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Dev Blog: Stay on Target - UI Features set for Retribution

First post First post
Author
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#41 - 2012-11-14 15:26:22 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
I can't do an aussie accent. So I read it in my French accent. So I didn't understand anything..
..which one is shield? Lol



Yeah, because this approach worked so well last time as EVE-O players can't tell when CCP Devs are trolling Straight

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

JohnathanGalt
Northern Sky Industries
#42 - 2012-11-14 15:42:40 UTC
My main issue, and I love the general feel of the redesign, is that on your ship, the "space" for the HP indications is a half circle. This is great, becasue it is really easy to quickly judge when 1/3 of a bar is gone, or 2/3. On the new target indications, the "space" allocated is about 66% of a circle. That makes it hard to make snap calls on amount remaining on any amount of damage but half.
Tantabobo
Jester's Fleet
Jester's Alliance
#43 - 2012-11-14 15:42:55 UTC
I personally prefer the new design over the old one (being colorblind, it could be REALLY difficult to read at times).

That being said, I think the best option going forward would be to allow people to alter the color palette.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-11-14 15:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Masheen wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I'm claiming responsibility for the new camera settings. I suggested it multiple times but didn't get so much as a "yeah, good idea" from CCP.... You are welcome by the way Cool

When are you going to let use move the damage notifications from the center of the screen?


I've never heard of you but you seem like a cool guy so I'm going to take your word for it. Cool :brofist:

You can already on Buckingham move the damage and general notifications. The route is a bit hidden but we'll put a shortcut in the HUD menu:

1. Neocom
2. Accessories
3. Log
4. Settings tab
5. Press button that says 'Enter moving mode for messages '
6. Drag the two boxes to your preferred location
7. Press button again to Exit mode


Nice work. I'm looking forward to this update more and more each day Smile
Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#45 - 2012-11-14 16:06:34 UTC
Viscount Hood wrote:
darn

i'm always 2nd!


Women like that you know!
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2012-11-14 16:12:49 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Yeah, because this approach worked so well last time as EVE-O players can't tell when CCP Devs are trolling Straight


Hah! You don't know the half of it. Our analysis software that runs on feedback threads ranked me as the most negative poster of that thread. Not only was I most negative but I didn't have a shred of neutral or positive feedback. I have never seen that before in my six years here. So seeing as my shenanigans fool software that doesn't read between lines, misunderstand things or have any other basic features Humanity™ includes, I cant fault anybody. Well other than myself of course.

Either way... "Yay!" for me? Ugh
Blue Habanero
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-11-14 16:18:42 UTC
This is exciting, but if you're going to touch the log module can you *please* fix logging itself? It's very difficult to analyze logs after the fact because of weapons grouping and the generic text used for each enemy. There's no way to tell the 100th Serpentis Grand Admiral from the first. You have to manually deal with number of weapons per ship, the log text varies wildly by hit type, etc, etc. It's a mess.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#48 - 2012-11-14 16:18:50 UTC

AH can't stop reading the devblog with ozzie accent!

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#49 - 2012-11-14 16:22:57 UTC

Love the notification changes!

Great changes overall, I like the improved damage circles, make much more sense and consistent with your neocom system.

(I kinda said do something like this, so I love that you went with it, not saying that I"m responsible >.> )

Great job Lol

Where I am.

oniplE
MeMento.
#50 - 2012-11-14 16:26:44 UTC
CCP Masheen wrote:
Terh Rumnatarn wrote:
I know it is very hard to please all the players at the same time, and beside the target icon, all the other improvements are splendid.

But please CCP, reconsider this http://mirage-sg.com/hpbars.png.

I understand the need for an improved UI, more slick and rounder, which I fully agree on. But THAT icon, not only it looks bad, but it is very hard to read. On large scale (the shield/arm/hull for your own ship) it looks ok, but on a smaller scale doesn't fit with eve concept. That white/red marble chain around the ship icon is wrong.

For me the original concept (from the 1st blog) was beautiful and easy to read (even if it displeased a no. of players with left and right orientation problems). I would accept almost any other concept, that has some transparancy, gray/ not so gray style, etc. but not this.

Hope we won`t see this introduced in Tranq. It would make me very sad when pew pew.

For everything else, only thumbs up, very good useful improvements, and very intuitive. Thank you for EVE, and keep up the good work.


I get where you're coming from, I too had some affection for the previous design but having had a week with this one I'm learning to love it all the more and it has some clear advantages as it's much more accurate than anything we've had before.

We found from mass-testing that this layered design causes much less confusion and was loads more popular. We're now working on fine-tuning the design to make it easier to differentiate between layers. I hope that will help to mitigate any reservations you still have

It looks nice and i'm looking forward to it, but what doesn't make sense to me is the fact that target S/A/H indicators are based on 270 degree (ish) circles while your own S/A/H HUD is based on 180 degree circles. It's not that a three quarter circle is better or worse, but from a design point of view it would make more sense if both were the same, right?

(sorry, i know it's trivial but it's just something i noticed :P )
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
#51 - 2012-11-14 16:51:23 UTC
Modules after being deactivated (cycling red) don't show tooltips.

Could you also allow for reactivating a module that is cycling red, for example a prop mod, before it deactivates completely?

Also I'd like to see a better indicator of your ship's direction and velocity when zoomed out in order to get a better view of the battlefield, which is how i think most people usually position their camera. Perhaps a bright red line extending from the origin point of the ship in its direction of movement, with its length being the current velocity of the ship times say five or ten seconds.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#52 - 2012-11-14 17:04:07 UTC
CCP Masheen wrote:
Terh Rumnatarn wrote:
I know it is very hard to please all the players at the same time, and beside the target icon, all the other improvements are splendid.

But please CCP, reconsider this http://mirage-sg.com/hpbars.png.

I understand the need for an improved UI, more slick and rounder, which I fully agree on. But THAT icon, not only it looks bad, but it is very hard to read. On large scale (the shield/arm/hull for your own ship) it looks ok, but on a smaller scale doesn't fit with eve concept. That white/red marble chain around the ship icon is wrong.

For me the original concept (from the 1st blog) was beautiful and easy to read (even if it displeased a no. of players with left and right orientation problems). I would accept almost any other concept, that has some transparancy, gray/ not so gray style, etc. but not this.

Hope we won`t see this introduced in Tranq. It would make me very sad when pew pew.

For everything else, only thumbs up, very good useful improvements, and very intuitive. Thank you for EVE, and keep up the good work.


I get where you're coming from, I too had some affection for the previous design but having had a week with this one I'm learning to love it all the more and it has some clear advantages as it's much more accurate than anything we've had before.

We found from mass-testing that this layered design causes much less confusion and was loads more popular. We're now working on fine-tuning the design to make it easier to differentiate between layers. I hope that will help to mitigate any reservations you still have


Of course it was more popular, it means less change people have to deal with. But good god it is ugly, and on 90% scaling it is nearly impossible to read. I would favor the OLD ui over these changes. Those bars while not cosmetically nice, at least didn't drown you in pointless information.

More importantly, does anyone really need to see at a glance how many HP bars a ship has left, or simply approximately where it's health is? I've never heard anyone go, "okay that scorpion is down to 14 bars left, prepare to switch targets". Granted it mimics the current UI, but as others have said, that is a step backwards. It also doesn't address any of the ongoing issues of why it was changed to begin with. You still have no intuitive notion of what comes after the other except that it mimics what you have now. That does not help new players, it just makes it appeal to people who already know the system. It is no different, and shows no inherent progress from shield to armor. All it is, is the old bars basically, and put them in an arc, and add divisions. The problem was not where the bars were, it was that the bars were not intuitive. These are not either.

Keep the 270* arc, just make them simple bars, that progress one to the other, linearly, not stacked, around the circle. We don't need to know the exact specifics of how many HP they have left. Hell you can even add delineations in the bars, just don't stack them, it looks awful.
Sturmwolke
#53 - 2012-11-14 17:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Don't plan to be on the test server, looks ok from the pic.

Onto an idea that popped up, often times, players need to double-check their ship's (shields/armor) resistances by bringing up the fitting window - this is very clunky for such a critical information. Granted you don't look it up every second, but there are plenty of scenarios that I think having some sort of in-space indicator to show your ship's resistance will be beneficial. Example : mission runners who forgot to fit the right hardeners, quick realtime indicator to show fleet shield/armor resistance boost has been enabled/disabled, confirmation at a glance when hardeners have been disabled in the heat of battle and extend awareness level of your ship's resistances (as opposed to forgetting your resists since you don't look it up that often).

The main HUD has a deadspace semi-circle just below the capacitor and above the speed indicator which could be turned into a shield and armor resist indicator. It'll be a little crowded though. Another alternative is perhaps to build a custom floating panel (that works like the fps monitor) to display ships shield and armor resistances in-space. This could then be extended to be player customizable to selectively display certain ship stats from the fitting window for quickviewing.

Bottomline, the fitting window is ill-designed for quick information lookup when you're in space. It's also very poor for maintaining your own ship's situational awareness.
nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#54 - 2012-11-14 17:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: nikon56
i apprieciate most of the changes, but here are two things i noticed on yesterday's test on duality:

1- make the indicators of shield / structure / hull on targeted item easier to read, the current "squared" ones are still better at doing this

2- i noticed that the targeted item list become buggy if aranged vertically, items stacking at random distances and eventually overlaping another targeted item, making some unable to be selected

this need to be adressed before the realease because in it's current state, vertically arranged targeted item is a no go, and cannot be used, since 50% of what is targeted cannot be selected !!!!!

to reproduce, arrange target vertically, lock a target, activate modules on it, lock more target (3/4) and voila, most often, target 2-3 and 4 will overlapp and 3/4 will not be selectable. The more you will activate modules on several targets, the worst it'll get
get in a fight like 10vs10 fleets, everyone with vetically target list, and passed 10 sec, you'll see the drama


sorry to post here but since the bug report tool doesn't accept complex password, i cannot report ingame (i changed pwd to get rid of limitations, but the current image on test server doesn't have the new one set yet)
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-11-14 17:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Currently, hovering over the shield/armor/hull bars of your target shows you the percentage remaining. This is moderately important for POS shoots and such. I am worried that with the new indicators this quickly becomes annoying, as the circles are what, 3 pixels thick? I tried hovering over them in the image, and it takes quite some concentration.
nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#56 - 2012-11-14 17:20:48 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Currently, hovering over the shield/armor/hull bars of your target shows you the percentage remaining. This is moderately important for POS shoots and such. I am worried that with the new indicators this quickly becomes annoying, as the circles are what, 2 pixels thick?

+1 this too need to be addressed, a way could be to popup a little resume with shield / armor / hull % when the pointer stays over a targeted item for a certain amount of time
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-11-14 17:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
Very nice work overall, and definitely looks much shinier than we have now. Even if no further changes are made, looking forward to seeing these on the live server. So please don't take offense at what I write below.

If you haven't already, please check this thread for additional feedback. Others and I dislike the layered design for three reasons.

First, the HP layers are too thin, and quickly blur into one another, especially for an armor-tanked target that has taken both shield and hull damage. That makes it very difficult to determine at a glance (1) whether a target is actually taking damage and (2) how much damage it is taking. As a logistics pilot, I will have a much harder time determining whether a locked target still needs reps or can safely be unlocked. Two years ago, you increased the width of watch-list HP bars precisely because they were too thin. It seems like the thin locked target HP bars are a step backwards, repeating a mistake that will have to be fixed down the road.

Second, the layers are too granular, and the little subdivisions are hard on the eyes. When shooting something, a player needs to only be able to ballpark the target's HP to within about 5-10%. For specific values we have the hover tooltip. The granularity is also useless in any engagement of more than sixty ships, because the HP on the locked target stops being accurate. I've had instances where the locked target UI would show one level of HP, the watchlist another, and the ship's pilot would see something else entirely.

Third, the decorative crosshairs provide false reference points.

I proposed an alternative that should be both intuitive and easy to read here . It is quoted below.

Alice Katsuko wrote:
Split the target HP into three separate bars, arranged in a semicircle rather than a full circle around the target. Shield HP will be the right-most on the semi-circle, centered at the three o'clock position. Armor HP will be in the middle, centered at the twelve o'clock position. Hull HP will be the left-most, centered at the nine o'clock position. That will make the centers of the HP arcs align with the crosshairs, so that they are not merely ornamental but also are a reference point. I would make small indents at 25% and 75% levels for each HP arc as well.

Something like this: http://i.imgur.com/qOFb3.png

Apologies for the awful drawing, but best I can do using MSPaint. I don't know whether segmenting the HP bar itself will be desirable.

The damage will go from right to left, just like on the current HUD, and the whole thing will also flow from right to left. For additional clarity, maybe add 'SH,' 'AR,' and 'ST' above each bar or something, but I don't think it's really necessary.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#58 - 2012-11-14 17:22:49 UTC
Terh Rumnatarn wrote:
DJ P0N-3 wrote:


1) I can read it. I can read it from a distance, I can line up my targets horizontally and I can look at all the health bars and not care about icon sizes. I can read it without having to stop and focus on it.

2) I don't know what your HUD looks like, but my ship's health looks an awful lot like red and white to me. I gauge everything by how much white I can see. The white is even starker on the icons.

3) Distinct colors good. Transparency bad.


http://i.imgur.com/38sfr.jpg.

Please say all these thing again after you see this pic. Imagine 5 targets, and just focus for a blink of an eye that target again. Can you distinguish how much armor it has? (This pic was taken from https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=170817&p=2)

And as you observe, almost the entire overview is quite transparent, and it looks ok. And those pure white/red colors are kind of in contrast with the whole space/EVE theme.

Open for discussion ofc.


I've been through that thread and I don't see any instances of five targets there, but I've seen it on Buckingham, so...yes. I can see it. It's easy because I've already trained myself to recognize those white shapes and correlate them to various degrees of "oh noes my armor" from the HUD, and because it's bright white on (what is effectively when I glance at it) black. High contrast and familiar shapes = easy for me. That's all. Maybe it's harder for people with better vision, but I really can't imagine what it's like, so...I'll just have to take your word for it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "transparent overview" either. I remember the days when they changed the shield/armor/hull and capacitor to be more transparent and it wasn't fun. Then they upped the contrast and it was okay again. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough to the transparency, but it doesn't look like I can see anything through the shield/armor/hull on my own ship. Do you mean the transparency of a pinned window, or just that the current health bars are greyer than the proposed new ones?

If you think red and white aren't appropriate for internet spaceships then that's beyond my purview to defend. I really don't care about colors in my spacegames. If they make the red darker, I won't mind because I'm not looking at it anyway. All I care about is the white.

Quote:
Nonetheless, I am sorry that I bring these negative feelings to this GREAT BLOG POST. I`m hating myself for that.

And will say it again.

REALLY BEAUTIFUL WORK YOU'VE DONE !!!!! AM VERY EXCITED ABOUT THESE FEATURES !!!!!!!!

Thx CCP.


Let us have a toast to forum warrioring with haterade, my good sir!
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#59 - 2012-11-14 17:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Again CCP is messing up with a UI feature like in the Inferno expansion.

For the unified inventory, CCP has decided to change something in a bad way, and to ignore our complaints from the test server. Do so ! After all, that's your game.

But when we will move from 5% to 100% of players putting their hands on the new targeting UI, we will see who will have to redesign something that was known to be quite dissapointing for all the duration of the tests, because of the non-ergonomic reading aspect of it.

Even more sad is the fact that there IS an alternate version for a new targeting UI, as shown in the first Stay on Target devblog.

Or at least, without moving back to the so-good first proposition of improvement, we would appreciate to see hp bars less thin.

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Gankula
Lead Farmers
#60 - 2012-11-14 17:24:54 UTC
This is the best news since the quack told me I couldn't get Myxie fro buffin' the muffin' with bush pigs :)