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miners and nullsec

Author
David Grogan
NerdHerd
#21 - 2011-10-17 01:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
Tau Cabalander wrote:
pooper stain wrote:
You mentioned Rorqual sitting at a POS? So now I have a ship with a Tractor beam bonus having to sit in a POS shield? So we have to use space for time and space for fueling, setup, and shutdown, just for 60mil isk and hour? I know ccp hates miners but wow!!
I own a Rorqual (on my second one actually).

When I first got a Rorqual, I thought I'd be out with the miners. Then I experienced how fast a small gang can destroy a carrier and dreadnought, and decided to keep the Rorqual within a forcefield.

The Rorqual has the offense of 1.5 Dominix (drones only), which really isn't much for a capital. It is also very weak to capacitor warfare, much more so than other capitals. At a minimum the Rorqual needs a much larger drone bay.

I've never used the capital tractor beam my alt trained for. Cry



dude u got 156km3 of hold space ............a rorqual full of cap 800's should not be capped out that easily
i have used the capital tractor beams... in npc 0.0 u often get haulers spawns that drop anything upto 100mil trit in one go................rorqual jumps into belt at range (to avoid being snagged on a roid even though its 5 km away)...(ccp please fix the roid bumping range so im not bumping off a roid 5km away) and tractors the wrecks over

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.

Zakaria Degmend
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2011-10-20 05:15:03 UTC
pooper stain wrote:
Usurpine wrote:
The problem with 0.0 mining for me is, ratting is so much more profitable that it cannot compete against mining even with abc ore. So why mining if you have the skills for ratting efficiently ?



And there is the Rub.... The system encourages people NOT to mine or Bot.

Why implement ships and huge skill trees to mining If there really don't want people to mine?

Maybe CCP wants the miners to purchese multiple accounts so that players are forced to form solo mining fleets to stay in the black. I mean with so many free minerals coming from loot drops and drones, why not just remove mining altoghether.
It is obvious that the economy needs these supposed minerals from loot and drones or CCP would not have put them in. So Miners where not mining enough or CCP just wanted to keep the isk/hour low on purpose (prob the latter).

They would be better off just removing the ships and skills altogther (since there kinda useless as is) and implementing a stationary harvestor like moon mining, But I guess that would take away the gankers fun and free kills.



We already know that CCP hates miners.
Winlet Dorn
Doomheim
#23 - 2011-10-20 15:58:08 UTC
JongBlood wrote:
Ore prices are low because everyone mines and it takes very little skill (player and toon) to shoot rocks.


True on the price and that everyone mines, but the "everyone" is more bots than actual people. If CCP got serious about bots (and why should they, they're paying accounts) and got rid of them, mineral prices would go up once you saw how many real people were actually out there blasting rocks and bringing minerals to market.
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#24 - 2011-10-20 17:29:56 UTC
The rorq... hmmm

The compression interface is a farce and needs to be fixed. Inputs, processes, and outputs should be able to be done form a single window. As it is now I am bouncing between 4 windows trying to keep the ore rolling along. The sad part is the different windows do not display the same data: case in point. You have 4 processes going, one finishes so you deliver it in the science and industry window. You put ore in the hold, and start a new process, but the production window shows all 4 lines as free... select one and it won't load because it tells you that line is busy. Its like a best guess as to which line is actually empty and which one is not. by the time you get it loaded 2 other lines have been delivered and you have wasted another cycle of your industrial module.

Lets not even get into why WH space cannot use the clone bay... and has been said, that fancy tractor beam with all the bonuses, unused because you are not going to risk a 2 bill ship in a belt. Gang assist modules... only get a bonus if the ship is running. sort of wastes them too... why not a passive mod that works like the orca, with the active mode giving you the better boosts is you want to be going through the fuel. I know someone envisioned the rorq sitting in the belt tracktoring cans to it and compressing them on the spot but this is just not reality. Rather its a good way to get the thing killed in no time.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#25 - 2011-10-20 17:51:36 UTC
pooper stain wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
mining is for pesants and slaves


Cry

Yeah... Not a lot of love for the miners. Especially since CCP made null sec mining is THE highest risk thing to do in the game and it has such low isk/hour ratio.

miners get:
slow ships
low dps
maybe a light tank
agility of a boat anchor
cap ship that can't move for 5 mins at a time
Cap ship can't carry combat ships
poor fitting options

The hunters get:
local
DS
Probes
cloaked ships
bubbles
warp scrams/disruptors
nice tanks
nice dps
and hot drops

I guess I just want some reason to pursue the risk. CCP needs to remove high end minerals from loot drops. Give us a reason to risk and force the null sec dwellers to put forth some risk and have indy fleets.

I've never flown a hulk or rorqual, so I wasn't aware that mining ships lacked Dscan ability or that miners couldn't see local. I also missed the part where it's considered an exploit for miners to fly with a combat escort or to have cloaky alts.
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#26 - 2011-10-20 17:58:59 UTC
yeah that dscan and local are broken on all mining vessels. Roll

I know everytime we show up in null the miners all scatter to thier little holes, I sure wish null had no local.Cool Afterall it should be that way! I mean who is providing this service anyway. but then that is another dicussion outside this forum
pooper stain
Pyrrhic-Victory
#27 - 2011-10-20 19:04:09 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
[I've never flown a hulk or rorqual, so I wasn't aware that mining ships lacked Dscan ability or that miners couldn't see local. I also missed the part where it's considered an exploit for miners to fly with a combat escort or to have cloaky alts.


Ughh I think you answered your own question in saying you have never flown a hulk or rorqual. Try it some time. Better yet take a hulk to lowsec for 2-3 days and try mining there. see how frustrating it becomes. Then at the end of that 3 days look at your wallet. Then come back and report your findings.Blink
Velicitia
XS Tech
#28 - 2011-10-20 19:28:06 UTC
pooper stain wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
[I've never flown a hulk or rorqual, so I wasn't aware that mining ships lacked Dscan ability or that miners couldn't see local. I also missed the part where it's considered an exploit for miners to fly with a combat escort or to have cloaky alts.


Ughh I think you answered your own question in saying you have never flown a hulk or rorqual. Try it some time. Better yet take a hulk to lowsec for 2-3 days and try mining there. see how frustrating it becomes. Then at the end of that 3 days look at your wallet. Then come back and report your findings.Blink


GP post is pointing out that whoever said the mining ships dont have D-Scan/local is wrong... Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Neerro
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-10-21 04:30:29 UTC
Dietrich VonMirat wrote:
pooper stain wrote:
Usurpine wrote:
The problem with 0.0 mining for me is, ratting is so much more profitable that it cannot compete against mining even with abc ore. So why mining if you have the skills for ratting efficiently ?



And there is the Rub.... The system encourages people NOT to mine or Bot.

Why implement ships and huge skill trees to mining If there really don't want people to mine?


That's silly. It's market economics.
If everyone stopped mining abc, the supply would drop, prices would rise, and people would do it again. The value of ore is dependent upon how many people are out there mining it.

If there's enough people mining that the value is too low for you, feel free to go do something else. The market will survive.


I isn't silly, it's a market issue that doesn't make sense. Imagine what would happen to energy companies if every time we went to work we also earned 200 gallons of all purpose fuel and somehow the energy industry was strangely without this power.

Ore's Price elasticity of demand is affected by the existence of substitutes. Substitutes tends to increase price elasticity eg. industrial materials gained from ratting tends to increase price elasticity of demand in mining market, making the market more volatile- at least it would if ratting wasn't completely superior - so the roles are reversed making ratting's substitute mining (filling in the gaps left by ratting) .
Then it should follow that ratting's market advantage be adjusted to well below mining's availability or values.
I don't see much of an alternative short of a mass movement to report and eliminate bots, if CCP won't do it on their own.
Price floors, increase or decrease in asteroids, or even higher mining yields per run would only temporarily fix this issue, after some time the market would ajust and return ore prices to their volume/value of our current time.

IN SHORT: It would appear that mining is a waste of time due to the market's structure pertaining to its yields. So it would follow that the structure should be modified in a manner that cannot be diluted by market movements in any permanent way.
xSilk Roadx
Full Auto Wrecking and Salvage
#30 - 2011-10-21 11:21:57 UTC
pooper stain wrote:
But when it comes to Null sec, The risks are crazy compared to the reward. Is it not our PVP overlords that scream "risk vs reward"? What is risker then a 2 bil Rorqual with 5 100+mil hulks playing the sitting duck in a null sec roid patch. Yet 60mil isk/hour is pathetic rewards.


You make some assumptions that are incorrect so I doubt you have ever mined in null sec.
Rorqual's always sit at towers, rarely if every are they used in belts. Their real value is in their ability to compress and of course bonuses.
If you are diligent, you will never lose a hulk in null sec. I've never lost a hulk in null, 4 years and counting...
Most people mine with multiple toons, when mining ABC's it's not hard to make 150-200 mil per hour with two bonus'd hulks.

pooper stain wrote:

You mentioned Rorqual sitting at a POS? So now I have a ship with a Tractor beam bonus having to sit in a POS shield?


You have a point. The tractor bonus should be removed and something useful put in its place. Perhaps a reduction in jump fuel required?


xSilk Roadx
Full Auto Wrecking and Salvage
#31 - 2011-10-21 11:38:26 UTC
pooper stain wrote:

-Mining ships are paper thin, sloooooo, lumbering, weak


Mining ships are everything they are meant to be.
Hulks are not so paper thin that it is possible to tank battleship rats long enough to kill the spawn.

pooper stain wrote:

-Orca is even worse in null / lowsec


Orca makes a great hauler (with web combo) where systems are cyno jammed.

pooper stain wrote:

-The rorqual is even more confusing, designed for only low / null it is supposed to take 5 miners jump into a site and then sit immobile for 5 mins in null with no means to defend its fleet (no combat ships in the hold??)


Rorquals always live at POS's only the stupid or ballsy actually use them in belts.

pooper stain wrote:

So I get that CCP says get friends to babysit you .....What pvp pilot in there right mind will babysit a mining fleet?? We all already know mining god mode hulks in null is one of the worst isk activities in the game. Why would miners split there meager earnings to have people babysit them. So here we have this Rorqual that can jump 5 miners only (no combat ships) into deep null, make himself a big target and pray no one comes into the system, why because with local, quick probes, easy DS finding miners is cake. To make matters worse the miners are easy pickens with only flee as there option, and with bubbles, and scrams it is too easy to pin and kill miners.


Nullsec miners are members of alliances therefore are afford some protection via intel channels and sovereignty.
Only stupid miners are easy pickings.. My corp will often kill reds who are after perceived easy kills, often providing juicy tears Lol

pooper stain wrote:

I just don't get it can someone help me understand the logic?


The logic is you have wrongly interpreted how these ships are actually used in practise.
pooper stain
Pyrrhic-Victory
#32 - 2011-10-21 12:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: pooper stain
xSilk Roadx wrote:
pooper stain wrote:

I just don't get it can someone help me understand the logic?


The logic is you have wrongly interpreted how these ships are actually used in practise.



I don't believe I mis-interpreted how the ship was designed to be used. Looking at the description and abilities of the ship it was designed to jump 5 hulks into null, provide bonuses while compressing, clone jump those hulk pilots to you in null, mine, GTFO when done. That on paper was what the rorqual was designed to do.

Yes in reality it is NOT used that way at all. WHY? cause its Big expensive easy target and everybody knows that (except CCP who obviously has never used there own designs What?) In reality the rorqual sits in pos shields and just compresses ore....Why even have the ship then. Can't we just make a pos module to do the same thing (since in essence thats what the rorq is i guess).

And Silk your right I have never taken my rorq into null, Im too scared. I have hulk mined in null but only in NPC null in an dead end system that I knew was not frequently traveled. I hated the fact I had to use a small pos to dump the ore in and use the pos refinerery (losing 25% in the process, despite wasting my time training the skill only to realize it does not work on pos modules grrrrr) because I didn't have the means of getting the ore to a station. All in all the isk was crap. I have never tried it again since it just was not worth it. (I averaged about 30mil an hour in null sec, My lvl 4 mission runners blow that away and I afk those things). I guess I was disapointed in all the prep work, sneaking into the system, constantly watching the DS and local, then getting the ore back to a market. only to be flabergasted by the lack of isk.

Over all I am disappointed that CCP does not take the miner seriously.
xSilk Roadx
Full Auto Wrecking and Salvage
#33 - 2011-10-22 01:15:09 UTC
pooper stain wrote:
xSilk Roadx wrote:
pooper stain wrote:

I just don't get it can someone help me understand the logic?


The logic is you have wrongly interpreted how these ships are actually used in practise.



I don't believe I mis-interpreted how the ship was designed to be used. Looking at the description and abilities of the ship it was designed to jump 5 hulks into null, provide bonuses while compressing, clone jump those hulk pilots to you in null, mine, GTFO when done. That on paper was what the rorqual was designed to do.

Yes in reality it is NOT used that way at all. WHY? cause its Big expensive easy target and everybody knows that (except CCP who obviously has never used there own designs What?) In reality the rorqual sits in pos shields and just compresses ore....Why even have the ship then. Can't we just make a pos module to do the same thing (since in essence thats what the rorq is i guess).

And Silk your right I have never taken my rorq into null, Im too scared. I have hulk mined in null but only in NPC null in an dead end system that I knew was not frequently traveled. I hated the fact I had to use a small pos to dump the ore in and use the pos refinerery (losing 25% in the process, despite wasting my time training the skill only to realize it does not work on pos modules grrrrr) because I didn't have the means of getting the ore to a station. All in all the isk was crap. I have never tried it again since it just was not worth it. (I averaged about 30mil an hour in null sec, My lvl 4 mission runners blow that away and I afk those things). I guess I was disapointed in all the prep work, sneaking into the system, constantly watching the DS and local, then getting the ore back to a market. only to be flabergasted by the lack of isk.

Over all I am disappointed that CCP does not take the miner seriously.


I do get your point re: what a rorqual was designed to do on paper. Don't forget eve is sandboxCool
It's quite natural that CCP dont get it right, then hopefully, after some time they balance the ships capabilities, which is yet to happen with the rorqual. The logistics of mining in NPC null are just far too risky for the pay off!

That said, I suggest if you want to put yours to use join a null sec alliance. Most alliances have an industrial back bone to support their pvp efforts. For example my mains live in null where we have a system upgraded, producing 4-5 hidden belts. We normally have a rorqual running bonus's 24/7 so it's easy to make 150-200mil per hour with two hulks. Hell I can mine a billion worth of high ends in a weekend.
Belrend Coregaul
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2011-10-25 03:01:04 UTC
JongBlood wrote:
Dietrich VonMirat wrote:
pooper stain wrote:
Usurpine wrote:
The problem with 0.0 mining for me is, ratting is so much more profitable that it cannot compete against mining even with abc ore. So why mining if you have the skills for ratting efficiently ?



And there is the Rub.... The system encourages people NOT to mine or Bot.

Why implement ships and huge skill trees to mining If there really don't want people to mine?


That's silly. It's market economics.
If everyone stopped mining abc, the supply would drop, prices would rise, and people would do it again. The value of ore is dependent upon how many people are out there mining it.

If there's enough people mining that the value is too low for you, feel free to go do something else. The market will survive.

Completely agree. Ore prices are low because everyone mines and it takes very little skill (player and toon) to shoot rocks. Saying this I have four accounts,two combat pilots, a maxed orc a pilot and a research/building pilot


Wrong. Prices are low because you get minerals from loot and drones in missions and make a ton more isk by doing so. Get refining skill up and a POS and suddenly just from ratting you can make the minerals to create your supercaps.

Mining is pointless. Highsec has little to no profit per hour and nullsec offers nothing to entice the risk.

Let's compare:
-PvE mission lvl 4. easy 10-30mil from salvage, bounties, and reward for mission. Loot can be turned into minerals for manufactoring for no risk. You fit a super tank with stable cap; afk while your drones kill everything. No risk.
-Nullsec/Lowsec ratting. 500mil+ BS rats to free kill and farm, random miners and other ratters to kill for extra loot and turn into minerals for your supercaps. Assault frigs can do this and make more isk/hour. The Risk in Assault frig=Minimal. Cloakies being the only thing to catch them.

-PvE Highsec Mining. Easy 10mil/hour with little to no risk(suicide gankers. Still more risk then PvE missions). We compete for quickly depleted but slowly regenerated rocks and have to constantly fly back to station to drop off ore if not with an alt orca. More active then the lvl 4 missions darn near.

-Nullsec/Lowsec mining. 60mil/hour, tremendous risk as ratters, passerthroughs and various others d-scan and see a hulk; it's straight to the belts for them to try for an easy kill. ABC ores profit is minimal. If paying for protection you're looking at maybe 30mil/hour. With incursions out giving players 1bil/day this is pathetic.

Now explain to me why mining is still a part of this game if you can "Mine" mission loot?
Stupidly ******** economic design.

My real issue is with these new 'incursions' that offer such a TREMENDOUS isk/hour/day reward with almost no risk due to RR fleets. F that. If miners can't get good isk because of this carebear bull giving players no loss of ship for HUGE income then remove remote rep mechanics and let ships be lost. If you wanna make a billion a day, be prepared to lose ships.

I mean a 300mil setup of a ship with 2x 100-200mil RR boats make enough to replace their ships 10 fold with no risk. But a hulk wants to make their max profit? They make 60mil/hr which during this hour it's probably lower because they have to keep fleeing to a safe spot everytime somebody passes through the system.

This entire ordeal is bullcrap and the fact that ANYONE sits there and has even a SMALL idea this is a good way for it to be needs to have their safety nets removed; lose their ships every 6 hours and then comeback and tell us miner pilots that having no safety or minimal isk income is OKAY.

Combat pilots should RELY on us. Not LAUGH at our income. We should be overshadowing them because we should hold the power over their ships.

EVE is designed with the idea that 'when you die, a clone takes your place'. So why not let the ships be destroyed more often? Stop giving people a way to survive for a year in 1 ship and make THOUSANDS more isk then a miner who produces their mods/ships.

I can't believe this is even a 'discussion'. It's a fact. Miners have it bad and we need an income increase, ESPECIALLY with incursions giving so much income.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#35 - 2011-10-26 11:13:13 UTC
Why not have more miners mining in nul? You force them all to move to nul... actually, entice them to move voluntarily. Say with rewards for mining nul ore.

Some sort of random spawns that will make them space rich? If that is all they are trying to do, become space rich... they would probably jump at the chance to mine in nul. The more ore mined in nul, the more chance pvp has to kill them. And the more items must be exported to trade hubs from nul.

May have to remove about 90 percent of the ore spawns in empire asteroid belts and ice fields, but with many more ppl mining expensive ore, supply might go up, prices down for minerals and everything else. And the new players can make a killing mining empire ore in frigates. Continuing as a miner would draw them to mining nul. Can this be tested on SiSi?
People's Republic ofChina
My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom
#36 - 2011-10-26 11:32:29 UTC
pooper stain wrote:
Usurpine wrote:
The problem with 0.0 mining for me is, ratting is so much more profitable that it cannot compete against mining even with abc ore. So why mining if you have the skills for ratting efficiently ?



And there is the Rub.... The system encourages people NOT to mine or Bot.

Why implement ships and huge skill trees to mining If there really don't want people to mine?

Maybe CCP wants the miners to purchese multiple accounts so that players are forced to form solo mining fleets to stay in the black. I mean with so many free minerals coming from loot drops and drones, why not just remove mining altoghether.
It is obvious that the economy needs these supposed minerals from loot and drones or CCP would not have put them in. So Miners where not mining enough or CCP just wanted to keep the isk/hour low on purpose (prob the latter).

They would be better off just removing the ships and skills altogther (since there kinda useless as is) and implementing a stationary harvestor like moon mining, But I guess that would take away the gankers fun and free kills.



The concept of mining itself is cool, the actual motions of it is very boring, unrewarding and tedious. And since mining IS a repetitive activity from IRL it's hard to make it not a repetitive activity in game without it not being mining anymore.
Elrianmk2
#37 - 2011-10-27 13:57:54 UTC
To be honest the move of Ice out of High sec if it is done will make a massive difference to low and null sec economics, basically all the ice belts will become major conflict points as those in barges hope to survive long enough to keep their alliances pos towers up as they will be primaries in every instance.

Incidentally we know CCP doesnt do industry, we have been waiting for about 5 years for a real industrial expansion, the rorq is nice but it wasnt an industrial expansion, niether was the addition of hulks but that being said im so glad i don't have to mine ABC's in a Domi or a geddon any more, man that was RSI waiting to happen.

The only solution to the over supply of mins in high sec is to massively cut back on loot table drops again and increase bounties, but lets be honest, CCP are not going to do that are they? Granted it may force more people into low sec to do industry, something they want, until they get primaried all the time and sod off back to mission running...

Sometimes "Meh" is an acceptable response.

Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2011-10-27 19:35:37 UTC
pooper stain wrote:


The hunters get:
local
.



How exactly is local a benefit to the hunters, and not the miners?
Gronn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2011-10-28 16:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gronn
David Grogan wrote:
lol why is it an general consensus that mining ships should be weak.

if i was a ship designer and builder in real life and i knew pirates were frequently harassing industrial ships i'd design a mining ship armed to the teeth and heavily tanked. i bet i'd sell lots more ships if they were like that.

one thing i liked about x3 terran conflict was freighters were actually quite hard to kill... they had huge tanks and could be armed to the teeth. It made it more challenging to kill or capture one. Even the mining ships could have a tough tank and decent weapons.


This is one of the issues with this ‘sandbox’ game. The ships in it are based on what the developers perceive as balanced. I, like David Grogan would create something a little different then what CCP defines as a role specific ship. Why can’t I have a tanked/armed mining ship? Why can’t I put a cruise missile launcher on a frigate? It’s a ‘sandbox’ as long as you conform to their preset standards…
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#40 - 2011-10-28 17:30:10 UTC
Gronn wrote:
It’s a ‘sandbox’ as long as you conform to their preset standards…


you have no choice to conform or not to.. like a real world law of physics, game rules just happen... you conform to gravity not by a conscious choice but because you live here.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

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