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AFK Miners Fail Economics Forever

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Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#41 - 2012-11-16 22:53:40 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:


You need a job at CCP.

Your name would henceforth be CCP Maslow.

+1 sir.



I promise if I ever end up switching from risk management to video game design I'll use that as my name.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2012-11-16 22:53:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Hey, in most other games mining is not this hideous farce we got in EvE.


You didnt mine asteroids in SWG...
Dave stark
#43 - 2012-11-16 22:56:56 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
So, AFKers, you fail economics forever.


ah i love you GCSE business students.

once your teacher has covered motivation theory, come back here and realise how amusing and incorrect you are.



Cool, I've studied business studies, economics and politics and on my management and motivation module i got 97% on the exam.

Let's look at a really basic motivation model shall we?

Quote:
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs


1. Physiological needs
The definition of physiological needs is quite obvious; they are the physical requirements for human survival. If these requirements are not met, the human body cannot function properly, and will ultimately fail. Physiological needs are thought to be the most important; they should be met first. Therefore, a human lacking food, love, esteem, or safety would consider the greatest of his/her needs to be food.

2. Safety needs
With their physical needs relatively satisfied, the individual's safety needs take precedence and dominate behavior. In the absence of physical safety – due to war, natural disaster, family violence, childhood abuse, etc. – people may (re-)experience post-traumatic stress disorder or transgenerational trauma. In the absence of economic safety – due to economic crisis and lack of work opportunities – these safety needs manifest themselves in ways such as a preference for job security, grievance procedures for protecting the individual from unilateral authority, savings accounts, insurance policies, reasonable disability accommodations, etc

3. Love and belonging
After physiological and safety needs are fulfilled, the third level of human needs is interpersonal and involves feelings of belongingness. The need is especially strong in childhood and can override the need for safety as witnessed in children who cling to abusive parents. Deficiencies within this level of Maslow's hierarchy – due to hospitalism, neglect, shunning, ostracism, etc. – can impact individual's ability to form and maintain emotionally significant relationships in general, such as friendship, intimacy and family

4. Esteem
All humans have a need to feel respected; this includes the need to have self-esteem and self-respect. Esteem presents the typical human desire to be accepted and valued by others. People often engage in a profession or hobby to gain recognition.

5. Self-actualization
This level of need refers to what a person's full potential is and the realization of that potential. Maslow describes this level as the desire to accomplish everything that one can, to become the most that one can be.



Being an expert on motivation theory yourself you'll know Maslow's Hierarchy of needs forms a pyramid and it is generally considered that you need to accomplish one level before you move onto the next, so I have numbered these in the order that they are. Where do you think AFK miners fit?


  • Physiological needs? Mining sustains their ability to play EVE so yup, got this stage.
  • Safety? With the new mining barge buffs miners have been safer then ever before. So yup.
  • Love and belonging? Well there is a lot of animosity towards miners, but that doen't mean they can't have friends. On the other hand how do you make friends when you're afk? I'll give afk miners the benefit of the doubt on this one.
  • Esteem? No-one respects miners, so nope don't get this stage.
  • Self-Actualisation? You really think AFK mining is the upper limit of your potential as an EVE player? If so I pity you.


Interesting though, turns out afk miners are rubbish at motivational theory as well as economic theory.



considering the entire of the OP hinges on physiological needs, give or take based on how you translate this stuff to the game... you pretty much proved my point.

must admit, it's been 7 years since i've seen any of that. oh the horrible memories.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#44 - 2012-11-16 23:03:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Hey, in most other games mining is not this hideous farce we got in EvE.


You didnt mine asteroids in SWG...

Nice one.

Vaerah:

I have to admit I don't play a lot of games that feature mining as a "profession."

So to maximize my limited experience of other games' mining, let's look at Skyrim:

1) Go into dungeon.

2) Fight your way to some ore.

3) Harvest it for no longer than 30 seconds for a scant few GP worth of ore.

4) Leave the dungeon to either forge something or sell the refined ore.

Now what does this indicate?

In Skyrim:

1) Mining is not a profession, it's a brief activity.

2) It involves legitimate combat nearly every time.

3) Yield is low.

4) Mining logistics are time-consuming.

I'm sorry but that's all the experience I have with mining in other games.

So in Skyrim, how is mining (as an activity) "more interesting" than it is in Eve Online?

My answer would be that the risk that's involved combined with the design of immersion-by-necessity raise the arbitrary value of the goods acquired and therefore the activity as a whole.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#45 - 2012-11-16 23:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Kitchner
Dave stark wrote:



considering the entire of the OP hinges on physiological needs, give or take based on how you translate this stuff to the game... you pretty much proved my point.

must admit, it's been 7 years since i've seen any of that. oh the horrible memories.



Umm no the OP's point is that the more you mine the less the materialsyou mine are worth. Then you all whinge for more yield to mine even more and then you all whinge that your yield isnt enough to make money etc etc.

So actually what he's arguing is that you're not fulfilling your physiological needs by mining as in the long run it means miners will put themselves out of pocket.

If he had actually mentioned motivational theory like I had he'd have also pointed out that an AFK miner is so far away from self actualisation you have to question why they are doing the mining in the first place.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#46 - 2012-11-16 23:15:15 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?



Oh thats easy you can find it on EVE online. Just go mine in a system where James 315 is, he's the most compelling mining content CCP have added in ages Cool

Never not double post.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#47 - 2012-11-16 23:18:14 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?



Oh thats easy you can find it on EVE online. Just go mine in a system where James 315 is, he's the most compelling mining content CCP have added in ages Cool

Never not double post.

I kind of thought the dessie buff/Tier 3 BCs were a bit of a better deal than bumping is, to be quite frank.

Removing the ability of GSCs to disrupt smartbombs would go a long way toward the achieving the goal we share of compelling mining content, though, I think.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Dave stark
#48 - 2012-11-16 23:25:42 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Dave stark wrote:



considering the entire of the OP hinges on physiological needs, give or take based on how you translate this stuff to the game... you pretty much proved my point.

must admit, it's been 7 years since i've seen any of that. oh the horrible memories.



Umm no the OP's point is that the more you mine the less the materialsyou mine are worth. Then you all whinge for more yield to mine even more and then you all whinge that your yield isnt enough to make money etc etc.

So actually what he's arguing is that you're not fulfilling your physiological needs by mining as in the long run it means miners will put themselves out of pocket.

If he had actually mentioned motivational theory like I had he'd have also pointed out that an AFK miner is so far away from self actualisation you have to question why they are doing the mining in the first place.


it does, because he assumes isk is the motivating factor. which, it isn't.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-11-16 23:29:48 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

considering the entire of the OP hinges on physiological needs, give or take based on how you translate this stuff to the game... you pretty much proved my point.

must admit, it's been 7 years since i've seen any of that. oh the horrible memories.



Umm no the OP's point is that the more you mine the less the materialsyou mine are worth. Then you all whinge for more yield to mine even more and then you all whinge that your yield isnt enough to make money etc etc.

So actually what he's arguing is that you're not fulfilling your physiological needs by mining as in the long run it means miners will put themselves out of pocket.

If he had actually mentioned motivational theory like I had he'd have also pointed out that an AFK miner is so far away from self actualisation you have to question why they are doing the mining in the first place.

Self actualization as a character or as a person trying to use a character in a game for gain with minimal effort? If the former than you have a point. If the latter then it would seem the more important part of the equation is the activity happening away from the keyboard.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#50 - 2012-11-16 23:35:54 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
If he had actually mentioned motivational theory like I had he'd have also pointed out that an AFK miner is so far away from self actualisation you have to question why they are doing the mining in the first place.

Now that you mention it ... hm.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#51 - 2012-11-16 23:40:29 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Self actualization as a character or as a person trying to use a character in a game for gain with minimal effort? If the former than you have a point. If the latter then it would seem the more important part of the equation is the activity happening away from the keyboard.



Self actualisation as a player though wouldn't just be "can they mine with the minimum effort?" it would be "Can they be the very best that is physically possible for them to be?"

If you afk mine in EVE and the answer to that question is "Yes, I am the very best AFK miner I can be and thats all my potential is in this game" then I do genuinely feel sorry for you.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#52 - 2012-11-16 23:43:54 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Self actualization as a character or as a person trying to use a character in a game for gain with minimal effort? If the former than you have a point. If the latter then it would seem the more important part of the equation is the activity happening away from the keyboard.

Self actualisation as a player though wouldn't just be "can they mine with the minimum effort?" it would be "Can they be the very best that is physically possible for them to be?"

If you afk mine in EVE and the answer to that question is "Yes, I am the very best AFK miner I can be and thats all my potential is in this game" then I do genuinely feel sorry for you.

According to James 315, many miners aspire to be the best at mining, aka, somewhat similar to the tireless "bot".

Of course, bot-aspirant behavior is prohibited under the Code, for the good of all the mining community.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-11-16 23:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Self actualization as a character or as a person trying to use a character in a game for gain with minimal effort? If the former than you have a point. If the latter then it would seem the more important part of the equation is the activity happening away from the keyboard.



Self actualisation as a player though wouldn't just be "can they mine with the minimum effort?" it would be "Can they be the very best that is physically possible for them to be?"

If you afk mine in EVE and the answer to that question is "Yes, I am the very best AFK miner I can be and thats all my potential is in this game" then I do genuinely feel sorry for you.

Again, that is it you limit your actualization to the role of the character. If I can do something else more meaningful outside of game while gaining inside of the game that from a motivation standpoint could enrich both activities.

But if all you care about is achieving your best character potential so far as isk earning, and your character is not dedicated to mining (in which case AFK mining in no way differentiates from ATK mining in regard to possible income generation and you are achieving your potential anyways), you wouldn't be mining anyways. But really, who cares about efficiency?
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#54 - 2012-11-16 23:55:24 UTC
Removed some off topic posts. Keep it on topic please. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-11-17 00:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Sisohiv
Darth Gustav wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Hey, in most other games mining is not this hideous farce we got in EvE.


You didnt mine asteroids in SWG...

Nice one.

Vaerah:

I have to admit I don't play a lot of games that feature mining as a "profession."

So to maximize my limited experience of other games' mining, let's look at Skyrim:

1) Go into dungeon.

2) Fight your way to some ore.

3) Harvest it for no longer than 30 seconds for a scant few GP worth of ore.

4) Leave the dungeon to either forge something or sell the refined ore.

Now what does this indicate?

In Skyrim:

1) Mining is not a profession, it's a brief activity.

2) It involves legitimate combat nearly every time.

3) Yield is low.

4) Mining logistics are time-consuming.

I'm sorry but that's all the experience I have with mining in other games.

So in Skyrim, how is mining (as an activity) "more interesting" than it is in Eve Online?

My answer would be that the risk that's involved combined with the design of immersion-by-necessity raise the arbitrary value of the goods acquired and therefore the activity as a whole.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?


The only other games I ever played where harvesting was embedded in the game was Saga of Ryzom now just called Ryzom. It was an Indi game that bankrupted. The other being Perpetuum. I've said before, if people really just wanted to Mine, harvest and manufacture, Perpetuum is a good game. Sadly it's PvP premised and none happens. So you will be making bots that will never get used. It made the same mistake EVE made. It built huge frontiers and forced everyone through exact pipes to get to them so it became a game of choke point farming.

I didnt include SWG in my list because it has a unique system yet to be duplicated with the dynamic stats on static ores.
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#56 - 2012-11-17 00:06:37 UTC
Buddy of mine with 4 toons semi afk mines for over a billion a week... while he studies for tests for classes. He isnt minding it! Lol

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#57 - 2012-11-17 00:07:47 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

You really think all those subs won't change status if mining gets an "interestingness" buff? You really think they'll be excited?

Sometimes, Vaerah, I don't see what the points of your posts are.


So, you still play a game made by a company that in your opinion keeps the worst mining implementation ever only because of wallet preservation?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#58 - 2012-11-17 00:08:20 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Hey, in most other games mining is not this hideous farce we got in EvE.


You didnt mine asteroids in SWG...

Nice one.

Vaerah:

I have to admit I don't play a lot of games that feature mining as a "profession."

So to maximize my limited experience of other games' mining, let's look at Skyrim:

1) Go into dungeon.

2) Fight your way to some ore.

3) Harvest it for no longer than 30 seconds for a scant few GP worth of ore.

4) Leave the dungeon to either forge something or sell the refined ore.

Now what does this indicate?

In Skyrim:

1) Mining is not a profession, it's a brief activity.

2) It involves legitimate combat nearly every time.

3) Yield is low.

4) Mining logistics are time-consuming.

I'm sorry but that's all the experience I have with mining in other games.

So in Skyrim, how is mining (as an activity) "more interesting" than it is in Eve Online?

My answer would be that the risk that's involved combined with the design of immersion-by-necessity raise the arbitrary value of the goods acquired and therefore the activity as a whole.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?


The only other games I ever played where harvesting was embedded in the game was Saga of Ryzom now just called Ryzom. It was an Indi game that bankrupted. The other being Perpetuum. I've said before, if people really just wanted to Mine, harvest and manufacture, Perpetuum is a good game. Sadly it's PvP premised and none happens. So you will be making bots that will never get used. It made the same mistake EVE made. It built huge frontiers and forced everyone through exact pipes to get to them so it became a game of choke point farming.

I didnt include SWG in my list because it has a unique system yet to be duplicated with the dynamic stats on static ores.

I just want to be clear though, I'm interested in interesting mining content.

What would you say makes Perpetuum's mining system "interesting"?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#59 - 2012-11-17 00:09:23 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

You really think all those subs won't change status if mining gets an "interestingness" buff? You really think they'll be excited?

Sometimes, Vaerah, I don't see what the points of your posts are.


So, you still play a game made by a company that in your opinion keeps the worst mining implementation ever only because of wallet preservation?

I'm sorry what?

I play Eve to blow people up.

The size of my wallet isn't a factor.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#60 - 2012-11-17 00:15:43 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Hey, in most other games mining is not this hideous farce we got in EvE.


You didnt mine asteroids in SWG...

Nice one.

Vaerah:

I have to admit I don't play a lot of games that feature mining as a "profession."

So to maximize my limited experience of other games' mining, let's look at Skyrim:

1) Go into dungeon.

2) Fight your way to some ore.

3) Harvest it for no longer than 30 seconds for a scant few GP worth of ore.

4) Leave the dungeon to either forge something or sell the refined ore.

Now what does this indicate?

In Skyrim:

1) Mining is not a profession, it's a brief activity.

2) It involves legitimate combat nearly every time.

3) Yield is low.

4) Mining logistics are time-consuming.

I'm sorry but that's all the experience I have with mining in other games.

So in Skyrim, how is mining (as an activity) "more interesting" than it is in Eve Online?

My answer would be that the risk that's involved combined with the design of immersion-by-necessity raise the arbitrary value of the goods acquired and therefore the activity as a whole.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?


Entropia Online, Istaria (expecially the latter, it requires some extensive digging). It's still not *awesome sauce* to do, but at least you can die or be prevented from mining in a number of ways.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials