find this information on any of these things requires you to do something, they are not passive free intel.

Local requires you do nothing except look at your screen.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Talonikus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-11-19 09:47:23 UTC
It's not so much the hitting of the button, it's the unwieldy list you get. The inability to remove fleet members is... strange.
Frying Doom
#48 - 2012-11-19 09:56:59 UTC
Talonikus wrote:
It's not so much the hitting of the button, it's the unwieldy list you get. The inability to remove fleet members is... strange.

It just requires thinking, rather than just colour recognition

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#49 - 2012-11-19 11:13:23 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Strangely to find this information on any of these things requires you to do something, they are not passive free intel.

Local requires you do nothing except look at your screen.



Last time I checked after I've clicked the "pilots in local space" button once on the star map all I need to do is look at the screen.

Arguments for removing local are boring and rubbish, why are you even bringing it up here when it already has a boring and rubbish thread to discuss it in?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Frying Doom
#50 - 2012-11-19 11:26:28 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Strangely to find this information on any of these things requires you to do something, they are not passive free intel.

Local requires you do nothing except look at your screen.



Last time I checked after I've clicked the "pilots in local space" button once on the star map all I need to do is look at the screen.

Arguments for removing local are boring and rubbish, why are you even bringing it up here when it already has a boring and rubbish thread to discuss it in?

Ok to keep it simple for you then,

Yes they should update D-scan so it meshes with the overview as well.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#51 - 2012-11-19 11:29:46 UTC
Copying a post I made elsewhere:

Val'Dore wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:

You just made a better argument against Local than anyone else has. If D-Scan would have to be buffed that much to be an adequate replacement for Local... then Local is far too powerful. Your own words support my position.


The problem is that your position requires CCP to invest man-hours into a system that currently functions to change. A system that in order to work without you'd need a new one that isn't bugged.

Look how the new inventory worked out.


Well, sort of. The actual Local change is cake easy. But bringing in a better D-Scan is the tricky part. While D-Scan as is isn't terrible, it is not intuitive.

I've suggested before that the old radar coupled with the new... well current D-Scan would work fine. Make the range you can scan out to based on two factors:

Ship Sensor Strength
Scan Aperture Focus

D-Scan would be a manually adjustable, but autonomous ship system. As an example, you could direct the scanner at the only stargate in system, which happens to be 100 AU away. So you tighten the SAF to say, 5 degrees, which yields a much longer scan range than say, 90 degrees. But to reach 100 AU, you might have to use an ECCM to boost the Sensor Strength of the ship.

I suggest something akin to this:

Each point of sensor strength on a given ship is equal to 1 AU base scan range with the scanner set to a 360 degree sphere. So for example, we will use the Raven:

22 Base Gravimetric Sensor Strength = 22 AU base scan range

If we use the current D-Scan focus settings: 360, 180, 90, 60, 30, 15, 5

Scan range increases proportional to the tightness of the focus:

360 = 1x
180 = 1.5x
090 = 2x
060 = 2.25x
030 = 2.75x
015 = 3x
005 = 4x

So a naked Raven with max focus can scan as far as 88 AU

Now a sphere scanner with 22 AU range is probably going to work for most players, so here is the other boot: Scan Resolution and Passive Scanning.

A ship's Scan Resolution will determine at what rate the ship can emit a sensor pulse and what effect on the scan results that pulse will have. For each 100 Scan Resolution your ship will lose 1 second on Scan Pulse activation delay, which has a base of 10 seconds. The cap is 1000 Scan Resolution, more won't help you scan faster.

So with that Raven, which has 106.25 Scan Resolution. The 10 second base pulse is reduced by 1.0625 seconds to 8.9375 Seconds. A Sensor Booster II with Scan Resolution Script would make that: 170 SR and 8.3 seconds.

Now for passive scanning, this is the part that will make things really interesting. Passive Scanning relies entirely on seeing the Scan Pulses from other ships. Your own Scan Range has no effect on whether you can see a ping from another ship. Passive Scanning does not hide you, but it does allow you to let other players reveal themselves for you rather than you going through the effort of actively scanning. You can passive scan any ship that is sending out scan pulses that reveal you to them. This is especially helpful against larger ships that are out of your scan range and would otherwise be undetectable.

Current Probe Mechanics are still required for making a warpable contact. The new Radar/D-Scan is informational only.

As current, the only way to defeat a Scan Pulse entirely is with a Cloaking Device, but unlike now no more probing or scanning while cloaked. Covert Ops cloaks may be an exception.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#52 - 2012-11-19 11:45:11 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok to keep it simple for you then,

Yes they should update D-scan so it meshes with the overview as well.



I have D-scan as a tab in my overview right now.

The only difference is that I can't see both the overview and the d-scan at the same time, but why would i eve need to?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-11-19 12:07:24 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Copying a post I made elsewhere:

Val'Dore wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:

You just made a better argument against Local than anyone else has. If D-Scan would have to be buffed that much to be an adequate replacement for Local... then Local is far too powerful. Your own words support my position.


The problem is that your position requires CCP to invest man-hours into a system that currently functions to change. A system that in order to work without you'd need a new one that isn't bugged.

Look how the new inventory worked out.


Well, sort of. The actual Local change is cake easy. But bringing in a better D-Scan is the tricky part. While D-Scan as is isn't terrible, it is not intuitive.

I've suggested before that the old radar coupled with the new... well current D-Scan would work fine. Make the range you can scan out to based on two factors:

Ship Sensor Strength
Scan Aperture Focus

D-Scan would be a manually adjustable, but autonomous ship system. As an example, you could direct the scanner at the only stargate in system, which happens to be 100 AU away. So you tighten the SAF to say, 5 degrees, which yields a much longer scan range than say, 90 degrees. But to reach 100 AU, you might have to use an ECCM to boost the Sensor Strength of the ship.

I suggest something akin to this:

Each point of sensor strength on a given ship is equal to 1 AU base scan range with the scanner set to a 360 degree sphere. So for example, we will use the Raven:

22 Base Gravimetric Sensor Strength = 22 AU base scan range

If we use the current D-Scan focus settings: 360, 180, 90, 60, 30, 15, 5

Scan range increases proportional to the tightness of the focus:

360 = 1x
180 = 1.5x
090 = 2x
060 = 2.25x
030 = 2.75x
015 = 3x
005 = 4x

So a naked Raven with max focus can scan as far as 88 AU

Now a sphere scanner with 22 AU range is probably going to work for most players, so here is the other boot: Scan Resolution and Passive Scanning.

A ship's Scan Resolution will determine at what rate the ship can emit a sensor pulse and what effect on the scan results that pulse will have. For each 100 Scan Resolution your ship will lose 1 second on Scan Pulse activation delay, which has a base of 10 seconds. The cap is 1000 Scan Resolution, more won't help you scan faster.

So with that Raven, which has 106.25 Scan Resolution. The 10 second base pulse is reduced by 1.0625 seconds to 8.9375 Seconds. A Sensor Booster II with Scan Resolution Script would make that: 170 SR and 8.3 seconds.

Now for passive scanning, this is the part that will make things really interesting. Passive Scanning relies entirely on seeing the Scan Pulses from other ships. Your own Scan Range has no effect on whether you can see a ping from another ship. Passive Scanning does not hide you, but it does allow you to let other players reveal themselves for you rather than you going through the effort of actively scanning. You can passive scan any ship that is sending out scan pulses that reveal you to them. This is especially helpful against larger ships that are out of your scan range and would otherwise be undetectable.

Current Probe Mechanics are still required for making a warpable contact. The new Radar/D-Scan is informational only.

As current, the only way to defeat a Scan Pulse entirely is with a Cloaking Device, but unlike now no more probing or scanning while cloaked. Covert Ops cloaks may be an exception.




This is roughly similar to the submarine way that I propagate for but from a slight different angle. The only thing missing from here is that signature radius should play a part in it as well. This is very vital IMO. Small ships flying solo will be hard to detect. Large ships or group of ships will be easier to detect.

Generally I more than approve otherwise as it is a very valid solution that covers the current problems.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#54 - 2012-11-19 19:00:52 UTC
Perhaps not completely removing a scan button and making it passive will work. How about you just set a falloff timer to where it autoupdates the list for 30 seconds after you press the scan button. This way your only pressing the button twice a minute versus twice every 10 seconds. The only draw back is spamming the dscan or using this time autopdate methods creates lag for the player using it to often. It is sending a signal out and relaying the data back similar to ping or sonar. It would still be an active system just based on how it works.

Be glad it gives you a list of objects and not vertical lines with various thicknesses as the UI. It takes real skill to read lines.

A truly passive system requires someone listening for the sounds of engines and having to guess what type of ships there are and how far out. It takes someone with years of experience to determine this kind of information with a minimum of 15 minutes of only listening to the sounds of the engines with no distractions or other sounds.

I do agree with the changing of the UI to accomidate a target or reticule that appears at smaller degrees. It is ultimately not neccesary though.

As far as removing fleet mates from the dscan results, there is a simple work around. You still don't remove the ships but it does help.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-11-19 19:05:50 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
CCP seems determined to keep the free intel tool, local.


Actually CCP has been openly taking about removing it as an intel tool when they come up with something else to replace it.

Sure, as long as I can get the same information from this new tool. No more and no less.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#56 - 2012-11-19 19:15:44 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Eve is hard, use your aurum and buy a helmet.


OMG just found the hide post option very usefull for people that never contribute and always troll.
Hua Taiji
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-11-20 20:31:02 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
CCP seems determined to keep the free intel tool, local.


Actually CCP has been openly taking about removing it as an intel tool when they come up with something else to replace it.

Sure, as long as I can get the same information from this new tool. No more and no less.



To be honest, I just don't understand why they would want to change the thing. D-Scan has got to be, hands-down, the most useful and underrated tool we have....

C1 WH FOR SALE - COMPLETELY EMPTY - LOW SEC STATIC - PERFECT FOR RESEARCH - HIGH SEC ENTRANCE RIGHT NOW! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174241

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Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-11-20 20:49:09 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
-snip- Agree with OP, D-Scan needs an overhaul.
Programmable with audio alerts would be sweet, also it shouldn't be something you can spam. The current system is one that only a bot would love.

This is correct. The more inane mindless clicking you have to do, the less humans want to do it and the more that bot programmers write code for it. It's stupid. As with many of the BS features in EvE, people say "you'll get used to it". Getting used to it does not mean it is a good feature. I swear to Buddha himself, the EvE Devs lack two words in their cumulative vocabularies: fun and tedium. They don't seem to know the difference.

Radar on ocean going ships of all kinds scans 360 all by itself in a repeating cycle. Why can't Dscan be like that? Turn it on, it scans. Turn it off, it stops.

You still have to look at the scan results with high paranoia. But an auto-repeat-scan function would eliminate the tedium. Uneccessary tedium.
Kenneth O'Hara
Sebiestor Tribe
#59 - 2012-11-20 21:50:08 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
Radar on ocean going ships of all kinds scans 360 all by itself in a repeating cycle. Why can't Dscan be like that? Turn it on, it scans. Turn it off, it stops.

Based on how radar works, I would assume d-scans is a more advanced version of radar though it does give us less information than actual radar.
Urgg Boolean wrote:

You still have to look at the scan results with high paranoia. But an auto-repeat-scan function would eliminate the tedium. Uneccessary tedium.

If we have it setup to auto-ping for information, it creates lag. Which is why it has to "recalibrate" a second or 2 after you press scan. If you are constantly spamming it every few seconds, it will actually backfire on ya and cause lag and thus make you unresponsive for a few seconds. I usually scan anywhere between 8 to 10 seconds. It's kinda like checking your mirrors when you drive. If you are constantly spamming less than 4 seconds apart, of course it's going to be a tedious task that no one wants to do.

It's also smart to always run a cloak on just about everything when you are roaming around. But if you have a specific goal in mind, then fit for that goal.

Bring Saede Riordan back!! Never Forget! _"__Operation Godzilla Smacks Zeus"  ~__Graygor _
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