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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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DarkMasterAnt
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6081 - 2012-11-17 07:36:24 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:

The Cruiser balances may help to alleviate that.


Thats all well and good, but it doesnt really take away the fact that the t2 hulls (Cerberus and Nighthawk) are both already terrible ships which will only be made worse by a heavy missile nerf.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6082 - 2012-11-17 09:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: serras bang
Giribaldi wrote:
Im going to restate my previose post on page 301...

what i think needs to be done is bring heavy missle range up to par with med guns range sniping mods... I dont have eft open atm but well use examples for the mean time... 720mm arties tw reach 75km with long range t2 ammo heavies need to tobe nerfed to the same range with movement of ship calculate so prrob raw range wih max skills being 87km to compensate for movement and the fact that there missiles they should go further...max skills being the obviose factor in my calculations... Then increase heavies dps to do 10-15% more dmg then all mid class long range weaponsfor the sheer fact that there instant ..missiles have to travel... Which should bring them down from i think 320dps to 180 not sure thou but u see where im going with this... Then second stage... Ham range needa to be 18-20 km max skills (not inculdig rigs or implants in any factor of my calculation in post).. Increase dmg of present dps to match others but have them do 5% more for the fact that once again flight time... I think its a start... May or may not be balanced... Im on my phone so number crunching and fit testing is not optional... (all calcs are done with t2 rage ammo ie 18kmwith rage 23-25 faction/t1 27-29 lr t2 ammo... Also making there pg match heavy missiles would be perfect to... Seeing as srguns have way less pg usage then therenlr companions... Thx


hml with tech 2 ammo will be aroun 55 - 60 km so less than your med long range ammo yes its true even with hml navy ammo most will only see about 75 - 80km this would have been much much less if initial nerfing had went through.

as for others in this thread missles are a unique system and are more sp inteansive to train them all than another races guns.

also you gotta take into acount not just weapons but also ships caldari may have long ranged highest dps at ranged weapons but there are are the slowest balancing weapons against each others if you do not take into the account of there ships.

yes weapons should have balance yet missles are not the longest range weapon system out there (sure can be with highly specilised fits) but in general not close but all weapon styles should have there advantage to ofset the kinds of ships they use atm only caldari ships hold this the others compliment the ships they are being used on.
marVLs
#6083 - 2012-11-17 09:48:04 UTC
Can someone check how much DPS would have Raven Navy on All 5 with 4xCN BCU and T2 Cruise Launchers (Fury missiles) with 3xRigor Rigs(2x tech1 + 1x tech2)? And how big is expl radius?


Thanks for that
Malakai Krughar
Doomheim
#6084 - 2012-11-17 17:35:59 UTC
Hello,

I am very fond of the HAM and HM launchers.
They are fun, easy to use and do decent damage.
I personally think HM's are a little under powered but accept this due to their decent range (which only really a tengu can utilise).

I strongly suggest that your creative team/think tank sit down and gather as much information about the current use of HM's and HAM's, the various ship setups they are utilised in,the role of these ships play in pvp, fleet, wh's etc... before making any changes.

C
Endo Pryde
Gold Ring Enterprises
#6085 - 2012-11-18 07:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Endo Pryde
I will try to leave my opinions in a way that makes them easy to read and mark down without taking too much of your time to read them:

The missile changes are excellent: Heavy Missiles ARE overpowered while HAMs and Torpedoes struggle to deal full damage against enemies of the same size category.

However, it is true that Heavy Missiles are lacking in range upgrades besides ship bonuses. I wouldn't complain if you keep them this way, but if you do decide to add a range mod here is my suggestion: Create a low-slot module that increases missile flight time by 20% for the T2 variant, yet adds no bonus to missile velocity. Most missile ships have few low slots, so a large increase is necessary to put them on par with other sniping setups, but it should NOT increase missile velocity for two main reasons:

-First, this will allow a small ship with a MWD to close on the sniper if he flies smartly. A big enough stack of velocity bonuses would make it impossible to avoid the missile-sniper's firepower even when the opponent "deserves" to avoid it.

-Second, it would prevent the dominance of large-scale by fleets of missile snipers. In these types of fleets, dependable damage is key, and it is the long delay in damage that keeps cruise missiles from being overpowered in these engagements, at least until players come up with a fleet doctrine that compensates for the delay.


I also agree with you about the hurricane: Autocanes aren't overpowered because they can fit a full rack of guns, they're overpowered because they can fit a full rack of guns AND two medium energy neuts, while other ships must choose between full-sized guns with small neuts, or smaller guns with medium neuts.
Endo Pryde
Gold Ring Enterprises
#6086 - 2012-11-18 07:30:45 UTC
serras bang wrote:
[quote=Giribaldi]Im going to restate my previose post on page 301...
as for others in this thread missles are a unique system and are more sp inteansive to train them all than another races guns.


In order to train T2 large guns you must first train T2 medium and T2 small of that type, but with missiles you can skip over the lower tiers and train T2 torpedoes or cruise missiles directly. For this reason, missiles are LESS skill point intensive than other weapon systems.
Rokokoko
Quality Insanity
#6087 - 2012-11-18 07:39:30 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Can someone check how much DPS would have Raven Navy on All 5 with 4xCN BCU and T2 Cruise Launchers (Fury missiles) with 3xRigor Rigs(2x tech1 + 1x tech2)? And how big is expl radius?


Thanks for that


Its does 800 dps with a 223 radius according to my updated version of eft
Ajunta Pal
Sith Wannabies Annonymous
#6088 - 2012-11-18 09:38:17 UTC
Endo Pryde wrote:
serras bang wrote:
[quote=Giribaldi]Im going to restate my previose post on page 301...
as for others in this thread missles are a unique system and are more sp inteansive to train them all than another races guns.


In order to train T2 large guns you must first train T2 medium and T2 small of that type, but with missiles you can skip over the lower tiers and train T2 torpedoes or cruise missiles directly. For this reason, missiles are LESS skill point intensive than other weapon systems.



True, but not going into tech2 if you were to train all 5s for projectile including support skills it takes a lot less time to train into hybrid or laser. Also, for missiles, our short range weapons systems and long range weapon systems are separate skill paths. For instance, if I want to have "large" missile skills I need to train both cruise and torp for t1 equivalent, where as with projectiles its just large projectile turrets.

Also note, large turret specializations is a 5x skill, torps/cruise t2 is a 8x skill....
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#6089 - 2012-11-18 12:57:41 UTC
Ajunta Pal wrote:
True, but not going into tech2 if you were to train all 5s for projectile including support skills it takes a lot less time to train into hybrid or laser. Also, for missiles, our short range weapons systems and long range weapon systems are separate skill paths. For instance, if I want to have "large" missile skills I need to train both cruise and torp for t1 equivalent, where as with projectiles its just large projectile turrets.

Also note, large turret specializations is a 5x skill, torps/cruise t2 is a 8x skill....

We don't care about this. No skill training time requirement should make your weapon system OP compared to the others. Eventually, everyone will have everything. We don't want everyone using the same broken weapon eventually, we want diversity.
Ajunta Pal
Sith Wannabies Annonymous
#6090 - 2012-11-18 21:12:41 UTC
Yea, yea, don't chew me out, I'm not the one who brought up the topic of skills.

Yes, Heavy Missiles are overpowered compared to other medium long range weapons. Too much dps, too long of a range. And HAMs are underpowered vs smaller ships...you can't shoot frigates for crap without a "specialized" fitting....I think they are right on target for cruiser and up though. By crap I mean that without web/TP AND rigs you are going to use 3x or more the ammo on frigates, without any of those its going to be 10x+. I'm pretty sure HAMs will be fixed with some of the changes.

Overall I think the problem is more the ships using the weapon system than the weapon system itself. Tengu's have ungodly bonuses to missiles...but then again I think it should...T3 cruisers SHOULD compete with battleships (compete, not dominate) On the other hand, Drakes have a silly stupid tank, making it so heavy missiles become useful in PvP despite the delayed damage.

I'm all for the current round of nerfs, and I know from the numbers that this round isn't going to break my PvE setup - not even close. Heck, I might even be able to switch from HMLs to HAMs for effective PvE...it all depends on how much the changes improve HAMs ability to hit frigates.
Faora Zod
Don't mess with this DoJo
#6091 - 2012-11-18 23:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Faora Zod
What amazes me about these changes is that

1. after trying them out on the test server they are crap, no more buying GTCs to turn into plexes to put up for sale to replace lost drakes and tengu,. Yeah for lost revenue for CCP!
2. One of the best things about the Drake is how quickly new players can train to use one, it is a simple good ship to use and actually helps draw new people into the game, before they have to train into something more complicated to fly. I see more and more people being turned off from Eve, less new players means more lost revenue!

I am sure that if these changes go into effect that I will not be the only one to let my accounts lapse and just move on to another game.

Balancing the game? Really? Seems more like an idea to weaken two of the best ships in the game hoping people will buy more GTCs to convert to salable plexes to replace the loses.

There is a saying, if it is not broken don't fix it.

Once everyone realizes all the changes that CCP is making to this game is just another means to get us to spend more money on it buying GTCs they are screwed, No more extra money for them.

Buy the GTC! it is worth 2 months game time, a 30 dollar value for 35 dollars! Oh but you can split it into single months and sale them in game for ISK! oh wait or you can convert it in to another form of currency and buy pants! Lost a billion isk ship? That's okay buy a GTC and sale the plexes!

It is getting ridicules CCP, quit screwing **** up
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#6092 - 2012-11-19 01:38:41 UTC  |  Edited by: OldWolf69
Also note, large turret specializations is a 5x skill, torps/cruise t2 is a 8x skill....[/quote]
We don't care about this. No skill training time requirement should make your weapon system OP compared to the others. Eventually, everyone will have everything. We don't want everyone using the same broken weapon eventually, we want diversity.[/quote]
***
Lulzy, lulzy. OP compared to 3 kinds of broken tools? Since when working right equals being OP? I just love the "OP" statement. Consider it a direct result of poor content and weak solutions for situations, since it usually reffers to solving a set of conditions set like they are by CCP, not by the tools personal ability. Once again, why not have a different coloured Ibis? 4 colours, 4 races? Same for the weapons. No OP, no sh*t, no sandbox...no EvE?
***
Outta curiousity, why does noone comment how missile nerf will hit the player used Guristas ships?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#6093 - 2012-11-19 04:18:29 UTC
One thing this alliance tournament has made perfectly clear....

Out of the 350 or so ships featured in this alliance tournament, there have been precisely zero Drakes, zero Tengus, zero Caracals, zero Cerbs. We've seen damn near every ship in the game EXCEPT the heavy missile ships that CCP Fozzie claims are so overpowered they need a special nerf while everything else in the game gets a buff.

We have, however, seen ECM. Lots and lots of ECM ships. We've seen entire fleets built on damn near nothing else. They failed. Amazingly, they failed basically every time they were tried. Which means, in CCP Fozzie's opinion, it also desperately needs to be nerfed.

What can we conclude from all this? Bloody little, beyond this: these guys, who put billions of isk on the line for a chance to compete, and who can fly basically any ship or weapons system they like, do NOT agree that HMLs are overpowered. If they did they would be using them.

Something to think about.

Apteko
Perkone
Caldari State
#6094 - 2012-11-19 10:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Apteko
Quote:
We don't care about this


We? Who? You are so...mmm...Jormish %)

And what do you expect, coming with arguments like:
- PVP ravens
- 140 km sniping HML cerberus (hey guys, don't die, just wait half a minute, and i will deal some damage)
- 1000dps 50km ham tengu with SE and no prop mod
Ah, it's pretty good idea to compare HML tengu with 250mm tengu. Can fit - must use, huh?:)

Quote:
do NOT agree that HMLs are overpowered


Tengu/drake fleets are overpowered. And I believe, it's the only thing ccp want to fix. Not because weapon system is powerful, but cuz main problem with HM damage application is covered in blobs.

Some kind of anti-missile module will solve the problem. AOE field around your ship, partially disrupting missile navigation systems, huh? Low power, but cumulative effect.
Anyway I can't imagine, that this is new idea. They just don't want to create such a counter: server will drop down...
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6095 - 2012-11-19 12:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: serras bang
OT Smithers wrote:
One thing this alliance tournament has made perfectly clear....

Out of the 350 or so ships featured in this alliance tournament, there have been precisely zero Drakes, zero Tengus, zero Caracals, zero Cerbs. We've seen damn near every ship in the game EXCEPT the heavy missile ships that CCP Fozzie claims are so overpowered they need a special nerf while everything else in the game gets a buff.

We have, however, seen ECM. Lots and lots of ECM ships. We've seen entire fleets built on damn near nothing else. They failed. Amazingly, they failed basically every time they were tried. Which means, in CCP Fozzie's opinion, it also desperately needs to be nerfed.

What can we conclude from all this? Bloody little, beyond this: these guys, who put billions of isk on the line for a chance to compete, and who can fly basically any ship or weapons system they like, do NOT agree that HMLs are overpowered. If they did they would be using them.

Something to think about.



love this point however there was caldari missles ships last turnment most of the field was infact dominated with minmatar ships just like it had been for a while and really guys lets end the debate.

yes drake have a badass tank so what ?
yes tengus have great dps so what how many other caldari ships have you seen being used on a regular bassis except 2 bill isk CNRS

simply put the stregnth of a missle systems was it long range as caldari shield generaly dosent fair to well. amd missle even its tech 2 varients have always produced less dps than its gunnery counterparts. want prof ?

kestral 50 - 60 km 100 dps there or there about (with close to max skills)
galenty drone boat (the 5 drone one) 150 dps near enough

this is with my mear 1.5 mill sp in guns compaired to 6.6 in missles and i wasnt even useing tech 2 hybrids in this

torp raven around 1k dps (with rage)
vindicator 1600 dps

see the numbers speack for it self guns prodice more dps than missle yes over a shorter range but heh that why missles have its range all you guys gotta do is get close.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#6096 - 2012-11-19 12:29:06 UTC
I think all the hate comes from a precise kind of players, unhappy to see Sheeps got sharp Teeths. "Lol, i'm the uber-awesome 2004 player" won't count much against the noob drake blob, isn't it? Except the range argument, wich is understandable, we all know there's no valid reason for the dmg nerf, do we, Mr. Fozzy?Big smile
But everyone must give his part on this game's advance, no matter if's a good or bad part. Noone will look closer at the results anyway, lol. Last 8 years proved it, by going a bit down every year.
***Bring The Awesomeness Back*** <-that's what we should ask, not hate some tools like weapons. Pixel weapons.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#6097 - 2012-11-19 16:11:42 UTC
serras bang wrote:
simply put the stregnth of a missle systems was it long range as caldari shield generaly dosent fair to well. amd missle even its tech 2 varients have always produced less dps than its gunnery counterparts. want prof ?

kestral 50 - 60 km 100 dps there or there about (with close to max skills)
galenty drone boat (the 5 drone one) 150 dps near enough

this is with my mear 1.5 mill sp in guns compaired to 6.6 in missles and i wasnt even useing tech 2 hybrids in this

torp raven around 1k dps (with rage)
vindicator 1600 dps

see the numbers speack for it self guns prodice more dps than missle yes over a shorter range but heh that why missles have its range all you guys gotta do is get close.

Lol comparison between pirate BS and tier2 BS. xD
Why don't you compare a machariel to a drake while you are at this kind of funny comparisons ?

And the drones... lol.

Alliance tournament now : there was tengus in it, some fleets. Fun fact : in the Open Tournament, tengus have been banned MANY times. You cannot see a banned ship in the Open Tournament.

Second thing about the tournament : the buble of death : go too far, and your ship explode. A ship relying on kiting is at huge disadvantage. ECM ? The teams relying ONLY on them indeed died ; the teams who bring some dps to actually kill their ennemies with ECM support did very well. Anyway, the tournament's rules hugely favour gallente and minmatar, exactly like blob warfare hugely favor amarr and caldari.

For the skills we don't care, "we" refer to those people who care about balancing ships between themselves. If skills mattered, we would need titans back to blapping everything.

And finaly, as already said, the only fact that the drake can compete at "close" range with HML, and moreover, that HML are often prefered over HAM brawling duty clearly show there is a problem. And as HML are sometimes even better than some Large LR weapon systems, then you cannot denny there is a problem. We could indeed buff everything, though we would call this powercreep, and it's bad.

Final question : the only answer to what is the origin of cruise missile problem are "lol cruise missiles" and "delayed damage". Considering the uselessness of the first answer, and the fact that the second would imply that HM which are slower than CM suffer from this problem too to the point they are not used for this reason (clearly wrong, as battleclinic stats says), should I consider nobody knows why they are bad ? or that they are not bad in fact and it's only HML which are better ?
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#6098 - 2012-11-19 16:23:04 UTC
I've been a regular contributor to this thread throughout the 300+pages and am strongly opposed to the missile nerf in any form. I cant add anything of any substance to the previous arguments though, I think the topic has been exhausted. I was around (albeit with a different toon) the last time that the missiles got nerfed a few years back and still belive that this prior nerf was a mistake.

If this nerf goes through, it wont matter what weapon system you choose to train, it won't matter how many sp you have in a given range of skills as we will have lost all diversity in the game. Why choose a weapon system at all if the result is that you will dish out the same damage as someone else at an equivalent skill level. What if the systems of eve become so finly balanced that hybrids perform the same as projectiles and projectiles perform the same as lasers and lasers perform the same as missiles. It makes choosing a training path pointless. We all might as well have a single skill we can dump our sp into called 'Shipboard Weapons' which allows you to fire and use any weapon in the game. This quest for 'balance' in a 'by feel' way risks destroying the game.

As for the drake so what if it is a bit tanky, anyone can take a drake down if they know their enemy, how about using some ewar and get the jammers on it, it can't fire **** then and without it's missiles it's dps is 0 and a flight of 5 drones a mere nuisance to a decently fit BC. It's possible to overwhelm the average passive recharged+hardener+rigged fit drake with a Welp Hurricane ffs. If they try to up the regen it's usually at the expense of hardeners which leaves the ship vulnerable to EM.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Apteko
Perkone
Caldari State
#6099 - 2012-11-19 17:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Apteko
Quote:
"we" refer to those people who care about balancing ships between themselves.


What? You're not welcome.^) So no "we" please, thank you.

Quote:
And finaly, as already said, the only fact that the drake can compete at "close" range with HML, and moreover, that HML are often prefered over HAM brawling duty clearly show there is a problem.


They are not prefered at "close" range. People just got pg problems with HAMLs or don't want to lose a month to train them. Not because HMLs are OP, but cuz HAMs were broken.

And if you can't kill HM drake with Harb or Cane at "close" range...then...

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Final question : the only answer to what is the origin of cruise missile problem are "lol cruise missiles" and "delayed damage". Considering the uselessness of the first answer, and the fact that the second would imply that HM which are slower than CM suffer from this problem too to the point they are not used for this reason (clearly wrong, as battleclinic stats says), should I consider nobody knows why they are bad ? or that they are not bad in fact and it's only HML which are better ?


Ah...ofc. There is no PVP Ravens because no one tried them ever. :)
It's too fat, to be serious, really.

Anyway. You feel, that you're competent enough to have such opinion. So please tell us, what is main problem with "delayed damage"?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#6100 - 2012-11-19 18:57:03 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
serras bang wrote:
simply put the stregnth of a missle systems was it long range as caldari shield generaly dosent fair to well. amd missle even its tech 2 varients have always produced less dps than its gunnery counterparts. want prof ?

kestral 50 - 60 km 100 dps there or there about (with close to max skills)
galenty drone boat (the 5 drone one) 150 dps near enough

this is with my mear 1.5 mill sp in guns compaired to 6.6 in missles and i wasnt even useing tech 2 hybrids in this

torp raven around 1k dps (with rage)
vindicator 1600 dps

see the numbers speack for it self guns prodice more dps than missle yes over a shorter range but heh that why missles have its range all you guys gotta do is get close.

Lol comparison between pirate BS and tier2 BS. xD
Why don't you compare a machariel to a drake while you are at this kind of funny comparisons ?

And the drones... lol.

Alliance tournament now : there was tengus in it, some fleets. Fun fact : in the Open Tournament, tengus have been banned MANY times. You cannot see a banned ship in the Open Tournament.

Second thing about the tournament : the buble of death : go too far, and your ship explode. A ship relying on kiting is at huge disadvantage. ECM ? The teams relying ONLY on them indeed died ; the teams who bring some dps to actually kill their ennemies with ECM support did very well. Anyway, the tournament's rules hugely favour gallente and minmatar, exactly like blob warfare hugely favor amarr and caldari.

For the skills we don't care, "we" refer to those people who care about balancing ships between themselves. If skills mattered, we would need titans back to blapping everything.

And finaly, as already said, the only fact that the drake can compete at "close" range with HML, and moreover, that HML are often prefered over HAM brawling duty clearly show there is a problem. And as HML are sometimes even better than some Large LR weapon systems, then you cannot denny there is a problem. We could indeed buff everything, though we would call this powercreep, and it's bad.

Final question : the only answer to what is the origin of cruise missile problem are "lol cruise missiles" and "delayed damage". Considering the uselessness of the first answer, and the fact that the second would imply that HM which are slower than CM suffer from this problem too to the point they are not used for this reason (clearly wrong, as battleclinic stats says), should I consider nobody knows why they are bad ? or that they are not bad in fact and it's only HML which are better ?


It is true that Tengus have been banned by several teams in quite a few matches. However, even in matches when they weren't banned none have been fielded. Nor have they fielded the Drake. The Myrmidon and Brutix? Yes! But the Drake? Not a one. Nor have they fielded the Cerberus, the Caracal, or any other dedicated HML platform.

This is the Open Tournament, which means teams of some of the best PILOTS in the game (rather than teams from the biggest null sec alliances). They can fly anything they like. No one has banned the Drake from any match. No one has banned the Nighthawk. No one has banned the Cerb or Caracal. And so far no one has even tried to use one. The reason is simple:

The HML Drake is a fine ship and heavy missiles are a fine weapon. But they are, in fact, nothing special in the game. On the forums, where EFT Warriors theorycraft their way to virtual glory, they are the ship all the cool kids love to hate. But in the real game world, where real pilots put their isk on the line, they are nothing more than a solid reliable choice.

The Drake is the Honda Minivan of virtual spaceships.

As for Cruise Ravens.... the reason no one uses the Raven in ANY form is that it's a piece of crap. It's slow, bad resists and terrible tank, severe fitting issues, mis-alocated slot layout. It's just bad. And cruise missiles themselves are fine for what they can do, it's just that what they can do is not useful in the game.