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Ore Quality by Sec Status
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psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-11-17 11:57:57 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Psycho freak.

Your ignorance, arrogance and prejudice is not welcome here.

So, **** off.



Lol

my thoughts are as valid as anyone in this game m8

Also i live in losec have done for years and ppl talk about changeing my ingame home to suit them instead of adapting to the space like the rest of losec dwellers have i will say fu#k off we dont want you in our area you have hisec and have cryed so much to ccp that they changed it to suit the carebare mineing barge buff/war dec price/ new crime watch

we see what impact carebares have on theyer area and it sucks we like losec as it is free for all fight club and dont want your fuzzy fuzzy types here but feel free to come to losec by all means watching carebares cry in local is funny as hell getting them on coms to sing to save they ship is priceless

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
Dave stark
#82 - 2012-11-17 12:07:49 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
would they though?

SOME industrialist would make the more and they would probable get into pvp as a result. These are the people we need in low sec. Let all the afk miners stay in high sec mining veldspar if that's what they want to do.


because it costs more to replace ships than you're earning from mining, is why.

3 of of the 5 most lucrative non-mercoxit ores are low sec ores. yet very few people are mining in low sec. what does that tell you?


That you didn't read what i said...

I said make it so the only ore you can mine in high sec is veldspar (unless you find a grav site) and the other ores would become a lot more lucrative. When the ore prices increase to the point where mining in low sec is worth the risk, people will come and the strongest will survive.


and then because of that ship prices will go through the roof and nobody will be happy about that.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-11-17 12:08:44 UTC
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#84 - 2012-11-17 12:47:53 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
would they though?

SOME industrialist would make the more and they would probable get into pvp as a result. These are the people we need in low sec. Let all the afk miners stay in high sec mining veldspar if that's what they want to do.


because it costs more to replace ships than you're earning from mining, is why.

3 of of the 5 most lucrative non-mercoxit ores are low sec ores. yet very few people are mining in low sec. what does that tell you?


That you didn't read what i said...

I said make it so the only ore you can mine in high sec is veldspar (unless you find a grav site) and the other ores would become a lot more lucrative. When the ore prices increase to the point where mining in low sec is worth the risk, people will come and the strongest will survive.

Though in this case you would have to limit force projection fom null into low somehow. Otherwise the strongest will mostly be null entities with lowsec affiliates. I doubt, that this is what many lowsec inhabitants have in mind, when they talk of improving lowsec.

Remove standings and insurance.
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-11-17 12:57:59 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
would they though?

SOME industrialist would make the more and they would probable get into pvp as a result. These are the people we need in low sec. Let all the afk miners stay in high sec mining veldspar if that's what they want to do.


because it costs more to replace ships than you're earning from mining, is why.

3 of of the 5 most lucrative non-mercoxit ores are low sec ores. yet very few people are mining in low sec. what does that tell you?


That you didn't read what i said...

I said make it so the only ore you can mine in high sec is veldspar (unless you find a grav site) and the other ores would become a lot more lucrative. When the ore prices increase to the point where mining in low sec is worth the risk, people will come and the strongest will survive.

Though in this case you would have to limit force projection fom null into low somehow. Otherwise the strongest will mostly be null entities with lowsec affiliates. I doubt, that this is what many lowsec inhabitants have in mind, when they talk of improving lowsec.



Yea like when nulli sucunda joined fw to farm it and got they @ss handed to them by one corp in min faction nice job btw Qcats :-)

the improvment most us lowecers want in losec has nothing to do with mineing or ore we want things like remove gate guns so frigs can fight at gates and gate guns are pointless coz of insta locking hics and t3s all they do now is stop frig pvp

losec is already a very ritch area if you know what your doing

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-11-17 13:01:08 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
would they though?

SOME industrialist would make the more and they would probable get into pvp as a result. These are the people we need in low sec. Let all the afk miners stay in high sec mining veldspar if that's what they want to do.


because it costs more to replace ships than you're earning from mining, is why.

3 of of the 5 most lucrative non-mercoxit ores are low sec ores. yet very few people are mining in low sec. what does that tell you?


That you didn't read what i said...

I said make it so the only ore you can mine in high sec is veldspar (unless you find a grav site) and the other ores would become a lot more lucrative. When the ore prices increase to the point where mining in low sec is worth the risk, people will come and the strongest will survive.

Though in this case you would have to limit force projection fom null into low somehow. Otherwise the strongest will mostly be null entities with lowsec affiliates. I doubt, that this is what many lowsec inhabitants have in mind, when they talk of improving lowsec.


So people in null sec would come to low sec to mine? Why wouldn't they just mine in null sec?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#87 - 2012-11-17 13:19:27 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
would they though?

SOME industrialist would make the more and they would probable get into pvp as a result. These are the people we need in low sec. Let all the afk miners stay in high sec mining veldspar if that's what they want to do.


because it costs more to replace ships than you're earning from mining, is why.

3 of of the 5 most lucrative non-mercoxit ores are low sec ores. yet very few people are mining in low sec. what does that tell you?


That you didn't read what i said...

I said make it so the only ore you can mine in high sec is veldspar (unless you find a grav site) and the other ores would become a lot more lucrative. When the ore prices increase to the point where mining in low sec is worth the risk, people will come and the strongest will survive.

Though in this case you would have to limit force projection fom null into low somehow. Otherwise the strongest will mostly be null entities with lowsec affiliates. I doubt, that this is what many lowsec inhabitants have in mind, when they talk of improving lowsec.


So people in null sec would come to low sec to mine? Why wouldn't they just mine in null sec?

If some ores would be more common or even exclusively available in lowsec (as a one of the proposed buffs to low in this thread), there are going to be fights about them. As it is, nullsec alliances have the means to ensure supplies and they will have to put them to good use.

Remove standings and insurance.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-11-17 13:24:58 UTC
I don't get what you are talking about... Null sec will not be affected and there will be no benefit to a null sec'er to mine in low sec.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#89 - 2012-11-17 13:39:25 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I don't get what you are talking about... Null sec will not be affected and there will be no benefit to a null sec'er to mine in low sec.

Yeah I guess. Because the posts got mixed upt through quoting. I'm referring partly to your post and partly to Dave starks, especially this passage here:

Dave stark wrote:
as it stands if you want low ends you afk mine in empire space. if you want high ends you mine uninterrupted in a cyno jammed gate bubbled indy 4 system in null.

all minerals can be obtained from those two locations, leaving low the most undesirable place to mine in the entire game. it's the least secure and doesn't offer any reward for taking the risk. 20% more yield isn't going to get me mining in low sec. i'll spend more than 20% of my time docked every time a neut jumps in to the system.

the solution is to only have certain minerals coming from certain ores that come from certain security statuses. example, high only giving trit/pyerite/mexallon, null only giving zyd/mega/morph, and low giving iso/nocx.

Remove standings and insurance.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#90 - 2012-11-17 14:35:51 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Also, more miners in low will mean more ship losses, which means a greater demand on minerals aswell... so that might even counterbalance the change completely.

except if people are losing ships, they won't mine there as the cost of replacing ships will outweigh the profits of higher yield ores.

I said in the same post that not many people would go out to low for exactly that reason. You dont need to quote me to tell me what I've already said. Bit of a waste.
psycho freak wrote:
my thoughts are as valid as anyone in this game m8

Don't flatter yourself. They really aren't.
psycho freak wrote:
ppl talk about changeing my ingame home to suit them

It may be your home, but it's my home as well. I'm not some carebear, I just happen not to suffer from the prejudices you do. Anyone without prejudices' opinion is worth more than someone with.

You only prove my point by instantly presuming I live in highsec.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#91 - 2012-11-17 14:41:40 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Though in this case you would have to limit force projection fom null into low somehow. Otherwise the strongest will mostly be null entities with lowsec affiliates. I doubt, that this is what many lowsec inhabitants have in mind, when they talk of improving lowsec.

So people in null sec would come to low sec to mine? Why wouldn't they just mine in null sec?

We, too, would love to hotdrop titans on mining ops.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-11-17 15:26:27 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Also, more miners in low will mean more ship losses, which means a greater demand on minerals aswell... so that might even counterbalance the change completely.

except if people are losing ships, they won't mine there as the cost of replacing ships will outweigh the profits of higher yield ores.

I said in the same post that not many people would go out to low for exactly that reason. You dont need to quote me to tell me what I've already said. Bit of a waste.
psycho freak wrote:
my thoughts are as valid as anyone in this game m8

Don't flatter yourself. They really aren't.
psycho freak wrote:
ppl talk about changeing my ingame home to suit them

It may be your home, but it's my home as well. I'm not some carebear, I just happen not to suffer from the prejudices you do. Anyone without prejudices' opinion is worth more than someone with.

You only prove my point by instantly presuming I live in highsec.



Lol quote a few lines instead my whole statement you are full of yourself aint you lol

for your info every paying costomer veiws are valid wether you agree or not

all im saying is we dont want them in our back yard becouse theyer track record of whineing to ccp to get game changed in theyer fabour

just the same as they wouldnt wont us in theyer bavk yard as we try to kill them

yes i may be biased its based on carebares i known in game and seeing they countless whines and asking ccp to change game oO look another carebare whine thread in GD about hisec bumping lmfao and you want these types in losec lol

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
#93 - 2012-11-17 16:10:54 UTC
--warning-- nerd alert!! I keep records.

I've gotten tired of people posting their ideas based on numbers pulled from the air, or god knows where. So, I give you the HARD NUMBERS of what I've mined in the last 6 months. This is not bragging, as I am by no means the biggest miner I know; and I doubt they are even the biggest in the game. I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites. I tend to skip the spodumain more now than I did before, since I can maintain more belts and cycle less often, so that number should be a bit lower in the future.

I am certain someone is going to see this and say "omfg, this nullbear made 84 billion isk and he's complaining!?!?!" 84 at today's prices, it was really about 78 total along the way. More important, I have zero complaints about my isk. I (as are others in this thread) am pointing out the flaws in the process of what happens to the minerals in between the belts and the battlefield in the form of ships. Requiring null industry to do "mineral compression", with building, shipping and refining trash t1 modules, is asinine when these minerals could simply be sitting there in the belts that we own.


This brings me to one point from this thread that I would like to counter
Emma Royd wrote:

So....

Veldspar isn't in nullsec?
Ark is 37.5% trit
Crok is 25% trit
Ochre is 25% trit
Spod is 85% trit
Hem is 39.8% trit

There is plenty of trit in nullsec, just that miners naturally want the highest pay day for what they're mining rather than what is needed in the area.




Your numbers show a very simplistic view of ore and minerals. By looking at them, every miner would be flocking to the spod roids since it has all that trit, pyerite AND megacyte too!! And do you think people skip over the arkonor? The problem with your list is that the ore's volumes skew those numbers all over the place. The better way to look at it is what minerals come from the same volume of different ores, which of course leads to celeste's page. This shows why you are 100% insane if you mine spodumain for anything other than cycling the belt. The trade off for that 85% trit is that the overall mineral yield from the ore is peanuts.

Out of curiosity, I changed the 1708 spod block number to 9800 ( the approximate number of spod blocks I would have mined if I had cleared every belt, based on the amount of bistot mined) This increased the overall ore volume by 52%, which means I would have mined 573 hours instead the 377 which I actually did. The extra 52% would have increased my trit supply by 30%, Pyerite by 13.5% and megacyte by 63.8%. Now, I hear you screaming those numbers back at me in disbelief. But, that is with no increase in other minerals, and the overall effect of 52% more time would give only a 16.3% increase in isk (the evil common denominator). I like mining, yes you read that right, I like mining, but nobody is stupid enough to overlook the downsides of mining spod.

Compare these numbers, even fully clearing the belts, with minerals required to build ships and ammo. You can not miss the glaring differences.

I did spend some time talking with ccp veritas, at eve vegas about mining. He said he is/soon will be working on making mining less predictable and more fun. But wouldn't give any details. I asked him about his thoughts on ore and mineral balances. His cryptic response was that it would be part of his work. I really wish he would talk more about it and set us at ease on the whole issue, even if he leaves out the timetable.

TLDR
ships that we use and lose in null, need not be mined all over new eden, minerals sourced in jita, built in low sec, and shipped back to us in null. I have the mining ships, I have the BPOs, let me build them in a reasonable way without needing jump freighter trips for absurd amounts of extra or left over stuff.

...i should start skipping the gneiss too

the intel tool we deserve, the intel tool we need
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#94 - 2012-11-17 16:16:17 UTC
WilliamMays wrote:
I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites.

People don't seem aware of how mining in nullsec works.

They just imagine there's all this veldspar or stuff about in belts and we can pick whichever.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dave stark
#95 - 2012-11-17 17:22:30 UTC
This shows exactly what's in null sec grav sites (bit outdated with isk values and was written before the barge buff).

if you look at the most lucrative site, over 50% of that site is ABC ores alone.
conversely, there's 0% plaig, pyrox, and veld. as the large asteroid belt is pretty much just repeatedly mined and flipped, that means generally speaking null sec isn't mining plaig pyrox and veld. coincidentally those 3 ores are pretty much all i bother to mine in empire space right now. they produce a hell of a lot of trit/pyerite/mexallon and a token amount of nocxium.
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#96 - 2012-11-18 07:29:41 UTC
Granted my figures were a rather simplistic view of ore breakdown, but to counter what people were saying about there's not enough trit in nullsec.

I've not mined in nullsec for a while, and appreciate that some ores are region specific, but surely Veld is available everywhere, giving the best source of tritanium going.


Plus with fewer miners in nullsec, the roids will be bigger thus easier to mine, I dusted off my mining ships the other day in empire, 4 skiffs and an orca, and stripped clean 3 belts and was getting well hacked off with "The Asteroid is Depleted"

But who says nullsec is meant to be easy anyway?, with the best sources of Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite, Nocxium (depending on if you've got Hemorphite) plus the ability to compress ores with a rorqual, and a rorqual gives better bonus than an orca.


Just that nullsec miners naturally cherry pick where possible, why mine lower value ores when you can mine higher value ores.
Max Doobie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-11-18 08:00:04 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Devon Krah'tor wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
What would the impact of higher yield ores be? Not much.

To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost yields in lowsec. All this will mean is that you mine the same stuff to make the same ISK from hauling more minerals around. As you boost yields, all that happens is that you boost supply. If you boost supply, the value of the product goes down. This is basic economic theory.

To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost supply of anything.

To make stuff in lowsec more valuable, you would thus need to do what?



why increase demand naturally. However that is for pilots to take care of, not CCP. I am simply saying that a boost to mining efficiency would draw more indus to the *potential market in lowsec since it could now compete with the strip mining practices of hisec.

Not as well as moving all ores and ices but veldspar to low/null.



Nope.

They don't want to PVP.

They are in Highsec for a reason.

Move it all to Low/Null and you're forcing them to PVP. They will quit.

Miners quit, prices will go up and people will ***** about supply (because you PvPers don't want to mine).

Won't work.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#98 - 2012-11-18 08:03:51 UTC
Max Doobie wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Devon Krah'tor wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
What would the impact of higher yield ores be? Not much.

To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost yields in lowsec. All this will mean is that you mine the same stuff to make the same ISK from hauling more minerals around. As you boost yields, all that happens is that you boost supply. If you boost supply, the value of the product goes down. This is basic economic theory.

To make lowsec more valuable, you don't want to boost supply of anything.

To make stuff in lowsec more valuable, you would thus need to do what?



why increase demand naturally. However that is for pilots to take care of, not CCP. I am simply saying that a boost to mining efficiency would draw more indus to the *potential market in lowsec since it could now compete with the strip mining practices of hisec.

Not as well as moving all ores and ices but veldspar to low/null.



Nope.

They don't want to PVP.

They are in Highsec for a reason.

Move it all to Low/Null and you're forcing them to PVP. They will quit.

Miners quit, prices will go up and people will ***** about supply (because you PvPers don't want to mine).

Won't work.

When we lose all the easy-mode miners and prices go up as predicted, the demand will justify riskier mining.

A whole new crop of HTFU miners, which we like the sound of, will replace the easy-mode zombies.

How is this bad again?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#99 - 2012-11-18 08:07:55 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
WilliamMays wrote:
I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites.

People don't seem aware of how mining in nullsec works.

They just imagine there's all this veldspar or stuff about in belts and we can pick whichever.

Basically what you are saying is that out of 9000+ people in your alliance you can't find a 100 of them to go out and strip a system clean for your manufacturing side. If that was true it is pretty sad.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#100 - 2012-11-18 08:14:37 UTC
Schalac wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
WilliamMays wrote:
I am posting this here to show typical output from regular mining in the grav sites.

People don't seem aware of how mining in nullsec works.

They just imagine there's all this veldspar or stuff about in belts and we can pick whichever.

Basically what you are saying is that out of 9000+ people in your alliance you can't find a 100 of them to go out and strip a system clean for your manufacturing side. If that was true it is pretty sad.

With there being 24 timezones in the world and many players having actual lives, you'd be surprised how hard it would be to get 100 null-sec miners together at once in any alliance.

At least that's been my experience so far. Maybe there's some secret Industry V system where zombies farm that I don't know about. Shocked

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom