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Making missions more challenging and reducing the isk faucet

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-11-12 22:22:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
CCP Diagoras specifically attributed ~9 trillion a month to sleeper sites last spring, no?
Yes, and it's still just NPC buy orders. It's not some special or unique faucet.

WH space would still be the unique location that originates the items sold to those specific buy orders, would it not?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#142 - 2012-11-12 22:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
WH space would still be the unique location that originates the items sold to those specific buy orders, would it not?
Sure. So what?

The point was that, out of the four ISK faucets, none of them are tied to any particular part of space. The whole thing started with someone taking offence to the notion of fiddling with mission bounties on the assumption that doing so would remove all ISK faucets from highsec (and only highsec). I pointed out that this was a silly notion because, just like everywhere else, mission bounties is just one of many ISK faucets that exist in highsec, because all of them exist everywhere. Blue loot was suggested as an example of a unique ISK faucet, but they're not — they're just NPC sell orders, which (…drum roll…) exist everywhere.

Remove mission bounties and you affect null, low, and highsec. Highsec is not alone in being affected.
Removing mission bounties still leaves a plethora of ISK faucets: non-mission bountes, NPC buy orders, insurance, and agent rewards. All of these exist in highsec as well (unsurprisingly since, again, all of them exist everywhere) so that would not suddenly leave highsec ISK-faucet-less.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2012-11-12 23:09:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
WH space would still be the unique location that originates the items sold to those specific buy orders, would it not?
Sure. So what?

The point was that, out of the four ISK faucets, none of them are tied to any particular part of space. The whole thing started with someone taking offence to the notion of fiddling with mission bounties on the assumption that doing so would remove all ISK faucets from highsec (and only highsec). I pointed out that this was a silly notion because, just like everywhere else, mission bounties is just one of many ISK faucets that exist in highsec, because all of them exist everywhere. Blue loot was suggested as an example of a unique ISK faucet, but they're not — they're just NPC sell orders, which (…drum roll…) exist everywhere.

Remove mission bounties and you affect null, low, and highsec. Highsec is not alone in being affected.
Removing mission bounties still leaves a plethora of ISK faucets: non-mission bountes, NPC buy orders, insurance, and agent rewards. All of these exist in highsec as well (unsurprisingly since, again, all of them exist everywhere) so that would not suddenly leave highsec ISK-faucet-less.

I would say that for the very reasons you mention blue loot buy orders are more tied to WH's than other faucets are tied to the type of space you are in. As you point out bounties can be obtained anywhere rats are purely through activity in that location. For WH's this isn't the same. You either had to be involved in WH content or involve yourself with someone who was to use that faucet.

The rest I have no objection to.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#144 - 2012-11-12 23:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I would say that for the very reasons you mention blue loot buy orders are more tied to WH's than other faucets are tied to the type of space you are in. As you point out bounties can be obtained anywhere rats are purely through activity in that location. For WH's this isn't the same. You either had to be involved in WH content or involve yourself with someone who was to use that faucet.
Fair enough. I just don't think of it as a separate faucet.

I mean, sure, we can break down the NPC buy order category into numerous subsets, much like how we can break down, say, sales taxes into “tax from CN Antimatter trades” to figure out how much (additional) ISK is sunk because we have the LP stores… but the sink is not the store in that case — it's the market. Same goes for the blue loot: the faucet isn't W-space — it's NPC buy orders.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#145 - 2012-11-12 23:48:17 UTC
You don't need more isk faucets, you need more "smart" players faucets. Those are far too smart I don't even know why they're loosing their time with Eve and Eve economics blahbling tons of stuff for months and nothing moves.
Meanwhile some players buy/build/kill and have fun.

Lol

brb
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#146 - 2012-11-13 00:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
WH space would still be the unique location that originates the items sold to those specific buy orders, would it not?
Sure. So what?

The point was that, out of the four ISK faucets, none of them are tied to any particular part of space. The whole thing started with someone taking offence to the notion of fiddling with mission bounties on the assumption that doing so would remove all ISK faucets from highsec (and only highsec). I pointed out that this was a silly notion because, just like everywhere else, mission bounties is just one of many ISK faucets that exist in highsec, because all of them exist everywhere. Blue loot was suggested as an example of a unique ISK faucet, but they're not — they're just NPC sell orders, which (…drum roll…) exist everywhere.

Remove mission bounties and you affect null, low, and highsec. Highsec is not alone in being affected.
Removing mission bounties still leaves a plethora of ISK faucets: non-mission bountes, NPC buy orders, insurance, and agent rewards. All of these exist in highsec as well (unsurprisingly since, again, all of them exist everywhere) so that would not suddenly leave highsec ISK-faucet-less.

I would say that for the very reasons you mention blue loot buy orders are more tied to WH's than other faucets are tied to the type of space you are in. As you point out bounties can be obtained anywhere rats are purely through activity in that location. For WH's this isn't the same. You either had to be involved in WH content or involve yourself with someone who was to use that faucet.

The rest I have no objection to.


I might point out that you assertion that bounties exist everywhere is incorrect, in that wormholes don't have bounties. Neither do they have missions and mission payouts or LP. Blue loot is the only thing coming out of Wormholes that could be counted as a Faucet.

Also, the rest of the faucets also require that you become involved in them, or with someone is involved in them to access the benefits of them. If you don't mission, you're not going to get payed out for Missioning; if you don't rat, you will get no bounties.

It's pretty obvious that not being involved will mean you don't benefit from it. Not directly at any rate. Also, anyone can scan down a wormhole and rat the sleepers there provided it is a class they can solo, or they have friends to help them with it. You don't have to live in one.

I was actually thinking the other day, of training players to make use of Wormholes without living in them. Purely the process of scanning them down, entering and scanning into a larger class of wormhole, ratting the Sleepers throughout, then exiting with the loot. Sort of a Wormhole expedition corporation idea.

Then I realized I don't have the time for that sort of thing, let alone the dedication or contacts to arrange something like that. Also, for some reason, nobody will entertain that sort of thing without a long proven track record which can't exist unless you've done it. Go figure. Smile

Being involved in EVE again.. *wistful sigh*
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Ave Kathrina
My Ass Is On Fire
#147 - 2012-11-13 01:09:26 UTC
Amateratsu wrote:
Reduce the number of gated rooms - there is nothing more boring than having to slowboat 40 - 50km to each gate in multiple rooms.

Reduce the number of npc,s - but make them much tougher, instead of multiple rooms filled with 20+ npc,s have 1 (maybe 2) rooms with 2 to 4 groups of 3 or 4 npc,s, but make those npc,s as tough as the previous 20+ and take as long to kill. Give them the ehp / resists and dps of an equivalent player fitted ship.

Inprove Npc AI. - the upcoming AI changes are a good start, but the pilot of an npc should be thinking hey i'm getting hammered, im warping out to rep up... give them the abbility to warp / micro jump out of range to rep up and then return to the battle rather than the current lemmings to the slaughter.

So you will have to tackle / scram them to hold them in place.
Have only 1 group aggro at a time, unless you get too close or shoot at another group, in which can your in serious risk of getting your ass handed to you on a platter.

Remove / reduce bounties - remove the isk faucet that everyone complains about, compensate by increasing LP payout and add lots more shinnies to the LP Stores, That way the isk comes from trading those shinnies with other players instead of an isk faucet.

Reduce the quantity of tags required to purchase LP store items - Seriously, the quantity of tags required for most items in the LP stores is ludicrous and can only be obtained by buying them of the market which renders a lot of the LP store items worthless and cheaper to buy from the player market than the LP Store. increase LP required to buy items, reduce isk / tags required.

TLDR. Reduce # NPC's, make them much toughter, remove / reduce bountys, increase LP Reward / Items to compensate
Heat shields activated, flame away


1 - fit an AB you scrub
I've done some really stupid shit in this game.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2012-11-13 01:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Mars Theran wrote:

I might point out that you assertion that bounties exist everywhere is incorrect, in that wormholes don't have bounties. Neither do they have missions and mission payouts or LP. Blue loot is the only thing coming out of Wormholes that could be counted as a Faucet.

As I said they could be obtained anywhere rats are, but of course that precludes those rats have bounties to be collected. As the NPC's in WH's do not then that makes WH's not violate my statement as there are no bounty giving rats there.
Mars Theran wrote:

Also, the rest of the faucets also require that you become involved in them, or with someone is involved in them to access the benefits of them. If you don't mission, you're not going to get payed out for Missioning; if you don't rat, you will get no bounties.

Again, the statement was about things being more globally available. Not completely globally available mind you, but other faucets have greater availability. I can kill a bounty rat in highsec and receive a bounty, I can do the same in low or null. If any one between high, low, null and WH space is eliminated I can still collect bounties and mission rewards. Blue loot on the other hand still works if any amongst high/low/null are eliminated but has an issue if WH is eliminated. That was the issue I was pointing out. That blue loot is exclusive to WH's, thus divorcing blue loot income from being a WH income didn't make sense.
Mars Theran wrote:

It's pretty obvious that not being involved will mean you don't benefit from it. Not directly at any rate. Also, anyone can scan down a wormhole and rat the sleepers there provided it is a class they can solo, or they have friends to help them with it. You don't have to live in one.

Never said you did have to live there, just said you have to be involved with the game content there or someone who was. Involved doesn't require living there.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#149 - 2012-11-13 04:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:

I might point out that you assertion that bounties exist everywhere is incorrect, in that wormholes don't have bounties. Neither do they have missions and mission payouts or LP. Blue loot is the only thing coming out of Wormholes that could be counted as a Faucet.

As I said they could be obtained anywhere rats are, but of course that precludes those rats have bounties to be collected. As the NPC's in WH's do not then that makes WH's not violate my statement as there are no bounty giving rats there.
Mars Theran wrote:

Also, the rest of the faucets also require that you become involved in them, or with someone is involved in them to access the benefits of them. If you don't mission, you're not going to get payed out for Missioning; if you don't rat, you will get no bounties.

Again, the statement was about things being more globally available. Not completely globally available mind you, but other faucets have greater availability. I can kill a bounty rat in highsec and receive a bounty, I can do the same in low or null. If any one between high, low, null and WH space is eliminated I can still collect bounties and mission rewards. Blue loot on the other hand still works if any amongst high/low/null are eliminated but has an issue if WH is eliminated. That was the issue I was pointing out. That blue loot is exclusive to WH's, thus divorcing blue loot income from being a WH income didn't make sense.
Mars Theran wrote:

It's pretty obvious that not being involved will mean you don't benefit from it. Not directly at any rate. Also, anyone can scan down a wormhole and rat the sleepers there provided it is a class they can solo, or they have friends to help them with it. You don't have to live in one.

Never said you did have to live there, just said you have to be involved with the game content there or someone who was. Involved doesn't require living there.


There are only 4 types of Blue loot that come from wormholes iirc. Each has its value to be sure, but they don't account for all the available blue loot by any means.

If you are suggesting that the loot should be removed, then that is actually fine with me. It isn't like there are no other means of income generation from wormholes. The Blue loot does help those who are living there with the associated costs however. The removal would likely cause a few problems, but those could easily be circumvented by increasing the number of anomaly spawns, (making wormholes generally more interesting overall), or by increasing the drops and salvage from those sites that do spawn.

Making it easier to mine gas would help greatly too, as currently, it is a long tedious process that usually involves visiting other wormholes and multiple trips to empty cargo at the POS. That goes nearly triple for Grav sites as they spawn infrequently, and having them amount to anything requires a great deal of storage space. Likely that has been significantly mitigated by the changes to mining barges since I was last in a wormhole.

I don't think anyone would complain if those changes were made, aside from those who make extra ISK by soloing C3s and such.
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DerArt1st
Doomheim
#150 - 2012-11-13 11:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: DerArt1st
Quote:
Quote:
Feb ccp tweet 150ishb missions 301b incusrions so 450b big jump to 600b
So in other words, you have not read a single word; you are completely unfamiliar with concepts such as “mission rewards”, “bounties”, “incursions”, and ”multiplication”; you do not understand how ratios work, how they can be used, or how to calculate them.

Quote:
were is the 900b isk day fact?
Already answered: same place as all official facts.

Quote:
were u get the x3-4
Already answered. In fact, you have already read missed it and not understood a word of it. I am not qualified to teach on such alow educational level so I can only refer you to your primary-school teacher.

Quote:
why read up reward structure of incusions?
Because you think they are in any way relevant to the question of bounties.




Y U NO HAS EDUCATION?

I really wonder why everybody is still argueing with that troll.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-11-13 11:51:19 UTC
Remove bounties from mission rats, keep mission rewards at the same level. That way mission runners will still have isk for LP turn in & it will actually give them a reason to loot & salvage.

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CaptTalonKarrade
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-11-25 07:44:15 UTC
The people on Dev Team are not thinking about the player base economy or thinking about the long term horrible ramacation it will have on the game. The market is player base. if they take out the bounties on npc they gonna hurt the player economy with a severe backlass along with the player base it self . there will be less people with buy orders for minerals and ice products which means all the market orders will be fillied so there willl days maybe weeks on the market of noone selling the minerals to fullfille buy orders means people who use to mine to make money will bored and quit this game, and play a game that does care about there player base. and if there is less miners means builders are getting alot less resources they need for the ammo and ships to build for the pvp players to fly and shot means a drop in pvp which means more drop in player base which means a lost of revenue to people in ccp and in iceland which means layoffs of real life people which mean lost of revenue if if any of them play eve. Which proves an Excellent Game like EVE is going down hill because the dev dont think in long term effects and really only to to whiners who compalin that there guns are doing less damge than missiles or this ship is to powerful when not becuase they didnt get the right skills to make just as good as this other players ship. eve works fine they way it is. stop trying to fix something thats not Broken and stop messing around with game mechanics. the leave the game alone. adding PI was good adding factional farwar and incursion was good trying to destroy a Races combat design or The Economy is bad. Head my warning " DONT TRY TO FIX SOMETHING THAT IS NOT BY DEFINITION BROKEN>
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#153 - 2012-11-25 09:40:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Quote:
Missions already earn considerably less then they did years ago and if people are to afford pvp they need an income.
Nah. Missions earn about the same — it has just become relatively worse compared to the new means of making money that have been introduced.


Not true, I and another guy proved L4 missions were too rewarding and got them nerfed 3 times since 2009, so no, they don't earn about the same. They lost a good 30-40% of reward.

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