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Intergalactic Summit

 
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The Gallente Way of Life

Author
Gussarde en Welle
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-11-13 22:44:26 UTC
Gussarde en Welle wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
I'd like to add my voice to the other scientists (though I am really more of an engineer, really) speaking up. It's entirely possible to hijack a clone, assuming that you can negate the security.



It's possible, but the neural map would definitely not be surjective. I would fear that possible memory deficits or mental disorders would result shortly after transfer. Furthermore, a transfer back out of the hijacked clone would naturally result in a corrupted map. Perhaps software could be written to clean up corrupted data, but I'm not sure. In any case, the consciousness leaving the hijacked clone would likely be altered substantially.


A better option for doing this, of course, would be just to use Sansha-type nanite implants in the target clone's brain and some kind of implanted transmitter to set up a link to a standalone FTL transponder. Then you could hotlink that to simulator software packages like they use in flight training and run the whole thing while you're plugged in from a remote capsule. You'd have to have clone techs set that up for you. The clone "golem" wouldn't really make facial expressions and body movements like a normal human being, the response time while the golem was plugged into a capsule would be slow and you would definitely get feedback from the nanites, but maybe if you're just using the golem to crash a ship into a planet, it wouldn't be a big deal.

I hope I'm not giving terrorists ideas. Then again, the Nation has probably thought of this and used it already; \ \they're the only ones with the will and tech to use such an idea anyway.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-11-14 05:33:17 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Simply put, while Admiral Noir "just snapping" is deeply improbable from a psychological perspective, Admiral Noir deciding that the best option to hurt the Caldari was depriving the Federation of a very expensive piece of military hardware to kill a few hundred thousand civilians is deeply improbable from a strategic perspective.



Well put. That many improbable changes happening to that high-profile a man on that specific date in that specific political atmosphere? You could bury a battleship under that big a pile of coincidences.

Adopt a clonejack as your null hypothesis, and all of those coincidences cease to apply, and the only questions left to be answered are "who?" and "how?"

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#83 - 2012-11-14 07:02:15 UTC
I would say that the loss of Otro Gariushi hurt the State FAR more than the loss of a Nyx and Admiral Noir hurt the Federation.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-11-14 08:02:24 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I would say that the loss of Otro Gariushi hurt the State FAR more than the loss of a Nyx and Admiral Noir hurt the Federation.


He had no way of knowing that Otro Gariushi would die for sure. This was the first recorded instance of using a supercarrier to ram a station - he wouldn't have had a firm idea of any detail about the outcome. Almost everything we know about direct attacks on stations, in point of fact, is gleaned from what he allegedly did.

You're quite right that the death of Otro Gariushi might hurt the State in the long run (given that you've been saddled with a corrupt and venal leader whose fanaticism is costing his country billions of credits and thousands of lives every day) but in the short run it caused an undeniable military and economic resurgence.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#85 - 2012-11-14 10:48:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelisha
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I would say that the loss of Otro Gariushi hurt the State FAR more than the loss of a Nyx and Admiral Noir hurt the Federation.


If the whispers and banter of high-tier functionaries with Ishukone contact in their job description are anything to go by, the legacy of Gariushi-haan - may he rest in peace - being left to Mens Reppola is certainly indicative of your statement.

It pains me to see the mega-corporation once steered by a man who knew the limits of his own agenda, who pushed the boundaries of acceptability but never publicly over-stepped them, now led by an individual who has all but spat in the face of it's peers. As I said, however, that is if the rumors are true. It is my ardent hope that Ishukone will survive this transition state and come out of the flames renewed, as they have before.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-11-14 11:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
He had no way of knowing that Otro Gariushi would die for sure. This was the first recorded instance of using a supercarrier to ram a station - he wouldn't have had a firm idea of any detail about the outcome. Almost everything we know about direct attacks on stations, in point of fact, is gleaned from what he allegedly did.



Actually....

Hang on, capsuleer ships collide with each other, with stargates and with stations all the time. And bounce off, usually with considerable force and velocity because of the shield envelope interactions and the standing emergency warp fields.

Why the hell am I only just remembering that now? You can't ram a station and damage it under normal circumstances. There are failsafes in place to prevent exactly that scenario. Failsafes which to the best of my knowledge are not under the pilot's control.

So we've got a scenario where:


  1. A man who has tirelessly devoted his life to the peace process in a serious way...
  2. "just snaps" without warning (which is psychologically highly improbable).
  3. Forgets that his own survival and expertise would be of more value in aiding the Federation to win (strategically stupid)
  4. ALL of the navigational failsafes built into both ship and station fail simultaneously. (unlikely to the point of absurdity)


What's the rule? once is accident, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#87 - 2012-11-14 14:49:54 UTC
Jovian conspiracies everywhere.
Occam's razor was already dropped, so I'm not going to repeat it.
But keep in mind that there's a difference between benefitting from a dire situation - opportunism isn't a dirty word - and planning it beforehand.
Also, while something is improbable it is not impossible.
This includes someone who has lived a good life snapping at its peak. It also includes the concept of sleeper agents.

Tipping the scales by martyrdom - may be a strategically viable choice. See Tovil-Toba.

But your idea has a certain appeal. If Heth was really behind all of this you might want to praise him for his skill at political maneuvering, intrigue and his incredible black ops teams. Not bad for a primitive jackbooted thug, no?

Oh, and seeing how improbable the perceived reality is I trust the outcome of the battle of Mekhios was an inside job as well?

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Anslo
Scope Works
#88 - 2012-11-14 14:57:29 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

Hang on, capsuleer ships collide with each other, with stargates and with stations all the time. And bounce off, usually with considerable force and velocity because of the shield envelope interactions and the standing emergency warp fields.

Why the hell am I only just remembering that now? You can't ram a station and damage it under normal circumstances. There are failsafes in place to prevent exactly that scenario. Failsafes which to the best of my knowledge are not under the pilot's control.



It shouldn't be impossible to hack the fail safes and shut them off though...right? Please tell me I'm right.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-11-14 17:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Nothing is impossible, but hacking them or, say, sabotaging them with an EMP bomb snuck inside the shield envelope, automatically removes spontaneity from the equation. Hacking is not a quick process. Sabotage requires forethought.

The mere fact that the FNS Wandering Saint didn't just bounce off the station automatically removes from consideration the idea that this was a spur of the moment "sudden snap". It requires that somebody knew, or at least had good reason to believe, that the ship would ram the station with sufficient forewarning to be able to prepare an act of sabotage.

Rendering the good admiral either complicit in a planned act of suicide terrorism, or the victim of somebody else's.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-11-14 17:36:50 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Jovian conspiracies everywhere.


Did someone mention the Jovians? Because it certainly wasn't us.

Desiderya wrote:
Occam's razor was already dropped,


Occam's Razor states - contrary to the popular belief that it's "the simplest solution is usually the correct one" - that "plurality is not to be posited without necessity." As my good friend Verin has often pointed out, the assertion that Admiral Noir "just snapped" rapidly becomes so complex and requires the convergence of so many seperately improbable events that it rapidly becomes a less favourable answer to the question than the proposition of outside tampering.

The question of who is something that might not be answered so easily - it would require significant investigation.

Desiderya wrote:
Tipping the scales by martyrdom - may be a strategically viable choice. See Tovil-Toba.


But Tovil-Toba's actions were not intentional martyrdom, or at the very least I don't think he'd see it that way. I think one of the reasons Tovil-Toba is so widely respected by the Caldari (and perhaps, one of the reasons he's so despised by the Gallente) is that Tovil-Toba probably didn't think he was doing anything all that special. He just thought "so, Command says we need about a month of Gallente-free aerospace over Caldari Prime. How can I possibly make this happen?" and basically just came up with the answer of "suicidally dangerous attack on Gallente Prime with basically 0% chance of survival. Oh, alright then, if that's what's needed."

Desiderya wrote:
Not bad for a primitive jackbooted thug, no?


Again, I think you're putting words in our mouths. I've never insinuated that Heth is primitive - a jackbooted thug, certainly, but a very, very intelligent one. He's been able to strongarm seven out of eight megacorporations and put very considerable pressure on the only one that won't consistently play ball. The fact that his brains are still in his skull and his body isn't a thin, greasy smear of particulate across the outer surface of an asteroid somewhere in null-sec attests to that.

Desiderya wrote:
Oh, and seeing how improbable the perceived reality is I trust the outcome of the battle of Mekhios was an inside job as well?


Are you implying there wasn't more to Mekhios than meets the eye?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#91 - 2012-11-14 18:33:03 UTC
The comment regarding Jovians was hyperbolic.

I do think I know quite well what Tovil-Toba's actions meant and still mean and why they are so widely respected. It is much more than leading a suicide attack on a gallentean target, both in action as in meaning.



In the case of Noir who knows what goes on in a deluded mind. His dying words were pretty clear about his intentions.
The affair was excessively investigated by both state - Ishukone - and federal authorities.
If foul play was involved it is safe to assume that one of both sides would have called it out. Or, of course, they're all incompetent or involved in a mischievious plot together, which as you can very well assume as being laughably implausible.

My comment about Heth was not aimed at you personally - or someone else in this thread - but it echoes popular critique about Heth and the provist movement as you should know.

As such, feel free to continue spinning conspiracy theories. It is highly entertaining.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Anslo
Scope Works
#92 - 2012-11-14 18:37:06 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
The comment regarding Jovians was hyperbolic.

I do think I know quite well what Tovil-Toba's actions meant and still mean and why they are so widely respected. It is much more than leading a suicide attack on a gallentean target, both in action as in meaning.



In the case of Noir who knows what goes on in a deluded mind. His dying words were pretty clear about his intentions.
The affair was excessively investigated by both state - Ishukone - and federal authorities.
If foul play was involved it is safe to assume that one of both sides would have called it out. Or, of course, they're all incompetent or involved in a mischievious plot together, which as you can very well assume as being laughably implausible.

My comment about Heth was not aimed at you personally - or someone else in this thread - but it echoes popular critique about Heth and the provist movement as you should know.

As such, feel free to continue spinning conspiracy theories. It is highly entertaining.


Boy someone sure is snippy today.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Norrin Ellis
Doomheim
#93 - 2012-11-14 20:50:48 UTC
My father is Intaki. My mother is Gallente. The family has lived on Gallente Prime for a few generations now. From where I'm sitting, being Gallente means being born in Federation territory to Federation citizens. I'll be a human regardless of what national or ethnic label I wear.

To be fair, however, I'm very thankful for the basket of goods--cultural, economic, social, political, and so on--that I received simply by virtue of the lottery of origin.
Anslo
Scope Works
#94 - 2012-11-14 20:53:50 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
My father is Intaki. My mother is Gallente. The family has lived on Gallente Prime for a few generations now. From where I'm sitting, being Gallente means being born in Federation territory to Federation citizens. I'll be a human regardless of what national or ethnic label I wear.

To be fair, however, I'm very thankful for the basket of goods--cultural, economic, social, political, and so on--that I received simply by virtue of the lottery of origin.


Here here man. Though I have to say, you don't have to be born in the Fed in my opinion. If you're sick of your life and you want a new start, you come to the Fed, go through the process of becoming a citizen, and be welcomed to the biggest freaking melting pot this side of the galaxy!

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-11-14 21:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
A conspiracy theory is when one exhibits significant selection bias in order to support a logically untenable positive assertion.

In short, in order to qualify as a conspiracy theory there needs to be a positive component to the argument. I would need to be saying something like "The Jove did it!" or "It was all a conspiracy by the FIO" or whatever. There being no basis for such assertions beyond wild speculation, it would be only fair to accuse me of conspiracy theory.

But that is not what I am doing. What I am doing is called skepticism, which is precisely the opposite to conspiracy theory. Skepticism involves only saying "I do not think that the evidence for [Theory A] is yet strong enough to accept it."

I am completely neutral with regards to who. I am not proposing a specific guilty party, I am only saying that if an unbiased judge who was ignorant of the case history were presented with the evidence as it currently stands, they would not find sufficient grounds to convict Alexander Noir of the crime.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-11-14 21:42:13 UTC
Hey Verin, just to clarify, you're getting my emails, right?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#97 - 2012-11-14 21:50:49 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
From where I'm sitting, being Gallente means being born in Federation territory to Federation citizens.

That is not what it means. Being born in Federation territory to Federation citizens makes a person a Federation citizen him- or herself. In no way is that synonomous with being Gallente.
Norrin Ellis
Doomheim
#98 - 2012-11-14 22:51:26 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
Norrin Ellis wrote:
From where I'm sitting, being Gallente means being born in Federation territory to Federation citizens.

That is not what it means. Being born in Federation territory to Federation citizens makes a person a Federation citizen him- or herself. In no way is that synonomous with being Gallente.

It's absolutely synonymous if we're talking about national rather than ethnic Gallente. It is, after all, the Gallente Federation. If we're talking about ethnic Gallente, that's the gene lottery rather than the border lottery. I suppose I won that one, too. I'll have to thank my mother for that.
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#99 - 2012-11-14 23:05:33 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
It's absolutely synonymous if we're talking about national rather than ethnic Gallente. It is, after all, the Gallente Federation.

It should never have been called the "Gallente Federation" in the first place. That it happened at all was an act of gross cultural sabotage, one that's being furthered daily by every person who's eager to dilute our cultural identity in such a way.

Does the simple circumstance of being born in, or living in, the Intaki Syndicate make a person Intaki? It's the same thing.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#100 - 2012-11-16 01:31:36 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
That it happened at all was an act of gross cultural sabotage, one that's being furthered daily by every person who's eager to dilute our cultural identity in such a way.


Now you know how the rest of the cluster feels.

Katrina Oniseki