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Nerf Moaning Null Bears PLS

Author
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#641 - 2012-11-14 13:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Ghazu wrote:

Your reasons do not sufficiently explain what is so goddamn sacred about highsec manufacturing, everything in the game goes through nerfs, null sanctums, lvl 4 meta drops, FW, Incursion, even combat : supercaps/titan tracking/heavy missiles. Highsec can weather a nerf, no need to be all chicken little about it. Also I reiterate progress towards greater redesign changes can take place at the same time.


I was advocating nerfs on L4 and L5 before your character was created, just check the (old) missioning forums, when another nerf asking guy would post his L4 ISK per hour and I would confirm with my own.
I was in first line advocating nerfs on Incursions.

It's now weeks I am trying to convince people in game to accept pay to go gank miners in hi sec.

L4/L5 and incursion nerfs were necessary, the money printing was going too rampant.
Hi sec research got indirectly taxed with PI tax reflecting on fuels (plus it requires charters).
But industry does not create any money.

So it's not the ISK printing this time. But you can't nerf hi sec industry if you first don't implement proper industry in null sec, else what do you achieve? You just increase industry costs overboard but null sec will still be unable to produce because they just don't have the production lines to compete!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#642 - 2012-11-14 13:57:42 UTC
It's almost as if we haven't been saying that nullsec industry should be the first thing to be modified.

If only we had thought of that.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#643 - 2012-11-14 15:31:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

So it's not the ISK printing this time. But you can't nerf hi sec industry if you first don't implement proper industry in null sec, else what do you achieve? You just increase industry costs overboard but null sec will still be unable to produce because they just don't have the production lines to compete!



I see you offering an Auditing service on EVE.

As an Auditor IRL I really hope you're not. Only because I'm worried for whatever company that you work for.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#644 - 2012-11-14 15:57:25 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So it's not the ISK printing this time. But you can't nerf hi sec industry if you first don't implement proper industry in null sec, else what do you achieve? You just increase industry costs overboard but null sec will still be unable to produce because they just don't have the production lines to compete!


It's not as if anyone is saying leave nullsec industry in the abysmal state it currently is and *just* nerf highsec.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#645 - 2012-11-14 16:07:53 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So it's not the ISK printing this time. But you can't nerf hi sec industry if you first don't implement proper industry in null sec, else what do you achieve? You just increase industry costs overboard but null sec will still be unable to produce because they just don't have the production lines to compete!


It's not as if anyone is saying leave nullsec industry in the abysmal state it currently is and *just* nerf highsec.


Of course, but "anyone" are saying to nerf hi sec (anyway). I would not have started posting here if there weren't pages and pages only asking for hi sec nerf, period.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#646 - 2012-11-14 16:08:56 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

So it's not the ISK printing this time. But you can't nerf hi sec industry if you first don't implement proper industry in null sec, else what do you achieve? You just increase industry costs overboard but null sec will still be unable to produce because they just don't have the production lines to compete!



I see you offering an Auditing service on EVE.

As an Auditor IRL I really hope you're not. Only because I'm worried for whatever company that you work for.


No problem, come advertise your services on the MD forum and let's see how well you do.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#647 - 2012-11-14 16:15:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

No problem, come advertise your services on the MD forum and let's see how well you do.


No thanks, I don't love my job so much that when I come home I also want to spend my time auditing a company in a game.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#648 - 2012-11-14 16:40:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lord Zim wrote:

PLEXes are the thing which is directly linked to how much one month is worth. The more money is in the economy, the more money is needed to pay for one PLEX. The mining barge buff created an elevated need for PLEXes, and it, combined with all the other things which have happened in and around the economy, have all combined to give PLEXes a price inflation. This does not detract from the fact that an increasing amount of players have more and more money to spend, as is evidenced by the ever increasing sizes of fleets, the ever carelessness with which whole cap fleets are thrown around etc. 3-4 years ago whole capfleets being destroyed were disastrous, today people shrug it off and move on. 3-4 years ago losing a titan or a supercarrier was devastating, today it's "eh, already replaced".


3-4 years ago there were many things, first minerals were so cheap that ships costed less. Then CCP moved L5 to low sec and multi-nerfed L4 and removed drone poo but introduced incursions. That created big inflation.
But now those things have been nerfed or over nerfed (incursions). Even after the mini-rebuff it's common to see a system under an incursion per days. L4s yield a fraction (30% ish) of what they used to yield.
So it's not them that cause the "shrug off cap fleet losses".
Actually, mining is more effort : reward efficient than missioning these days (yet not an ISK faucet). I stopped missioning 6 months ago.

Also, your faucets vs sinks data is old, possibly from the time when incursions were at their peak.

The only "inflation" I see from effects is PLEX and that's also due to the never ending CCP initiatives pushing into buying more PLEXes.
Ships prices increase etc. are due to minerals rebalance with drone regions nerf and missions nerf.

If you see those null sec alliances losing whole fleets of titans without flinching, that's not caused by many muppets running L4s, it takes more than half an hour of L4 to pay for a Titan. Maybe it has more to do with all those renters botting the beegezus of PvE in their safe blueball space.


Lord Zim wrote:

And "the traffic of people moving around between null and hisec is minimally covered by JFs".


Why, are you suggesting everybody moving around null and hi sec are using a JF? Or just a minority of them?

Lord Zim wrote:

Pretty certain there's been absolutely no nerfs the past 5 years which have been similar to what I've proposed, except for CCP's .5% increase of market taxes which was completely and utterly ignored by the playerbase as a whole, and each and every change I've proposed have had a few very specific goals in mind. There's no change proposed just for the sake of proposing a change.


CCP should post updated data and - more important - data split between hi sec / null / low and WH. Then it's possible to see what to cut and where.
Wibla
Tactical Narcotics Team
#649 - 2012-11-14 16:47:39 UTC
The fact that you have been moderately successfull in writing gibbering bullshit about pretty graphs generated from market data does not mean that you actually have any real insight in how the game works (or even basic economic theory), which has been blatently demonstrated by your total inability to understand the difference between price inflation and monetary inflation.

The fact that you can go wherever you want by gates with subcaps and not pay anything to do it is one of the core elements of EVE, imposing a toll like you are proposing will only segregate the game on borders between empires, and not actually help measurably in fixing the real issues.

But you don't even know what the real issues are, because you don't actually play the game outside of circlejerking in MD and making bad posts elsewhere.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#650 - 2012-11-14 16:48:37 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:



Lord Zim wrote:

That means there's a surplus of nearly 1 trillion isk being generated. Per day. What would you call that?


I would call it not knowing what wallet segregation is about.





Gonna have to use a "wat" here.

Personally, I've just categorized that in the same category as his whole "the traffic of people moving around between null and hisec is minimally covered by JFs" comment. vOv


That's a topic sometimes covered on MD (for some reason a search won't return hits but *shrugs*) and several times on SCC-Lounge.

For a quite neat explanation a nice guy posted the concept here.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#651 - 2012-11-14 16:54:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Wibla wrote:
The fact that you have been moderately successfull in writing gibbering bullshit about pretty graphs generated from market data does not mean that you actually have any real insight in how the game works (or even basic economic theory), which has been blatently demonstrated by your total inability to understand the difference between price inflation and monetary inflation.


From: Monetary inflation

"Members of the Austrian School of economics make no such distinction, maintaining that monetary inflation is inflation".

These economist also clearly don't have any real insight.


Wibla wrote:

The fact that you can go wherever you want by gates with subcaps and not pay anything to do it is one of the core elements of EVE, imposing a toll like you are proposing will only segregate the game on borders between empires, and not actually help measurably in fixing the real issues.


Never said mine was the best idea, just *an* idea (you can actually go back and find the asterisked "a").

What I said instead is that I am trying to go beyond the "NERF!!!!!" cries and go for a more high level redesign (that might lead to nerfs too, but only as consequence).

Finally, by making people stay more on their empires it creates an attrition of goods which results in hi sec getting less convenient as a whole (hi sec logistics are one of, if not the strongest incentive to stay in hi sec).
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#652 - 2012-11-14 17:01:07 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Wibla wrote:
The fact that you have been moderately successfull in writing gibbering bullshit about pretty graphs generated from market data does not mean that you actually have any real insight in how the game works (or even basic economic theory), which has been blatently demonstrated by your total inability to understand the difference between price inflation and monetary inflation.


From: Monetary inflation

"Members of the Austrian School of economics make no such distinction, maintaining that monetary inflation is inflation".

These economist also clearly don't have any real insight.


They're austrians, so no. They don't.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#653 - 2012-11-14 17:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
corestwo wrote:

They're austrians, so no. They don't.


Even considering the two inflations separated, a 5% or so tax on manufacturing proposed above is not going to eat the excess at all.

Edit: actually, the complaint seems to be "see people nowadays just throw titans like they were frigates".

There would be needed a LOT of nerfing to undo years and years of money accumulation.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#654 - 2012-11-14 17:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
"This individual isk sink won't solve the massive monetary inflation on its own, therefore we shouldn't do it."

e: Eve itself is a perfect demonstrator that monetary inflation and price inflation are different things, by the way.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#655 - 2012-11-14 17:07:18 UTC
corestwo wrote:
"This individual isk sink won't solve the massive monetary inflation on its own, therefore we shouldn't do it."

e: Eve itself is a perfect demonstrator that monetary inflation and price inflation are different things, by the way.


Exactly. You want to chase and fix 100 holes in the bucket when what we need is a new bucket.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#656 - 2012-11-14 17:09:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
corestwo wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Wibla wrote:
The fact that you have been moderately successfull in writing gibbering bullshit about pretty graphs generated from market data does not mean that you actually have any real insight in how the game works (or even basic economic theory), which has been blatently demonstrated by your total inability to understand the difference between price inflation and monetary inflation.


From: Monetary inflation

"Members of the Austrian School of economics make no such distinction, maintaining that monetary inflation is inflation".

These economist also clearly don't have any real insight.


They're austrians, so no. They don't.


Precious goonie, you are all so much like Keynesians. Protect those in power so they don't have to work anyone, and screw everyone else so they can never touch the powerful. Bet before you became the new BoB you were singing a different tune.

Hopefully Keynesian principles in the real broken economy never makes it to EVE.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#657 - 2012-11-14 17:14:35 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
3-4 years ago there were many things, first minerals were so cheap that ships costed less.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. The first titan was built late 2006, there were less than 200 titans pre-dominion, we probably passed 1000 titans right as the turret nerf hit. A single ship costs between 70 and 100b for the hull. And then we can add the myriad of supercarriers which have been built at an even faster pace, for 20b a piece. I, personally, can pimpfit at least 1 supercarrier.

What does this tell you?

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Also, your faucets vs sinks data is old, possibly from the time when incursions were at their peak.

Incursions were a comparatively minor part of the faucet, it certainly was not 1 trillion per day.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The only "inflation" I see from effects is PLEX and that's also due to the never ending CCP initiatives pushing into buying more PLEXes.

You mean the initiatives CCP are constantly initiating to keep the price of plex down? I've got news for you, that's not the definition of "inflation".

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Ships prices increase etc. are due to minerals rebalance with drone regions nerf and missions nerf.

That's not monetary inflation, that's price inflation caused by resource scarcity.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Why, are you suggesting everybody moving around null and hi sec are using a JF? Or just a minority of them?

I said fairly early that you had absolutely no clue how much material is being moved to/from deklein per day. You said you did, but everything you've posted since shows that no, you do not have a clue.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#658 - 2012-11-14 17:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lord Zim wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
3-4 years ago there were many things, first minerals were so cheap that ships costed less.


CCP did not nerf L4 refinables and drone regions without reason. Trit hit 2.7 ISK pu at a certain point and high ends too did not fare well at all. So, while the russian credit card born titan may have costed a nice amount, Drakes and the many ships that make for the huge majority of the game costed less.

What does the titans and supercaps proliferation tell me? That the game got learned and explored, that the relevant production became widespread and min maxed. That PLEX facilitated money transfer too much and we can see fleets where fleet size = f(credit card size). That JFs and similar made routes shorter and cheaper.
That ISK in a stale game where blue ball are huge is generated in a vastly more efficient way than when small entities were constantly warring against each other.

That much ISK should never have reached null sec. Now it is. You can delete hi sec today and yet you'll have hundreds of supercaps for years.

Now it's too late, a nerf or 3 or 5 won't magically bring back the 50 vs 50 battleships fights.


Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Also, your faucets vs sinks data is old, possibly from the time when incursions were at their peak.

Incursions were a comparatively minor part of the faucet, it certainly was not 1 trillion per day.

"Were" is the keyword. These CSM minutes seem to provide a picture that is perfectly in line with what I see every day.


Lord Zim wrote:

You mean the initiatives CCP are constantly initiating to keep the price of plex down? I've got news for you, that's not the definition of "inflation".

Too bad their initiatives backfired and caused the opposite effect.


Lord Zim wrote:

That's not monetary inflation, that's price inflation caused by resource scarcity.


I know, that's an answer to your PLEX complaints.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#659 - 2012-11-14 17:43:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lord Zim wrote:

I said fairly early that you had absolutely no clue how much material is being moved to/from deklein per day. You said you did, but everything you've posted since shows that no, you do not have a clue.


I said fairly early that I don't give a crap to your pretending to be the only one and at the center of the universe.

Also you keep talking about material volume transited while I talk about travels made (that before JFs would be riskier => more expensive and dangerous => more ISK lost).

Basically you do your top best to misrepresent everything I type and then puff your chest in your awesome knowledge (that so far resulted in 3 suggestions in cross, Arith in one post has said 100 times more).
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#660 - 2012-11-14 18:23:51 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
What does the titans and supercaps proliferation tell me? That the game got learned and explored, that the relevant production became widespread and min maxed. That PLEX facilitated money transfer too much and we can see fleets where fleet size = f(credit card size). That JFs and similar made routes shorter and cheaper.

Somewhere between 75 and 100 trillion isk have changed hands in 3 years to fund the titans and supercarriers that were built after dominion hit. That money isn't spawned out of thin air, that's isk other players have parted with.

Production of a supercap isn't difficult or mentally challenging, it just involves having sufficient isk to fetch the resources.

That ISK in a stale game where blue ball are huge is generated in a vastly more efficient way than when small entities were

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
"Were" is the keyword. These CSM minutes seem to provide a picture that is perfectly in line with what I see every day.

You mean the recession the game went through as CCP basically bent the foundation of the economy over the table and went balls deep with no lube?

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You mean the initiatives CCP are constantly initiating to keep the price of plex down? I've got news for you, that's not the definition of "inflation".

Too bad their initiatives backfired and caused the opposite effect.

Actually, their initiatives have helped keep the price of plexes down compared to what it would've been if they hadn't., for now.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat