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A Great Experiment

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Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
#41 - 2012-11-16 13:17:19 UTC
To the OP:

EVE would become instead of spreadsheets with spaceships, would just become spreadsheets.

Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#42 - 2012-11-16 14:45:53 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Would more people log in to not shoot other players or what?


You're a quick one. Added more on-topic content to my post while you were responding.

But i'll elaborate. I think EVE works best as an ecosystem, and if it were too much of anything it would be bad. Same also applies to those who think PvP should be all the game is about.


Agreed but there are plenty of vocal people in GD who are willing to flame you for that opinion.

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#43 - 2012-11-16 14:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dar Manic
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
You confuse casual and hardcore with pvp and pve. They are not the same thing.

People who can play the pvpve way are few. For some the pve gets in the way of pvp and off they go playing games like COD, while for others the pvp gets in the way of their pve and off they go.

Any company that simply favors the pvpve only route will fail. You need a way to include one of the other two (bigger) groups. Now eve would be difficult for the pvp only types for two main reasons. 1. From what I read, the pvp is a little too slow paced (compared to COD which allows a person to jump right back in every time they die), and 2. For most it won't be profitable and so they will quickly find themselves broke and thus unable to continue to pvp.

So that leaves the pve'ers for which you need to create a "safe" pocket for them. Such is high sec. It can't be too safe or the pvpve'ers will complain. See, the majority of them are pvp'ers who prefer to engage in pvp with another person who is already engaged in pve and call it pvpve when really pvpve simply means that the two (pvp and pve) are not separate from each other but is rather tied all into one. The fact that two ships can show up at the same belt and engage in three way fight is what makes it pvpve.


EVE isn't COD. COD is ****, EVE isn't.

EVE isn't a shooter, it's an MMO.

EVE isn't for 'nade spammer and noob tuber kiddies, it's for grown ups that can read (hence why there's so very much to read).

In fact, EVE seems like the kind of game that wouldn't appeal to the wider COD audience, which is great - it means less silly twats overall.

What is the difference between a hardcore gamer and a casual gamer, btw?

The difference is when they lose - a casual gamer can lose a match and not give a crap. A so-called "hardcore" gamer usually gets their panties in a twist about it and starts making "it was [insert random game mechanic or internet fault here] fault" excuses.


Wow, you hear that? That's the sound of the point of the post flying way over your head.


Point was that pvp does not equal hardcore and pve does not equal casual. That there are three types of games (pvp, pve and pvpve) and that the pvpve group is a small one and so games to to cater in favor of one of the other two.

IMO, hardcore is someone who prefers to game over other forms of past time while a casual prefers to game when there is nothing else to do.

CCP keeps this game running, the players (with the help of CCP) bring the game world to life. As long as CCP continues to make money, they can continue to keep the game running. The question is, what % of subs are people who are casual and what % of subs are people who are hardcore by the definition stated above? I don't know.

What I do know is that high sec is far more active than low which leaves me to believe that there are more subscribers that favor pve than subscribers that favor pvp. Or at least more that spend most of their time with the pve component whether they favor it or not.


So what would happen if pvp were removed? Well, I think more people would convert to missioning, ratting, killing WH npc's, incursions, etc. It's not like all that exists are pvp corps and indy corps and if you remove pvp all that are left are indy corps with nobody to sell their goods to. If there is too much supply, the value drops and sell orders take too long to get fulfilled. People will see that other things like missioning is where the isk is at and so people will go there. Enough so that the demand for ammo and equipment increases (along with the decrease in suppliers due to the converting) until you get a balance once again.

Nope, if that was the case, "balance" will never be achieved before the major loss of subs. Eve is unlike other MMOs where everything is seeded and 'gears' drops are like peanuts and when you die you're magically reappear somewhere with all your clothes and shiny stuff intact.

Removing pvp will be detrimental to the flow of economy, huge amount of modules, ships and other things were imported, still and will be imported from hisec to different areas of the game. There is just not enough losses in hisec to compensate for this. The circulation is the way it is right now and unlike other MMOs solely because when you lose something in Eve, you lose it forever, there are no magic unicorns there that'll give you your stuff back. This is what makes production and consumption rate the way it is now. This is a sandbox, you kill pvp, you kill the game.

There is also a main difference between pve-ers/hiseccers/carebears or w/e to nullsec/wh/lowsec inhabitants. If you remove all the industrialists in hisec, null/wh/lowsec players will come and replace them and do the production instead. So regardless; the cycle keeps running. How about the other way around? If you remove the pvpers, tell me this, honestly, will the hiseccers/carebears start shooting each other up? I'm pretty sure they won't, they're most likely just gonna quit the game, with the most likely cause that the economy will stop running due to influx of supply and not enough losses to compensate for players to keep doing production, mining will die because heck, no one's going to be building anything.


TL;DR stealth meaning:

only Null sex players matter. Eve doesn't need anyone else.

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-11-16 15:42:10 UTC
Thing is, currently most ship losses (deaths) occur in PvP. But in other MMOs, there are a lot of PvE deaths, which are few and far apart in EVE. I don't believe I've ever been blown up in an L4. By comparison, I died multiple times in PvE in most other MMOs.

I vividly remember having my butt handed to be more than once by trolls and goblins in Darkfall (PvP game with full loot on death). Same thing in most other games. Even carebear games like WoW and GW2, I died quite a bit in PvE, usually 1-4 times per play session. Now, you could argue that the reason I died so much is because dying really doesn't matter. But the truth is, sometimes it is unavoidable. For example, you fight an NPC, he gets low on health and runs for help, and manages to get it, you end up fighting 2 NPCs, and a patrol comes from around the corner, and now it's 3+ NPCs, with respawns behind you, and you die. It happens.

Now, would EVE REQUIRE (note capital letters) PvP if there was a significant ship loss from PVE? Shocked Think about it. I'm thinking probably not. The economy would be just fine. 60% of players are carebearing it up in high sec, and that means 60% would routinely be losing ships to PvE. The game could survive just fine on that. Crafters would be happy. Mission runners/plexers would be happy because combat would actually have to be interesting, interactive and challenging. Etc., etc.

So, "EVE is a PvP game" isn't strictly speaking required for the game to survive. Don't get me wrong, I feel PvP (especially world PvP) is absolutely mandatory in every MMO. For example, Guild Wars 2 lacks actual world PvP, and it totally ruins the game for a lot of folks, myself included. But I'd say there's definite room for both PvE and PvP in EVE. In fact, I would go as far as to say that too much focus on PvP and not enough focus on PvE is hurting the game.

If they improved combat mechanics and introduced interesting AI to fight against, even if it resulted in a loss of a ship sometimes, I feel the net result would be better. Imagine missions where you don't fight 2907841987 ships at once, but where you fight 2-3 smaller ships, or 1 ship your size. But the AI makes that fight actually difficult. Where you have to act and react, plan and counter as needed. Instead of just going F1-F(x) with your big toe and watching the pretty explosions while you are having dinner.

Also, someone mentioned DUST for PC as possible "release" for PvP within EVE, and introducing the pacifist era into the game. I actually think you might be right. But only if death is handled the way it is in most other FPS games. That is, you respawn and go about your business. If it's handled the same way as in EVE with ships, it'll suffer the same fate as EVE PvP with ships. Though I would be interested to see if player skill will play a larger role than it does in EVE, where character skill overshadows all.
Dave stark
#45 - 2012-11-16 15:51:59 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Thing is, currently most ship losses (deaths) occur in PvP. But in other MMOs, there are a lot of PvE deaths, which are few and far apart in EVE. I don't believe I've ever been blown up in an L4. By comparison, I died multiple times in PvE in most other MMOs.


before you even go any further; the reason for that is most other mmos are based around pve activity being the bread and butter of the product.
that generally isn't so with eve.

your comparison to other mmo mobs running for help, or patrols etc. that's just the player being ******** rather than other game's pve being "harder" or anything. letting a mob run for help instead of using a snare, or an execute ability is like not shooting the scrambling rats first and then getting popped because you couldn't warp out.

it demonstrates a significant difference in attitudes. in eve when you die, you lose everything so people give a damn when they engage an enemy and will spend that extra 5 mins reading up on the more intricate parts of the game because 5 mins reading, is better than trying to replace a ship they lost because they didn't spend that extra 5 mins.
conversely in other mmo games your death is slight gear degradation that can be remedied by clicking "repair" at a vendor in town. hence people just don't give a **** about the intricacies of the game.

when your playerbase are ones that don't care about the intricacies, and when those intricacies are costing you subscriptions you're forced to dumb down the game. thankfully most of the players in eve play it for the intricacies and love the game for it so ccp keep putting them in. sure it's going to force away the hordes of mindless players that wow feeds on like some kind of leech but hey, let wow keep them.

i honestly hope ccp stick to a small quality playerbase, than try and cater to every one to bring in as much cash as possible. i loved warcraft when it first came out however now it's a shadow of it's former self and i'm embarrassed by what it has become.
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-11-16 15:54:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Nexus Day wrote:


But that is the question for all games, how do you keep the casuals and the hardcores both happy?


I hardly see how being casual means you don't like PvP. Although ironically, CCP's removal of can-flipping and introduction of global theft flagging killed the best way to find PvP in under an hour on one account all while attempting to make the game more casual friendly. I'm seriously thinking quitting because the alternative (elitist douchebags, 4 hour gatecamps/roams/station camps that end in ganks, blobs, drops or just nothing at all) to high-sec shenanigans is so dismal.

Which brings me to this:

Dave stark wrote:


you don't.
**** the casuals. every game that has catered to casuals has gone to the dogs.


"Casual" gets thrown a lot to imply you don't play the game religiously 8+hours a night. Okay, fine, but if you're smart and social (social is always the hardest part) you can still accomplish a lot in said casual timeframe. Most "casual" whines tend to be about wanting to have a shortcut tossed their way. And when does happens, it tends to **** off everybody who did do the long and hard work, including the real casuals who took longer at it by having less time in the beginning.

Which would be more infuriating? Having a 48-hr goal you obtained after two weekends of dedicated 12-hour sessions given for free in a patch the next day, or if it were the same goal that took you 24 weeks where you only had 2 hours each week to play?

The kicker to all this, of course, is that once the "Casuals" get all their shortcuts, they complain there's nothing to do anymore and bail.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2012-11-16 16:00:52 UTC
I know exactly what would happen because it has been done before.

The industrial sector will be gutted as people no longer replace their ships. This in turn impacts the miners who cant sell their goods and the goods they do sell will be at rock bottom prices as everyone desperatly tries to undercut eachother for that rare sale. The same will happen to the entire resource market. For a while ships and mods will become very cheap as supply far out strips demand.

In the long term, due to nobody spending their isk on much we will see huge stockpiles of isk resulting in inflation everywhere. The few industrialists that havent quit will see lots of isk for items but the sales are so low they will still only be making a fraction of what used to be possible.
Dave stark
#48 - 2012-11-16 16:05:50 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Dave stark wrote:


you don't.
**** the casuals. every game that has catered to casuals has gone to the dogs.


"Casual" gets thrown a lot to imply you don't play the game religiously 8+hours a night. Okay, fine, but if you're smart and social (social is always the hardest part) you can still accomplish a lot in said casual timeframe. Most "casual" whines tend to be about wanting to have a shortcut tossed their way. And when does happens, it tends to **** off everybody who did do the long and hard work, including the real casuals who took longer at it by having less time in the beginning.

Which would be more infuriating? Having a 48-hr goal you obtained after two weekends of dedicated 12-hour sessions given for free in a patch the next day, or if it were the same goal that took you 24 weeks where you only had 2 hours each week to play?

The kicker to all this, of course, is that once the "Casuals" get all their shortcuts, they complain there's nothing to do anymore and bail.


no, i define casuals as people that don't actually want to learn the game and just want to be handed everything on a plate.
play time has nothing to do with it.

neither of those situations are infuriating to begin with.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#49 - 2012-11-16 16:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
Dave stark wrote:
no, i define casuals as people that don't actually want to learn the game


And let me guess, the proper way to play the game is to give up on industry and join the PvP players who'd rather kill defenseless industry players than eachother?

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-11-16 16:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Bane Necran wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
no, i define casuals as people that don't actually want to learn the game


And let me guess, the way to play the game is to give up on industry and join the PvP players who'd rather kill defenseless industry players than eachother?


Or....they use their wealth and ability to build PvP ships to hire/equip PvPers to kill other industry players so they have free control of the markets and resources?

Go out to the far end of NPC null or even deep lowsec with a pure combat PvP toon and no logistics or production ability to resupply or replace stuff. You find out really quick how badly combat pilots need those "useless" profession types.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2012-11-16 16:10:24 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
no, i define casuals as people that don't actually want to learn the game


And let me guess, the proper way to play the game is to give up on industry and join the PvP players who'd rather kill defenseless industry players than eachother?


We kill industrialists for the isk. This has been said so many times I realy don't know why we have to keep saying it.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#52 - 2012-11-16 16:17:18 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Or....they use their wealth and ability to build PvP ships to hire/equip PvPers to kill other industry players so they have free control of the markets and resources?


The average hisec industry corp is too busy fending off the hisec alts of bored people in 0.0 to concern themselves with anything else.

That's really the problem at the heart of it all. EVE PvP players generally don't want to fight among themselves like you see in other MMOs, they're obsessed with killing 'carebears'. A lot of new players even think that's all EVE PvP is. Killing carebears should be a detail not the central theme.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Dave stark
#53 - 2012-11-16 16:20:13 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
no, i define casuals as people that don't actually want to learn the game


And let me guess, the proper way to play the game is to give up on industry and join the PvP players who'd rather kill defenseless industry players than eachother?


i'm a miner, so i'll let you have a guess at my answer. i like guessing games.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#54 - 2012-11-16 16:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
Dave stark wrote:
i'm a miner, so i'll let you have a guess at my answer. i like guessing games.


Well i'm not sure what you meant, then.

Are there people who have a hard time learning about mining, and those are the casuals you meant?

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-11-16 16:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Bane Necran wrote:
Karrl Tian wrote:
Or....they use their wealth and ability to build PvP ships to hire/equip PvPers to kill other industry players so they have free control of the markets and resources?


The average hisec industry corp is too busy fending off the hisec alts of bored people in 0.0 to concern themselves with anything else.

That's really the problem at the heart of it all. EVE PvP players generally don't want to fight among themselves like you see in other MMOs, they're obsessed with killing 'carebears'. A lot of new players even think that's all EVE PvP is. Killing carebears should be a detail not the central theme.


Again...they use their wealth and ability to build PvP ships to hire/equip PvP'ers to fight where they can't. Said bored null-alt is going to move on when every time he logs on he's camped into his station by 15+ people who follow his ass around and guard his targets so he can't get to the juicy indy corp because as the quote from Metalocalypse goes, "Hey, that's my bread and butter you're (guitar cord)ing with."

Plenty of Indy corps have figured this out and some even keep their own security wing. It's the "indy (mining) only" types who exist just to shovel isk into their wallets with passive orca boosts that get labeled carebears and preyed on.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#56 - 2012-11-16 16:29:52 UTC
CCP, could you maybe help us here with some numbers?

Total values destroyed in game over a week (or some other time period)
Percent of that total loss that occurs in high sec
Percent of that total loss that occurs due to criminal activity in high sec.

Thank you.

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Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#57 - 2012-11-16 16:38:56 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Plenty of Indy corps have figured this out and some even keep their own security wing. It's the "indy (mining) only" types who exist just to shovel isk into their wallets with passive orca boosts that get labeled carebears and preyed on.


I wouldn't say plenty. Plenty of hisec industry corps give up on their dreams and close the corp after being targeted by bored 0.0 players. But the minority which do survive learn to do things like that.

With some luck the coming changes which will make it easier for hisec industry corps to hire mercenaries to aid them will help, but still, PvP players could use some new hobbies.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-11-16 16:41:17 UTC
Couple things bother me as per usual in this kind of thread, this is a game so when I read:

-value
-economy
-inflation
-deflation

And other funky stuff I get clearly disappointed because:

-it's a game
-you're supposed to have fun
-it's not a job (if some think so they should see an RL doctor and discuss with about this)
-it's a sandbox: you can choose how you play and there are/should be tools to help you achieve your gaming style
-should be distressing and fun, not the other way around
-it's not wall street

Then you log on forums and read "miners" "carebears" "plex CCP!! inflation/deflation" and other funky stuff I some times believe some people really live in another world than I do, seems sometimes those live the game too seriously and this is when it becomes clearly disappointing and unpleasant to play an internet game and space pixels with such individuals.

brb
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#59 - 2012-11-16 16:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP, could you maybe help us here with some numbers?

Total values destroyed in game over a week (or some other time period)
Percent of that total loss that occurs in high sec
Percent of that total loss that occurs due to criminal activity in high sec.

Thank you.


Tippia will be with you in a moment.

However I can tell you that 273 Freighters and 7 Jump Freighters have been killed since operation Pinata started with over 2 tillion isk worth of goods taken or destroyed.
Mr Pragmatic
#60 - 2012-11-16 20:17:51 UTC
I think prices on everything would drop dramatically and bitter "industrial" vets would complain about the ease of access for newer players to build efficiently.

Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness.  -Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling.