These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Rebalance Clone Prices

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
iskflakes
#141 - 2012-11-14 16:21:30 UTC
Lashenadeeka wrote:
I really hope that 110B listed on your evestats website is not the full extent of your wealth or you simply sound ridiculous talking in such a way.


I think it's bad that a cruiser which costs 5m is 80% as good as a battlecruiser that costs 60m. What's ridiculous about that?

It is off topic though.

-
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#142 - 2012-11-14 17:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
iskflakes wrote:
Lashenadeeka wrote:
I really hope that 110B listed on your evestats website is not the full extent of your wealth or you simply sound ridiculous talking in such a way.


I think it's bad that a cruiser which costs 5m is 80% as good as a battlecruiser that costs 60m. What's ridiculous about that?

It is off topic though.


Maybe because there is no "best ship"? Or that's at-least what they have been striving for. BCs offer different assets to fleet.
They are slower but have more tank than cruisers but can boost small gangs. It's a different role.
Yet this doesn't translate to clones at all. The more you play, the more you pay. So unless you play more often to make use of your accrued skill points for more isk making opportunities. You are forced to make a new persona to do the more mundane but fun activities such as frigate fights. Which are just easier to prepare and are simply easy fun. Eve is real blah blah balah, its also supposed to be a game. Why do you think they have spent so much time trying to make the NPE more intuitive and less convoluted so you spend less time learning the game and more time playing it. Why don't we play the game more and grind out clone isk less so losing becomes slightly more tolerable and more people are willing to explode.
You are simply forced to suck on faucets to continue playing just to spit into the sink. Not much of a proper isk sink you if you ask me.
With less sink is this particular mechanic, larger amounts of materials can be lost with less faucet work. They just need to change insurance completely as its just silly. Insurance should be like a LP payout for a % of lost you incurred in service of FW or Concord in an incursion or something. Independent struggles like wars in high low nul shouldn't offer anything in the way of insurance.
This years fanfest mentioned last years monthly 4Q average
Faucets:
NPC Bounties 26 trillion
wormhole 8.9 trillion
Incusion 8 trillion
Mission rewards 4.3 trillion
Other 3.4 trillion
Sinks:
Skillbooks 6.8 trillion
Blueprints 6.1 trillion
Fees and tax 3.7 trillion
Other 4.6 trillion
50 in, 26 out. that was 24 trillion inflow per monthly average.

Insurance must be part of CCPs "Other" when it comes to faucets. 3.4 trillion per month.
Clones I imagine are part of CCPs "Other" when it comes to sinks. 4.6 trillion per month.
If they move out insurance, they can easily relieve clone sinks.
New eject timers with weapon flags will have more people losing pods everywhere due to displacement lag of your ship popping. T3 pilots will finally be forced to taking time to learn subsystems levels again more often. AI changes will make for fewer afk'ish' carrier/domi ratters. Incursions I believe had already been nerfed since these averages. Overall, I think there is room enough to mess with clones.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2012-11-14 18:17:05 UTC
So if someone has 129 million skill points and forgets to update their clone; they lose 6.4 million skill points. Great game mechanic. Roll
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2012-11-14 18:22:28 UTC
OP have a point there, tbh, if the objective was purely for isk sink, why don't CCP tax clone jumps instead based on SP total or something and reduce the inclination/increase in medical clone costs?

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2012-11-14 18:38:30 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
Back on the actual topic. There's certainly improvements that could be made, for example adding a dialogue warning you if you're about to undock without a clone, but PVP should not be free. It's bad enough that cheap ships are 99% as good as more expensive ships these days, let's not make that extend to clones too.

I think the point here is that medical clone costs for higher SP characters does discourage people from doing pvp. Most of my friends who has more than 75mil SP doesn't use that character for any form of pvp below capital fights. I even had a friend who sell his own alt so he can grab the isk and buy a new one with lesser SP, just to pvp.

Higher SP doesn't automagically correlates to higher income. Heck, my 1 month old alt makes more isk than my main on a monthly basis. On some (or even most) cases, it's actually the other way around, one thing I noticed is that some people who has a high sp characters doesn't log on that often, which means they don't do the usual isk grinding stuff lower SP characters do. Some even don't do it at all and just pay for the subs in RL isk. But one thing that pulls them back from time to time is when there's an opportunity to shoot stuff or go on some random roam with friends or huge fights incoming, etc.

This game is about choices, for older players, having a high SP is not a choice (oh god please don't bring up the option that you can pause your skill training, that's irrelevant not to mention stupid), it should be a reward for those people who has committed and stayed loyal to the game for some extended period of time. Why does the game punishes people for being loyal? that doesn't make sense; at least not from my perspective.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Lashenadeeka
Qinglong Fleet
Jade Kirin Alliance
#146 - 2012-11-14 18:41:53 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
So if someone has 129 million skill points and forgets to update their clone; they lose 6.4 million skill points. Great game mechanic. Roll


No, they lose a maximum of 50% of their highest trained skill. The highest skill in game is Titan skill at 4096000 SP. So the most you can EVER lose at once is:

2048000 SP

Most people don't have anything higher than BS 5 so they lose 1024000 SP at worst.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#147 - 2012-11-14 18:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Because a reduction of isk sinks is just what EVE needs.


Reducing clone costs is a matter of positive gaming experience that touches more players than those crawling on isk.

Increase Corp creation costs would be a nice way to get some isk out of the game and solve "some" problems related. Change it to 1Bil cost for corp, 5 bil for alliance, create new Alliance Concord tax on wallets sleeping while vomiting isk.
Change WH POCOS mechanic, only NPC ones and set tax to 17% -WH planets have highest value in Eve and should not be able to avoid taxes.
Increase industry slots costs in high sec, significantly nerf trading skills and increase market taxes accordingly to SS.

There are so many other ways to get isk out of the game without nerfing players fun of playing their character because of this bad clone system.

brb
Grey Stone
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#148 - 2012-11-14 19:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stone
I agree with OP comments and I would like to see some changes in the clone mechanics and costs.

Higher SP character have advantage over low SP characters in that that they can do more things in EVE and fly more Ships.

But the main point is> They can do only one thing at the time.

What does it mean? Well I can either fly frigate or carrier or whatever at one time. I can only do one thing in EVE. I cannot with my 150 mil SP char do 2 missions at one time. I cannot split him.

So advantage really depends on an occasion.

I think that the cloning system should be like this to be fair:

Clone SP TIED to a ship and modules fitted at the time pod exploded.

It would go i.e. like this:

- Jump into t1 frigate.
- Fit t1 frig.
- Undock.
!!!!! EVE calculates what skills are needed for this ship and for the modules I have.
!!!!! EVE calculates number of SP I have in skills needed to fly that ship and modules.
!!!!! EVE assigns above mentioned SP amount to the clone.
- If character gets his ship destroyed and than podded, the clone costs are not for total SP char has, but for amount that game calculated as explained above.

So if I get into t1 frigate with 150 mil SP and go fighting 30 day old char in t1 frig, I would still pay more than he for a pod loss. This is how it should be.

This also make sense for capital ships. SP needed is much higher. You enter super-capital, your clone will cost much more that when you are in t1 frig. But it make sense as you are USING those additional skills.

This also works with miners. Hulk pilot clone will cost much more than a future 30 days old mining frig pilot.

This makes sense imho.

We will see what will happen. I hate to have an alt just so I would avoid 45 mil clone costs...

best,
Grey


edit: damn I just realized that with proposed skill changes it will push me over the 156 trashold and my my next clone soon will cost 65 mil isk... damn
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#149 - 2012-11-14 20:12:22 UTC
That's an interesting idea Grey Stone.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#150 - 2012-11-14 20:19:25 UTC
Jurias wrote:
That's an interesting idea Grey Stone.


Even if my clone costs only 13mil I do agree with your arguments and the proposition of Grey Stone.

They are legitimate, even more considering the fact that there is lag when your ship is destroyed. I hope that CCP does not consider lag as a part of it's gameplay, and this only point should be enough to motivate them to take actions in compensation.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Lord Hark
korpa pYco
#151 - 2013-01-17 14:24:37 UTC
+1 for rebalancing clone prices

Current prices discourage (at least nullsec) pvp for older characters, thus punishing for loyalty, that doesn't sound right. Flying AF or Inty into bubble camp with dramiel and / or having lag can easily cost you more on clone cost than on ship including fittings, this also doesn't sound like smart game mechanics.

While I try to specialize my characters that do PVP, I already hit the border when pod loss is quite a hit on my wallet. I'd say that explosion of the ship is already significant loss, isk-wise.

This is a game, I play to have fun, not to grind more.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#152 - 2013-01-17 17:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
Because a reduction of isk sinks is just what EVE needs.


Search for your ISK sinks elsewhere, high prices for meatbags are what scared off people from FUN.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#153 - 2013-01-17 17:38:19 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Because a reduction of isk sinks is just what EVE needs.



Decrease clone costs, get rid of margin trading skill, increase market trading costs.

Here you go for balance, and a huge one getting rid of more isk than clones price, number of trading operations is huge, really really huge. Increase it of some points and get rid of "no cost/risk market operations" skill and you'll increase it even further.

But of course this will not gonna happen because not every one trades right? -well not every ones looses pods neither, specially sitting at the station and trading/playing 0.1isk games.

My drunk and bad calculator says trading volumes/number of operations can make more isk go away than pods price, but I know mine might have some cheese and whine over it, maybe a bit of baguette too.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#154 - 2013-01-17 17:39:55 UTC
My clone costs 150mil

Does this mean I can't leave the POS anymore?



.
Dezreth
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-01-17 17:50:08 UTC
What would be the impact on game economy if they offered a short-term perma-clone option?

So lets' say you want to PvP for a few hours. Buy x-hour protection that clones you as often as needed for x hours from the time of purchase. I envision this an an option on top of your normal clone so you would would do it as a short-term upgrade but your existing medical clone is still available once the upgrade expires.

You still lose the ship and any implants (although it would seem dumb to wear them if you're knowingly pvping in a dangerous enough area to buy this insurance option).

Seems to me it generates another ISK-sink and encourages PvP. The increase in ship replacement might even make up for the ISK that would have been spent on more clones since the volume of PvPing might go up significantly. I'll leave pricing up to others to debate, but is there anything about this in principle that would be a problem?
Spurty
#156 - 2013-01-17 17:54:33 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Yeah, someone throw those poor poor players with 120m SP a bone. How could they possibly afford 20m ISK from time to time?

Seriously guys, how often do you guys lose your pods...


If you have 120m skil points and you're only buying a 20mill clone (5, 10, 20 times a day if you're hardcore pvper), you'll soon be a 92mill skill point pod pilot

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:NewCloneUpgradeWindow.jpg

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
hyhn
Iynx Teledyne Armory
The Chogo Ri Commonwealth
#157 - 2013-01-17 18:00:36 UTC
How exactly is New Eden supposed to be a harsh, cold , unforgiving , brutal , yada, yada, yada ..... place if at ever turn you are trying to take the sting out of loss ? If you have over 100 mil SP and can not afford clone cost you need to buy another plex.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#158 - 2013-01-17 18:27:35 UTC
Dezreth wrote:
What would be the impact on game economy if they offered a short-term perma-clone option?

So lets' say you want to PvP for a few hours. Buy x-hour protection that clones you as often as needed for x hours from the time of purchase. I envision this an an option on top of your normal clone so you would would do it as a short-term upgrade but your existing medical clone is still available once the upgrade expires.

You still lose the ship and any implants (although it would seem dumb to wear them if you're knowingly pvping in a dangerous enough area to buy this insurance option).

Seems to me it generates another ISK-sink and encourages PvP. The increase in ship replacement might even make up for the ISK that would have been spent on more clones since the volume of PvPing might go up significantly. I'll leave pricing up to others to debate, but is there anything about this in principle that would be a problem?



Yeah, why should combat be free of consequences?

Consequences, actually losing something is the main thing making EVE different. And again, clone costs are absolutely neglible to a point where I think OP is just trying to justify risk aversion.

.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#159 - 2013-01-17 18:29:52 UTC
No.

CCP should do the exact opposite, they should increase the clone cost.

The Tears Must Flow
Spurty
#160 - 2013-01-17 19:05:58 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
No.

CCP should do the exact opposite, they should increase the clone cost.


I agree ... Flat fee, 100mill!

Come at me in your rifters yo

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP