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Illogical progression for Artillery Modules

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Calendyr Miir
The vampire piggyz
#1 - 2012-11-18 10:36:41 UTC
Hello,

I just finished training for the 1200mm Large Artillery II modules and got a shock when I looked at the specs.

In essence, the tech II (meta 5) modules for 1200mm artillery have the same battle specs than the meta 4 (scout version) tech I modules except for the fact they require a lot more CPU and Powergrid to fit them.

This makes no sense, why would a meta 5 module be worst than a lower tech meta 4 one?

I checked other weapons and this not find this issue with blasters for exemple.

Can someone explain this to me?
Arrigo Glokta
#2 - 2012-11-18 10:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrigo Glokta
Calendyr Miir wrote:
Hello,

I just finished training for the 1200mm Large Artillery II modules and got a shock when I looked at the specs.

In essence, the tech II (meta 5) modules for 1200mm artillery have the same battle specs than the meta 4 (scout version) tech I modules except for the fact they require a lot more CPU and Powergrid to fit them.

This makes no sense, why would a meta 5 module be worst than a lower tech meta 4 one?

I checked other weapons and this not find this issue with blasters for exemple.

Can someone explain this to me?


They aren't worse than the meta 4.

When you factor the skill large artillery spec. you will be doing more damage with the Tech 2 module. Also, you need to use Tech 2 modules to use Tech 2 ammo, which again, is better than Tech 1.

BUT.... They (Tech 2) are NOT worse than the meta 4. And to suggest so, is just plain silly.
Seraph Castillon
In Control
#3 - 2012-11-18 10:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Castillon
Meta 4 has the same stats as T2. This is the same for any of the guns. However T2 guns get a damage bonus from their respective specialisation skill (2% per level). They also let you use T2 ammo, which can be preferable in certain situations.

Also T2 guns heat up slower.
Alara IonStorm
#4 - 2012-11-18 11:23:50 UTC
Calendyr Miir wrote:

I checked other weapons and this not find this issue with blasters for exemple.

Wat?

All Meta 4 Weapons have the same base stats as T2 Weapons. In fact T2 Weapons that use cap cost more to activate on top of needing more fitting.

It is as said the Spec Bonus and Ammo that make the difference.
It'sNotMyFaultYourMother ThrewYouAway
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-11-18 12:30:48 UTC
T2 with fully trained spec gets 10% more DPS then Meta 4. + The ability to fit T2 Ammo. T2 always has higher fitting recs because it's aimed towards more experienced pilots.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#6 - 2012-11-18 12:54:11 UTC
Anything you have to train for should always be better than anything you can just buy and use. CCP need to sort out T2 launchers and missiles because Faction outperform them (both in terms of RoF & applied damage) and that shouldn't be the case. I know turrets don't have this issue, so why do missiles?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2012-11-18 13:03:48 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:

Also T2 guns heat up slower.


T2 modules burn out faster, and cost more (nanite or ISK) to repair, than meta 4 modules.

T2 used to be cheaper, but these days there are many meta 4 items that cost the same or less than T2, while being plain better. Turrets however behave as described in above posts and you should always use T2 weapons.

.
Seraph Castillon
In Control
#8 - 2012-11-18 13:15:40 UTC
Roime wrote:
Seraph Castillon wrote:

Also T2 guns heat up slower.


T2 modules burn out faster, and cost more (nanite or ISK) to repair, than meta 4 modules.

T2 used to be cheaper, but these days there are many meta 4 items that cost the same or less than T2, while being plain better. Turrets however behave as described in above posts and you should always use T2 weapons.



Yeah, you're right. I don't know why I posted that. I must have mixed up the stats while looking over them again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-11-18 14:07:01 UTC
Arrigo Glokta wrote:
Calendyr Miir wrote:
Hello,

I just finished training for the 1200mm Large Artillery II modules and got a shock when I looked at the specs.

In essence, the tech II (meta 5) modules for 1200mm artillery have the same battle specs than the meta 4 (scout version) tech I modules except for the fact they require a lot more CPU and Powergrid to fit them.

This makes no sense, why would a meta 5 module be worst than a lower tech meta 4 one?

I checked other weapons and this not find this issue with blasters for exemple.

Can someone explain this to me?


They aren't worse than the meta 4.

When you factor the skill large artillery spec. you will be doing more damage with the Tech 2 module. Also, you need to use Tech 2 modules to use Tech 2 ammo, which again, is better than Tech 1.

BUT.... They (Tech 2) are NOT worse than the meta 4. And to suggest so, is just plain silly.



This, it was not always the case before projectiles, oups sry, hybrids rebalancing but right now this man is right on it.

brb
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2012-11-18 14:43:00 UTC
Quote:


When you factor the skill large artillery spec. you will be doing more damage with the Tech 2 module. Also, you need to use Tech 2 modules to use Tech 2 ammo, which again, is better than Tech 1.


Quake and tremor are both utter ****.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

It'sNotMyFaultYourMother ThrewYouAway
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-11-18 15:18:44 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Anything you have to train for should always be better than anything you can just buy and use. CCP need to sort out T2 launchers and missiles because Faction outperform them (both in terms of RoF & applied damage) and that shouldn't be the case. I know turrets don't have this issue, so why do missiles?

Nah, Meta 4 is there to keep newbs competative.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-11-18 23:44:59 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Quote:


When you factor the skill large artillery spec. you will be doing more damage with the Tech 2 module. Also, you need to use Tech 2 modules to use Tech 2 ammo, which again, is better than Tech 1.


Quake and tremor are both utter ****.


You can pop interceptors quite easily with an instacane using Quake (+25% tracking) 2Te's +TC script tracking, and still have enough drone bay for ecm drones if one manages to get too close (happens but welp you can kill some before you die)

brb
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2012-11-19 00:51:07 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Quote:


When you factor the skill large artillery spec. you will be doing more damage with the Tech 2 module. Also, you need to use Tech 2 modules to use Tech 2 ammo, which again, is better than Tech 1.


Quake and tremor are both utter ****.


You can pop interceptors quite easily with an instacane using Quake (+25% tracking) 2Te's +TC script tracking, and still have enough drone bay for ecm drones if one manages to get too close (happens but welp you can kill some before you die)


You can also kill interceptors coming in with proper piloting and real ammo.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#14 - 2012-11-19 02:27:03 UTC
1200mm, people use those?

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-11-19 09:15:02 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
1200mm, people use those?



Well yes, they are a lot more easy to fit than 1400's and dps in almost the same. You lose some alpha though.

TLDR: You trade alpha for fitting.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Calendyr Miir
The vampire piggyz
#16 - 2012-11-20 16:19:19 UTC
Hum...

Well, ok so the spec skill gives a bonus but the turret itself is still worse than the meta 4. I can fit one less of them on my ship because of the insane power and cpu needs... so instead of 8 guns I get 7... the 10% bonus is lost and then some.

This is a mission ship. I don't think using super expensive tech 2 ammo makes sense for this.
Alara IonStorm
#17 - 2012-11-20 16:31:31 UTC
Calendyr Miir wrote:
Hum...

Well, ok so the spec skill gives a bonus but the turret itself is still worse than the meta 4. I can fit one less of them on my ship because of the insane power and cpu needs... so instead of 8 guns I get 7... the 10% bonus is lost and then some.

This is a mission ship. I don't think using super expensive tech 2 ammo makes sense for this.

> Better Skills
> Better Mission Ship designed with High Fitting for Long Range Weapons
> Fitting Rigs and Modules
> Combination of all of the above
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-11-21 11:32:23 UTC
Artillery's meant for long-range, high-alpha strikes; every gunship needs more powergrid for longer-range guns than shorter-range guns, with the idea being that you're supposed to be forced to sacrifice tank in exchange for all that standoff power. (Missiles don't seem to work that way at cruiser and battleship level, for some crazy reason.)

So I get the impression that it's working pretty much as the designers intended.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#19 - 2012-11-22 17:41:05 UTC
Calendyr Miir wrote:
Hum...

Well, ok so the spec skill gives a bonus but the turret itself is still worse than the meta 4. I can fit one less of them on my ship because of the insane power and cpu needs... so instead of 8 guns I get 7... the 10% bonus is lost and then some.

This is a mission ship. I don't think using super expensive tech 2 ammo makes sense for this.

Sounds like you need to work on your fitting skills.

Even using t1 or faction ammo in T2 guns they do way more damage. Large artillery spec 4 is a very short train for 8% more damage. Even if you do not want to take it to 5 for the 10%. I have never had a problem fitting a full rack of them. But then I had all my fitting skills to 5 before I hit 10 mil Sp. Long before training T2 guns.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#20 - 2012-11-26 13:44:29 UTC
Removed some nonconstructive posts. Please remain helpful on these subforums.

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