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Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#241 - 2012-11-18 18:30:38 UTC | Edited by: Tippia

Nathalie LaPorte wrote:

No, you are putting words in my mouth that I have not said. The above is not my position.

Your position is that telling people the consequences of their explicit suggestions is a strawman, whereas assuming that they have other unmentioned suggestions to go with it is not.

Quote:

"the Jita-undock counter". Is there a canonical form of this counter you are referencing?

The same one you're using.

Quote:

yes, both of those statements are naive, making the second naive statement proper in that it copies the same reference model as the statement it replies to. Are you implying that the explicit position of "make collisions do damage" is the best argument in favor of collision damage?

I'm saying that it's pretty much the only position ever presented, without any kind of details or caveats. Naïveté is not a factor — explicitness is. Assuming that the opponent is saying something he isn't saying and addressing that assumption rather than what's said is the whole point.

C: “We need collision damage”
R: “Then Jita 4-4 would explode”
— Not a strawman, just an explanation of the flaw with the plan.

C: “We need collision damage and something to make Jita 4-4 not explode”
R: “Then Jita 4-4 would explode”
— Still not a strawman, just missing the point that the counter-argument had already been addressed.

C: “We need collision damage”
R: “You just want Jita 4-4 to explode you evil griefer you”
— Strawman, since it attacks an assumed intention with the opponent.

Quote:

That is a problematically vague definition

Not really, no, since it's trivially easy to figure out what the opponents have actually said and not.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Given the tactics used today by griefers, flying point to point or not or flying afk is irrelevant.

What do they have to do with anything?

Scatim Helicon

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,457

#242 - 2012-11-18 18:31:17 UTC

Nathalie LaPorte wrote:

Lord Zim wrote:

I, too, want to fleetwarp with 256 other people and throw the dice whether or not I survive the collisions. I, too, want to warp at 0 on an enemy fleet and see which of the two sides get hit the hardest. I, too, want to bump and grind up against other dreads, carriers, supercarriers and titans every time we travel from system to system. I, too, want to see who gets closest to death just from colliding with other ships every time we undock from a station or safe up in a POS or maneuver in fleet etc etc etc.

Yes, let's implement crashing ships mechanics, it'll be awesome.

Yes, since naval ships in the real world never crash into other ships, certainly not just a few months ago. http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/12/world/us-japan-navy-ship-collision/index.html

Would implementing collisions be difficult? Yes. Do I have a good model to suggest? No. If CCP did comprehensively revamp the mechanics so that collisions were possible, would that create a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the current bugswarms of ships locked on an anchor? Yes. Would that create more skill, fight against the blob that so many disparage, give individual pilots more to do than simply hit F1? Yes. Would it create a more realistic AoE model than the current one? Yes.

Hells yes crashing ships mechanics will be awesome. I don't think EVE will ever implement it, but I think another game, perhaps one in which large fleet movements have some kind of AI to model individual ship movement in formations, will indeed have it, and people will look back at EVE and say "wow, that was a great game 20 years ago, but so unrealistic without collision damage".

"I, too, want to fleetwarp with 256 other people and throw the dice whether or not I survive the collisions. "

You would deserve to die, if you did something that you knew would kill you.

" I, too, want to warp at 0 on an enemy fleet and see which of the two sides get hit the hardest. "

kamikazi warfare did actually happen IRL, you know. It would obviously have to be balanced properly, just like every other feature of the game.

"I, too, want to bump and grind up against other dreads, carriers, supercarriers and titans every time we travel from system to system."

That's weird. Why would you want that?

"I, too, want to see who gets closest to death just from colliding with other ships every time we undock from a station or safe up in a POS or maneuver in fleet etc etc etc."

It's too bad people on Earth, with only 2 dimensions of freedom instead of 3 in EVE, can't dock in seaports or maneuver in fleets. With the extra dimension of freedom to move in EVE, there's more potential for things to go right, and also more complexity allowing for things to go wrong. Luckily, with the advances in technology over the next centuries, they'll be able to do these complex tasks that are currently beyond the human race.

Nobody is arguing that bump-damage is unrealistic, they're arguing that its unfun and a terrible idea within current game mechanics.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Shylari Avada

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 300

#243 - 2012-11-18 18:33:51 UTC | Edited by: Shylari Avada

Holy One wrote:

Its pretty straight forward really - don't freight afk. Do use a webbing frigate.

Heh, I'll just pick apart this simple flaw in this argument, if we (Goons) intend to pop a freighter, do you really think we won't gank an untanked frigate with webs in one system, and the freighter on the other side?

Someone tried this with 3 Charons, a Huginn and faction webs recently... It didn't work out for them. Huginn died, Freighters died, pods died. The problem isn't with the stats on the Freighters themselves, its with player ignorance/stupidity. You are never going to get low slots on a freighter, bumping damage is still a bad idea, and the golden rule of EVE again- if someone wants to kill you, it just takes a bump machariel and a system lower than 1.0 security.

In other news I hear the market is really good for T2 Large Blaster Naga Pilots with solid supports! Big smile

Jorma Morkkis

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 455

#244 - 2012-11-18 18:34:48 UTC

Tippia wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Lolar55 wrote:

So much whine and not enough logistic ships.Maybe its time to learn logistics 5 bros.

You'd need quite a few triage carriers to pull that off...

A single Logi can pretty much neutralise a single Talos. So no, you don't need any carriers.

Then demostrate it:
100x 1400mm Nado
1x freighter
1x Scimi (you)

You bring the ships.

Lord Zim

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,451

#245 - 2012-11-18 18:34:58 UTC

Nathalie LaPorte wrote:

Yes, since naval ships in the real world never crash into other ships, certainly not just a few months ago. http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/12/world/us-japan-navy-ship-collision/index.html

Yes, let's make real life analogies. It's awesome and relevant.

Nathalie LaPorte wrote:

"I, too, want to fleetwarp with 256 other people and throw the dice whether or not I survive the collisions. "

You would deserve to die, if you did something that you knew would kill you.

So in other words, instead of having freighter pilots improve their game, CCP should make far-reaching changes which impact how fights go down in nullsec.

Right.

Nathalie LaPorte wrote:

" I, too, want to warp at 0 on an enemy fleet and see which of the two sides get hit the hardest. "

kamikazi warfare did actually happen IRL, you know. It would obviously have to be balanced properly, just like every other feature of the game.

Oh look, another real life analogy.

It would have a wide-ranging impact on literally everything in the game, from bridging, cynoing, undocking, gang/fleetwarping, the list goes on and on and on. And for what?

Oh, that's right, freighter pilots whined about getting the odd bump or two because they were dumb and travelled with too much in their hold without taking any precautions whatsoever.

Nathalie LaPorte wrote:

"I, too, want to bump and grind up against other dreads, carriers, supercarriers and titans every time we travel from system to system."

That's weird. Why would you want that?

Sarcasm, dear. Unless CCP made the circle at which ships come out of bridge/cyno, bumping and grinding would be the norm. Hell, we routinely send titans flying 150km+ on each and every cyno as it is.

Nathalie LaPorte wrote:

"I, too, want to see who gets closest to death just from colliding with other ships every time we undock from a station or safe up in a POS or maneuver in fleet etc etc etc."

It's too bad people on Earth, with only 2 dimensions of freedom instead of 3 in EVE, can't dock in seaports or maneuver in fleets. With the extra dimension of freedom to move in EVE, there's more potential for things to go right, and also more complexity allowing for things to go wrong. Luckily, with the advances in technology over the next centuries, they'll be able to do these complex tasks that are currently beyond the human race.

You've never been in a POS with a few hundred others, have you?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Alavaria Fera

GoonWaffe

Likes received: 6,953

#246 - 2012-11-18 18:35:35 UTC

Someone's forgetting that in "real life" you don't have tons of ships sitting about TRYING to get hit so the other guy gets hurt without you triggering a magical space police.

If anything, the guy that hit you will get wasted by the magical space police.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Nathalie LaPorte

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 242

#247 - 2012-11-18 18:36:20 UTC | Edited by: Nathalie LaPorte

Scatim Helicon wrote:

Nobody is arguing that bump-damage is unrealistic, they're arguing that its unfun and a terrible idea within current game mechanics.

That's true, it is--and if they said just that in those words, no one would take issue with it.

Lord Zim wrote:

So in other words, instead of having freighter pilots improve their game, CCP should make far-reaching changes which impact how fights go down in nullsec.

Right.

No, I explicitly said that CCP shouldn't and won't make these changes to EVE, they're too far reaching. Although I would hope that in an EVE sequel, if that ever happened, they'd be there. Lack of collision damage really does cause a lot of the problems often quoted with nullsec combat. You can object to me making real world comparisons all you want, but the fact is that people's instinctive realization that many of the problems with EVE are caused by this large deviation from realism is why people focus on those problems specifically. When you see 255 ships moving like a swarm of bugs, it looks and feels wrong, it requires AOE to be massively toned down and devalues individual pilot movement skills, and then the chain of consequences continues from there.

My point is that all of your 'reasons' why collision damage is 'bad', are in fact reasons why collision damage is good--we agree that the grapes are out of reach, I'm just taking issue with you pretending that they're sour--which I assumed because you sarcastically used the word 'awesome' to describe them. If you actually agree with me, then...cool.

Beekeeper Bob

Beekeepers Anonymous

Likes received: 1,191

#248 - 2012-11-18 18:36:43 UTC

baltec1 wrote:

Nar Zandev wrote:

Tah'ris Khlador wrote:

You can scout yourself, web yourself, and fly safer loads. Ball has actually been in your court the entire time.

So you`ve seen the balls up close then. Please then tell us what you`ve already said one more time, with your mouth full, 400 mil gank, is able to push down 1.5-5 bil ship in high sec just for lolz.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17641147

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17644123

And these are only a couple of lolz killz :D. I don`t feel sorry for them. Ppl should fly only things they can afford to loose. But still a 400 mil gank vs 1.5 bil, the rates don`t match.

A ships tank should never be based upon their isk value. Hence why the vindicator doesn't tank 7 times that of a megathron.

But it should be based on it's role, and freighters aren't all that well tanked considering their size and role....

Signature removed - CCP Eterne

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#249 - 2012-11-18 18:37:11 UTC

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Tippia wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Lolar55 wrote:

So much whine and not enough logistic ships.Maybe its time to learn logistics 5 bros.

You'd need quite a few triage carriers to pull that off...

A single Logi can pretty much neutralise a single Talos. So no, you don't need any carriers.

Then demostrate it:
~~100x 1400mm Nado~~
13x Talos
1x freighter
~~1x Scimi (you)~~
4x Basilisk

You bring the ships.

Yes, let's, and this time, don't change the argument. Do you want to guess which side will come out on top?


Lord Zim Gallente Federation Likes received: 2,451	#250 - 2012-11-18 18:38:01 UTC Jorma Morkkis wrote: Then demostrate it: 100x 1400mm Nado 1x freighter 1x Scimi (you) You bring the ships. Tell us more about the idiots who would bring 100x nados to gank a single freighter. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. RIP Vile Rat

Alavaria Fera

GoonWaffe

Likes received: 6,953

#251 - 2012-11-18 18:38:50 UTC

Lord Zim wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Then demostrate it:
100x 1400mm Nado
1x freighter
1x Scimi (you)

You bring the ships.

Tell us more about the idiots who would bring 100x nados to gank a single freighter.

~Evil blobbers~

So you're saying that CCP need to buff freighters to be able to take 100 tornados? Interesting concept.


Jorma Morkkis State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 455	#252 - 2012-11-18 18:40:35 UTC Lord Zim wrote: Tell us more about the idiots who would bring 100x nados to gank a single freighter. "Just in case" since according to Drop: alpha can be neutralized with logi support.


Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops Likes received: 27,526	#253 - 2012-11-18 18:44:04 UTC \| Edited by: Tippia 1 Jorma Morkkis wrote: "Just in case" since according to Drop: alpha can be neutralized with logi support. Good thing that no-one ever said anything like that, then (least of all someone who hasn't posted in four years).

Lord Zim

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 2,451

#254 - 2012-11-18 18:44:31 UTC

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Lord Zim wrote:

Tell us more about the idiots who would bring 100x nados to gank a single freighter.

"Just in case" since according to Drop: alpha can be neutralized with logi support.

So, uh, this is really the kind of logic you're going to bring to the table? Really?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Alavaria Fera

GoonWaffe

Likes received: 6,953

#255 - 2012-11-18 18:46:51 UTC

Lord Zim wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Lord Zim wrote:

Tell us more about the idiots who would bring 100x nados to gank a single freighter.

"Just in case" since according to Drop: alpha can be neutralized with logi support.

So, uh, this is really the kind of logic you're going to bring to the table? Really?

Strawman right there.

I guess Talos is evolving. Talos evolved into Tornado!

2,069
Ginger Barbarella Likes received: 2,069	#256 - 2012-11-18 18:48:29 UTC For those of you who can't be pissed to learn how to play this game, just leave. Trash all yer fail stuff and recycle the toon. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Mag's

Azn Empire

Likes received: 21,366

#257 - 2012-11-18 18:49:13 UTC

Alavaria Fera wrote:

Lord Zim wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Lord Zim wrote:

Tell us more about the idiots who would bring 100x nados to gank a single freighter.

"Just in case" since according to Drop: alpha can be neutralized with logi support.

So, uh, this is really the kind of logic you're going to bring to the table? Really?

Strawman right there.

I guess Talos is evolving. Talos evolved into Tornado!

Look at the nads on that Talos. Shocked

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 11,585
Andski Science and Trade Institute Caldari State Likes received: 11,585	#258 - 2012-11-18 18:53:25 UTC Beekeeper Bob wrote: But it should be based on it's role, and freighters aren't all that well tanked considering their size and role.... What's the role of a freighter? Twitter: @EVEAndski "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Andski

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 11,585

#259 - 2012-11-18 18:54:10 UTC

Nar Zandev wrote:

Tah'ris Khlador wrote:

You can scout yourself, web yourself, and fly safer loads. Ball has actually been in your court the entire time.

EVE isn't balanced by cost.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Ghazu

Likes received: 718

#260 - 2012-11-18 18:58:27 UTC

Nar Zandev wrote:

Tah'ris Khlador wrote:

You can scout yourself, web yourself, and fly safer loads. Ball has actually been in your court the entire time.

Oh those? Notice the plastic wraps, they are like scratch lotto tickets.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984

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