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The age old question... Golem/CNR and Torps/Cruise. Want everyone's thoughts
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Hikaru Sulu
Black Legion Industries
#1 - 2012-11-18 17:22:38 UTC
Prepare for wall of text:

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the various benefits/drawbacks of Golems and CNR's and whether to fit them with cruise or torps.

So I currently run missions in a Torp Golem with the following fit:

4x Torpedo Launcher II (Usually Javelin torps ,with skills, bonuses, and rigs, javelin torps have just under 60km range)
[ I also carry Rage torpedos for closer BS sized targets but I have noticed an issue with these that I will ask about in the section below]

1 x X-L Shield Booster II (With skills and bonuses, I boost just over 1000 hp per cycle)
1 x Shield Boost Amplifier II
1 x T2 mission specific active hardener
3 x T2 mission specific passive hardeners
1 x PWNAGE target painter (top named instead of t2 because of fitting)

3 x BCU II
1 x Damage Control II

2 x missile velocity rigs for extra range on torps

To begin, my object is to have a ship that runs lvl 4 caldari agent missions in the fastest manner possible. This means being able to apply heavy and consistent damage to targets cruiser sized and up. This fit with its target painter and javelin torps (with thier increased explosion velocity and decreased explosion radius) seems to do quite well with proper cap management on the shield booster, however, I have noticed a few things about torps that I want to know if I can correct by either going to a cruise golem or CNR.

First, I carry rage torps for the closer in BS targets, but after fooling around with them a little and switching types mid fight to see which seemed to do better, it seems like javelin torps still outdamage the rage torps even on large slow targets, which I thought was the point of carrying rage torpedos... It seems like sometimes that a target painted BS sized target still gets hit harder by the javelin torps than the rage. Can someone tell me if I'm noticing right and should just quit bothering with the rage torps? Or if I'm just seeing things and should continue on, or maybe start carrying either standard or navy ammunition for those targets, since they don't suffer quite as much of a penalty on explo velocity and explo radius?

Secondly, in the golem or CNR, could I get a cruise fit that outdamages the javelin torps by a significant amount? Obviously cruise missiles would allow me to hit the smaller rats harder, and still hopefully dish enough damage to take care of BS targets in an expedient manner... I did all the math on this **** a long time ago but I have been out of game so long that I don't know everything that has changed and been balanced, etc etc. It seems like I reached the conclusion then that a javelin torp golem outperformed either a fury cruise CNR or golem. Anyway, just let me know what you guys think / know on the subject, it would be appreciated.

I also don't feel pigeonholed into the marauder anymore because of the advent of the noctis, so I would consider switching to a CNR, but I just don't know if it would actually be any better. It seems like with the tank and target painting benefits of the golem, being able to TP cruiser sized targets pretty well and hit them with the jav torps takes care of the speed problem... Thanks in advance for your advice.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#2 - 2012-11-18 18:03:42 UTC
Current State: Torps cool, but not coolest, cause huge explosionradius.
Upcoming State (4th Dec): Torps fcking awesome, skills and rigs will also affect unguided missile explosion radius. With All V and Explosion Radius rigs aswell as Implant, your Javelin Torps will have a explosionradius roughly at 220m.
Hikaru Sulu
Black Legion Industries
#3 - 2012-11-18 19:23:41 UTC
I'm aware of the changes coming in retribution, and I'll probly re-evaluate then, but for right now I'm concerned with what is the most efficient way to run missions until Dec 4th. Torps with paint/golem bonuses? or cnr with lots of cruise?
It'sNotMyFaultYourMother ThrewYouAway
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-11-18 19:24:31 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Current State: Torps cool, but not coolest, cause huge explosionradius.
Upcoming State (4th Dec): Torps fcking awesome, skills and rigs will also affect unguided missile explosion radius. With All V and Explosion Radius rigs aswell as Implant, your Javelin Torps will have a explosionradius roughly at 220m.


Actually on Golem they're okey. But you need 2x Target Painters and an MWD or 3x TP's for it to be effective.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#5 - 2012-11-18 20:13:24 UTC
Either a CNR or SNI with Cruise will be fine. I have and use both, nothing really between them. The CNR has slightly more paper DPS, the SNI has a better tank. Choose the one you like the look of, neither will let you down.

I'm looking forward to seeing what a post-Retribution Golem is capable of - I may buy one to add to my collection.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#6 - 2012-11-18 20:14:56 UTC
It'sNotMyFaultYourMother ThrewYouAway wrote:
Actually on Golem they're okey. But you need 2x Target Painters and an MWD or 3x TP's for it to be effective.


Aren't some new mid-slot modules being introduced for Torps? Am sure I read something like that - they'd completely do away with the need for TPs.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-11-18 20:48:22 UTC
LOL cruise....

Pretty much sums it up.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
stoicfaux
#8 - 2012-11-18 21:11:01 UTC
Hikaru Sulu wrote:

So I currently run missions in a Torp Golem with the following fit:

4x Torpedo Launcher II (Usually Javelin torps ,with skills, bonuses, and rigs, javelin torps have just under 60km range)
[ I also carry Rage torpedos for closer BS sized targets but I have noticed an issue with these that I will ask about in the section below]

Rage are bad, don't use them. Use CN torps instead. You will need 3-5 TPs to make Rage torps better than CN torps in all but a few cases. After Retribution, it's likely that Rage torps still won't be good because you will still need 2-3 TPs to outperform CN torps, whereas CN torps will only need 0-2 TPs. Fewer TPs is better because you won't lose as much DPS from juggling TPs.

Quote:
1 x PWNAGE target painter (top named instead of t2 because of fitting)

A golem should be using 2-3 TPs.


Quote:
3 x BCU II
1 x Damage Control II

Four BCUs are better. Three of them being CN BCUs is also better. =/

Quote:
To begin, my object is to have a ship that runs lvl 4 caldari agent missions in the fastest manner possible.

If you're missioning in Caldari space, i.e. Guristas, then you'll want to use the CNR due to its higher sensor strength to reduce DPS loss from NPC ECM.

However, Guirstas NPCs are big and slow, so you only need 1-2 TPs per target (1 for BS, 2 for Cruisers.)

I would probably go with the CNR over the Golem due to the following issues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=65340

After Dec 4th, the Golem (and torps) get better, but the range issue is still an issue. If/When missile range and Explosion Radius are affected by tracking modules, then the Golem may be good again. (But probably not as good as the Vargur or Mach.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-11-18 22:55:16 UTC
Cruise Golem is actually borderline fantastic. It gets very good damage projection because of the explosion velocity bonus as well as being able to use faction ammo at low cost because of the slow ROF and only 4x Launchers which helps conserve ammo. A Golem using faction ammo is actually as good DPS wise as a raven using normal ammo. But with better damage projection.

And a CNR using faction ammo costs more then its worth so.

Ofc, as far as Golem goes. Torp is king.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-11-19 01:11:11 UTC
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
Cruise Golem is actually utter garbage.


fixed it for you.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#11 - 2012-11-19 09:18:57 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
If you're missioning in Caldari space, i.e. Guristas, then you'll want to use the CNR due to its higher sensor strength to reduce DPS loss from NPC ECM.


The SNI has higher sensor strength, and real world use proves it suffers less from ECM.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#12 - 2012-11-25 19:49:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Samroski
As you are already using a Golem, I strongly recommend trying cruise missiles (factional) on the ship till 4th Dec.

Use rigor rigs. You can get the explosion radius to less than 140m. A webbed (and TPed) frigate disappears instantly.

Your fit appears to be over-tanked. Use 2 mission specific hardeners and one invulnerability field. Your resists may be the same or better than your current fit, and you will have an extra mid-slot for another TP or a web.

You could easily replace the DC in the lows with another BCU, or with a drone damage mod. Both better utilize this slot imho.

Edit: with the explosion velocity bonus of the Golem, factional cruise missiles have a value of about 133 m/s. The web brings nearly all frigs down to this value, thus ensuring delivery of optimum damage in this context. Thus I try and fit one, even though in some missions it does not get used much.

Any colour you like.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-11-25 21:51:15 UTC
people flying cruise golems make me sad. just buy a raven and give me the 1bil price difference.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Savos Arenn
Acetech Systems
#14 - 2012-11-25 23:05:06 UTC
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
Cruise Golem is actually borderline fantastic. It gets very good damage projection because of the explosion velocity bonus as well as being able to use faction ammo at low cost because of the slow ROF and only 4x Launchers which helps conserve ammo. A Golem using faction ammo is actually as good DPS wise as a raven using normal ammo. But with better damage projection.

And a CNR using faction ammo costs more then its worth so.

Ofc, as far as Golem goes. Torp is king.

You don't need better damage projection when a cruise missile easily has 150km range. Although you mention the explosion velocity bonus so maybe you mean it hits smaller targets better, even then its CNR DPS for 2x the cost when a torp Golem does far more damage to actually justify the cost.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-11-26 17:14:01 UTC
Savos Arenn wrote:
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
Cruise Golem is actually borderline fantastic. It gets very good damage projection because of the explosion velocity bonus as well as being able to use faction ammo at low cost because of the slow ROF and only 4x Launchers which helps conserve ammo. A Golem using faction ammo is actually as good DPS wise as a raven using normal ammo. But with better damage projection.

And a CNR using faction ammo costs more then its worth so.

Ofc, as far as Golem goes. Torp is king.

You don't need better damage projection when a cruise missile easily has 150km range. Although you mention the explosion velocity bonus so maybe you mean it hits smaller targets better, even then its CNR DPS for 2x the cost when a torp Golem does far more damage to actually justify the cost.


the cruise golem's paper dps are lower than a CNR's. just sayin'

I should buy an Ishtar.