These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What is the lure for lo and null?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-11-14 17:24:46 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:


For me the lure of null is that everything makes sense there.

When I lived in high I mined and manufactured but I wasn't really sure why, it make ISK, which was nice, but I only ever made what was most profitable.

Mining was boring, I'd just browse the web AFK.

I ninja'd a few dudes, that was the PVP, some of them got pretty pissed, there was no real reason to.

Null, by contrast, is amazing.

When you're in an alliance everything makes sense. I mine, PI, and manufacture to support the corp, we need more fuel blocks? I'm on it. Need more tackling rifters to fight our enemies? I'll make some.

and one day your leader just says "alliance is leaving to XXX region. You don't like it -> get out" and all what have you done to help your alliance gets its real sence Cool

Everything depends on people around. You will see it one day. Like many of those who lived in null and left it.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#62 - 2012-11-14 17:26:10 UTC
Where hi sec has catharsis low sec has adrenaline.

Where hi sec has check the box completion, low sec has accomplishment.

Where hi sec has grind, lo sec has objectives.

Where hi sec has partnerships, lo sec has team work.

At some point in playing a game on easy, cleanly passing level after level, you have to ask yourself if there is something more. Eventually you turn up the difficulty, and in most games you get waxed the first time. You weren't ready. But over time you build up your skill, now with less of a security blanket and without even realizing it, you are becoming more skilled until you become triumphant at the higher difficulty. All the while the challenge and setbacks have given you a sense of investment in the game you never had before, thus making your victory even greater.

You must ask yourself if you like easy, or if you like challenge. It isn't impossible, clearly people have great fun every day doing it. It also is not easy, that's the point. The lure to lo/null sec is looking challenge in the eye and not backing down. It's the realization that everything in the game is a tool to be used to be victorious. It's the thought of win or lose, gorram it I tried.

Have you ever beaten a game on a super hard difficulty then watched someone whittle their time on easy? It is almost painful. "There is so much more!" you cry, but many do not listen. Easy is there for some people. Hi sec serves a very valid purpose. But never forget, there is MORE.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Silver Plated
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-11-14 17:45:32 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Ritsum wrote:
Meh Nerf High-sec all you want... It is still the place I will play since I don't enjoy socializing much and could not care any less about stupid blobs, gatecamps, CTA's and completely ******** people who think the game is just about Killboards and who has the biggest ship, such is the mindset of a low/null player from what I have seen.


See this is the type of person that should live in high sec - antisocial individuals who don't understand what EVE is about. Let these guys run level 4 missions and AFK mine to their hearts content if that's what they want to do.



No. I will not leave them alone, and they may not mine or run missions in peace to their hearts' content. They are phytoplankton, their numbers must be thinned. They think they are the only group in EVE who should be without an enemy, they are wrong. I am their enemy.


I'm quoting this as the reason I say null is safer but let me clarify my point.

Null is not safe by design. It is as safe as you make it. I personally avoid all forms of PvP whenever possible. The reason I prefer null and call it safer is because people like this can't hide behind concord. The true corwards of Eve aren't miners or mission runners who want only to be left alone to do their thing. The true cowards of Eve are those who exploit high sec mechanics in order to avoid any semblance of a real challenge. I live in null. I run anoms. I mine. I run logistics when t is needed for my corp or alliance. In null I can do these things in relative peace and safety for now. I get to play the game as I see fit. If someone wants to bump my semi afk retriever they will have actual consequences beyond angry words.

This is what makes null feel safer to me. Not because I never get blown up, I do. Not because it can't be effected by other power blocs and I will be forced to move; it could happen. It is safer to me because I control my consequences. It is safer because there is no cowardly suicide ganking. It is safer because when push comes to shove I have guns too and people who do not like my play style can not hide behind magic space police. This is why I call null safer. I am a carebear in that I avoid confrontation. However, in null I can bare my teeth when I must. In high sec I cannot and it is less disheartening to lose a ship in a conflict over what I consider mine than to 4 thrashers who decided they have something against my way of enjoying the game.

Safer is probably the wrong word. There are risks in null but they can be minimized if you're willing to take the right steps. Wars happen and systems change hands but at least the risks involved are something one has control over.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#64 - 2012-11-14 17:48:51 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I hear you can shoot other ships without worry about the Police.

No really, Hand to God I heard you could.

I hear hi-sec as much PvP as Lo and Null and RvB is growing.

But I hear what you are saying. I think the perception is that anything less than a small gang makes you a target. How does a solo, which alot of hi-seccers are, enjoy lo/null experience?
Generals4
#65 - 2012-11-14 17:54:32 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I hear you can shoot other ships without worry about the Police.

No really, Hand to God I heard you could.

I hear hi-sec as much PvP as Lo and Null and RvB is growing.

But I hear what you are saying. I think the perception is that anything less than a small gang makes you a target. How does a solo, which alot of hi-seccers are, enjoy lo/null experience?


Not sure about the pirate life in low and null but in FW you can have plenty of solo pvp.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#66 - 2012-11-14 17:59:06 UTC
Silver Plated wrote:


Safer is probably the wrong word. There are risks in null but they can be minimized if you're willing to take the right steps. Wars happen and systems change hands but at least the risks involved are something one has control over.


Safer is exactly the wrong word.

What you're describing is "Risky but able to mitigate that risk". When managing a Risk you basically have the following options:


  1. Mitigate (i.e. take action to reduce the likelyhood or impact of the risk)
  2. Accept (i.e. do nothing and accept the fact you wont change the risk)
  3. Remove (i.e. stop doing whatever it is you're doing to expose yourself to the risk)
  4. Transfer (i.e. make the risk someone else's responsibility)


If you use those principles the risks of null you get the following options while living in null sec:


  1. Mitigate - Take precautions while travelling and living in null sec to reduce the likelyhood of you getting killed (intel, paying attention, warping out ASAP etc) or the impact (don't fly swag ships)
  2. Accept - Wallet tank. If you lose anything shrug it off.
  3. Remove - Move back to High Sec
  4. Transfer - No real option for this, a good example though is Ship Reimbursement. You transfer the impact of the risk to something else (the alliance) so it's not as risky.


Just because you can reduce the risk of living in null by taking proper precautions doesn't mean its too safe. This is what we should be after, players working together and actively playing the game with skill to survive. Players in null take several options to reduce risk, but no-one ever really just accepts the risk, no-one really just flies unscouted through null all the time, ignores intel and doesn't warp out when a neut enters.

Null players being good at reducing the risk they take is not bad game design, it shows creative players.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#67 - 2012-11-14 18:01:42 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Roime wrote:
We can't cure stupid and are not interested in blowing up your cap stable L4 derpboats or barges.

You are the ones who miss all the fun EVE :)



The temptation to apply to a corp with a CEO who refers to possible candidates as 'stupid' is almost irresistable.

But resist I shall.



Implying that a pvp-hating hisec dweller would be a possible candidate.



.
Silver Plated
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-11-14 18:14:48 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Silver Plated wrote:


Safer is probably the wrong word. There are risks in null but they can be minimized if you're willing to take the right steps. Wars happen and systems change hands but at least the risks involved are something one has control over.


Safer is exactly the wrong word.

What you're describing is "Risky but able to mitigate that risk". When managing a Risk you basically have the following options:


  1. Mitigate (i.e. take action to reduce the likelyhood or impact of the risk)
  2. Accept (i.e. do nothing and accept the fact you wont change the risk)
  3. Remove (i.e. stop doing whatever it is you're doing to expose yourself to the risk)
  4. Transfer (i.e. make the risk someone else's responsibility)


If you use those principles the risks of null you get the following options while living in null sec:


  1. Mitigate - Take precautions while travelling and living in null sec to reduce the likelyhood of you getting killed (intel, paying attention, warping out ASAP etc) or the impact (don't fly swag ships)
  2. Accept - Wallet tank. If you lose anything shrug it off.
  3. Remove - Move back to High Sec
  4. Transfer - No real option for this, a good example though is Ship Reimbursement. You transfer the impact of the risk to something else (the alliance) so it's not as risky.


Just because you can reduce the risk of living in null by taking proper precautions doesn't mean its too safe. This is what we should be after, players working together and actively playing the game with skill to survive. Players in null take several options to reduce risk, but no-one ever really just accepts the risk, no-one really just flies unscouted through null all the time, ignores intel and doesn't warp out when a neut enters.

Null players being good at reducing the risk they take is not bad game design, it shows creative players.



I never meant to imply that I think null is too safe. Only that the "safety" that can be found in Null has advantages over the "safety" in high sec. At least for me it seems to. Either way I get the feeling we agree more than not.

I agree with what you say.
Lance Rossiter
CHAINS Corp
#69 - 2012-11-14 18:18:12 UTC
Low sec is fun because it's riskier and less predictable, and because there are better natural resources split between fewer pilots. I like it a lot.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#70 - 2012-11-14 18:26:53 UTC
Silver Plated wrote:


I never meant to imply that I think null is too safe. Only that the "safety" that can be found in Null has advantages over the "safety" in high sec. At least for me it seems to. Either way I get the feeling we agree more than not.

I agree with what you say.



Main difference is the "safety" in null sec is created by players and their common goals and working together.

Safety in high sec is hard coded.

Reward the former, not the latter.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#71 - 2012-11-14 18:35:39 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Main difference is the "safety" in null sec is created by players and their common goals and working together.

Safety in high sec is hard coded.


The safety in null comes from local. Local provides no such safety in hisec because unfamiliar people are always coming and going.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#72 - 2012-11-14 18:37:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Bane Necran wrote:

The safety in null comes from local. Local provides no such safety in hisec because unfamiliar people are always coming and going.


Finish the sentence.

Bane Necran should have wrote:

The safety in null comes from local and the cooperation of actual human beings before the bad guy even gets to your local. Local provides no such safety in hisec because unfamiliar people are always coming and going which doesn't matter in the least because of CONCORD.



Thanks, I knew you ( I ) could do it.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#73 - 2012-11-14 18:46:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Local provides no such safety in hisec because unfamiliar people are always coming and going which doesn't matter in the least because of CONCORD.


Yes, no one ever gets blown up in hisec because of CONCORD. Roll

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#74 - 2012-11-14 18:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Shamus O'Reilly
Nexus Day wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I hear you can shoot other ships without worry about the Police.

No really, Hand to God I heard you could.

I hear hi-sec as much PvP as Lo and Null and RvB is growing.

But I hear what you are saying. I think the perception is that anything less than a small gang makes you a target. How does a solo, which alot of hi-seccers are, enjoy lo/null experience?


1: by going to low/null expecting to lose a ship.

2: by going there and outsmarting others

3: by going there and joining a small group of laid back like minded people to teach you how to work the area.

i can keep going but i see solo PVPers in lowsec take on small gangs at times i also see cloakie indie guys running the area all the time for PI purposes. learn the times gate camps on hisec gates happen. trust in a scout or scout with an alt. there's many ways 1 player can have fun in low (possibly null depending on what you are doing). But i'll admit wholeheartedly that joining up with others is the best way to play it (my opinion only) even if you are all soloers just for talking and having good laughs on comms etc. It just makes the experience more fun.


Edit: The truth is is by learning to accept that you will possibly or even probably lose a ship to combat or to pirates etc makes lowsec and nullsec easier to work with. You wont get so mad at yourself when you say "oh well i can just work myself back up for that ship/clone again"

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Pixie Kalush
Midnight special super sexy
#75 - 2012-11-14 19:23:57 UTC
Different environments/game styles do not really trouble me. I believe in the freedom of choice. And yes, I also accept your choice.

The attempts to influence each others game styles look foolish to me. Thinking you do it right and others do it wrong is a bit "petit". I am aware that there are cultures were you go an try to sue when you cannot compete any longer. Going on the forum and calling for nerfs is similar.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-11-14 19:27:25 UTC
Silver Plated wrote:
Null is not safe by design. It is as safe as you make it. I personally avoid all forms of PvP whenever possible. The reason I prefer null and call it safer is because people like this can't hide behind concord. The true corwards of Eve aren't miners or mission runners who want only to be left alone to do their thing. The true cowards of Eve are those who exploit high sec mechanics in order to avoid any semblance of a real challenge. I live in null. I run anoms. I mine. I run logistics when t is needed for my corp or alliance. In null I can do these things in relative peace and safety for now. I get to play the game as I see fit. If someone wants to bump my semi afk retriever they will have actual consequences beyond angry words.

This is what makes null feel safer to me. Not because I never get blown up, I do. Not because it can't be effected by other power blocs and I will be forced to move; it could happen. It is safer to me because I control my consequences. It is safer because there is no cowardly suicide ganking. It is safer because when push comes to shove I have guns too and people who do not like my play style can not hide behind magic space police. This is why I call null safer. I am a carebear in that I avoid confrontation. However, in null I can bare my teeth when I must. In high sec I cannot and it is less disheartening to lose a ship in a conflict over what I consider mine than to 4 thrashers who decided they have something against my way of enjoying the game.

Safer is probably the wrong word. There are risks in null but they can be minimized if you're willing to take the right steps. Wars happen and systems change hands but at least the risks involved are something one has control over.

Well said.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#77 - 2012-11-14 20:24:20 UTC
Silver Plated wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Ritsum wrote:
Meh Nerf High-sec all you want... It is still the place I will play since I don't enjoy socializing much and could not care any less about stupid blobs, gatecamps, CTA's and completely ******** people who think the game is just about Killboards and who has the biggest ship, such is the mindset of a low/null player from what I have seen.


See this is the type of person that should live in high sec - antisocial individuals who don't understand what EVE is about. Let these guys run level 4 missions and AFK mine to their hearts content if that's what they want to do.



No. I will not leave them alone, and they may not mine or run missions in peace to their hearts' content. They are phytoplankton, their numbers must be thinned. They think they are the only group in EVE who should be without an enemy, they are wrong. I am their enemy.


I'm quoting this as the reason I say null is safer but let me clarify my point.

Null is not safe by design. It is as safe as you make it. I personally avoid all forms of PvP whenever possible. The reason I prefer null and call it safer is because people like this can't hide behind concord. The true corwards of Eve aren't miners or mission runners who want only to be left alone to do their thing. The true cowards of Eve are those who exploit high sec mechanics in order to avoid any semblance of a real challenge. I live in null. I run anoms. I mine. I run logistics when t is needed for my corp or alliance. In null I can do these things in relative peace and safety for now. I get to play the game as I see fit. If someone wants to bump my semi afk retriever they will have actual consequences beyond angry words.

This is what makes null feel safer to me. Not because I never get blown up, I do. Not because it can't be effected by other power blocs and I will be forced to move; it could happen. It is safer to me because I control my consequences. It is safer because there is no cowardly suicide ganking. It is safer because when push comes to shove I have guns too and people who do not like my play style can not hide behind magic space police. This is why I call null safer. I am a carebear in that I avoid confrontation. However, in null I can bare my teeth when I must. In high sec I cannot and it is less disheartening to lose a ship in a conflict over what I consider mine than to 4 thrashers who decided they have something against my way of enjoying the game.

Safer is probably the wrong word. There are risks in null but they can be minimized if you're willing to take the right steps. Wars happen and systems change hands but at least the risks involved are something one has control over.


"cowardly" suicide gankers? Hiding behind CONCORD?!?! Tell me, what would your ideal highsec be like if everyone adhered to your stupid concept of ~e-honor~? Why do you phytoplankton feel you should be without an enemy? Doesn't someone have to do it?

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Silver Plated
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-11-14 20:31:41 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Silver Plated wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Ritsum wrote:
Meh Nerf High-sec all you want... It is still the place I will play since I don't enjoy socializing much and could not care any less about stupid blobs, gatecamps, CTA's and completely ******** people who think the game is just about Killboards and who has the biggest ship, such is the mindset of a low/null player from what I have seen.


See this is the type of person that should live in high sec - antisocial individuals who don't understand what EVE is about. Let these guys run level 4 missions and AFK mine to their hearts content if that's what they want to do.



No. I will not leave them alone, and they may not mine or run missions in peace to their hearts' content. They are phytoplankton, their numbers must be thinned. They think they are the only group in EVE who should be without an enemy, they are wrong. I am their enemy.


I'm quoting this as the reason I say null is safer but let me clarify my point.

Null is not safe by design. It is as safe as you make it. I personally avoid all forms of PvP whenever possible. The reason I prefer null and call it safer is because people like this can't hide behind concord. The true corwards of Eve aren't miners or mission runners who want only to be left alone to do their thing. The true cowards of Eve are those who exploit high sec mechanics in order to avoid any semblance of a real challenge. I live in null. I run anoms. I mine. I run logistics when t is needed for my corp or alliance. In null I can do these things in relative peace and safety for now. I get to play the game as I see fit. If someone wants to bump my semi afk retriever they will have actual consequences beyond angry words.

This is what makes null feel safer to me. Not because I never get blown up, I do. Not because it can't be effected by other power blocs and I will be forced to move; it could happen. It is safer to me because I control my consequences. It is safer because there is no cowardly suicide ganking. It is safer because when push comes to shove I have guns too and people who do not like my play style can not hide behind magic space police. This is why I call null safer. I am a carebear in that I avoid confrontation. However, in null I can bare my teeth when I must. In high sec I cannot and it is less disheartening to lose a ship in a conflict over what I consider mine than to 4 thrashers who decided they have something against my way of enjoying the game.

Safer is probably the wrong word. There are risks in null but they can be minimized if you're willing to take the right steps. Wars happen and systems change hands but at least the risks involved are something one has control over.


"cowardly" suicide gankers? Hiding behind CONCORD?!?! Tell me, what would your ideal highsec be like if everyone adhered to your stupid concept of ~e-honor~? Why do you phytoplankton feel you should be without an enemy? Doesn't someone have to do it?


Come find me mining in null and say that to my face. If you even succeeded in getting my mining or pve ship I'd be surprised. What you do is try to pass judgement on other people's play styles while ensuring they can't retaliate because you can hide behind concord. You know they can't retaliate because their security status is important to their play style or because they only have the skills needed for industry. Asking to be left alone is not cowardly. Using the protections and mechanics of high sec to inhibit other players enjoyment of the game is.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#79 - 2012-11-14 20:36:56 UTC
Silver Plated wrote:
In high sec I cannot and it is less disheartening to lose a ship in a conflict over what I consider mine than to 4 thrashers who decided they have something against my way of enjoying the game.


Every time I see this I cringe a little.

Let me ask you since your' the latest to throw out that little bit of illogic. What evidence do you have that people trying to gank people in high sec are doing that because they "have something against their playstyle"? Why not consider the idea that "extracting tears" is in and of itself a "playstyle"? And since all "playstyles" are valid, so is this one

Put another way, why do you think you are so important that any other soul actually cares about what you do? You're a target in a game with 400,000 targets you know, people gank folsk because they like it and the game allows it (just like mining) even if other people don't.

"Freedom" cuts both ways.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#80 - 2012-11-14 20:42:51 UTC
Silver Plated wrote:

Come find me mining in null and say that to my face. If you even succeeded in getting my mining or pve ship I'd be surprised. What you do is try to pass judgement on other people's play styles while ensuring they can't retaliate because you can hide behind concord. You know they can't retaliate because their security status is important to their play style or because they only have the skills needed for industry. Asking to be left alone is not cowardly. Using the protections and mechanics of high sec to inhibit other players enjoyment of the game is.


You should be on the way to a hospital right now, because the incredible twisting of logic one would have to do that come up with this nonsenses would surely sprain your brain muscles.....

So tell us again how up is down and left is right...