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CSM Minutes: Offgrid boosting.

Author
Letrange
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#261 - 2012-11-12 19:58:40 UTC
In all the whine about the 5% being reduced to 2% you missed a few things. For one thing T3 will be able to mix and match 3 types of boosters and the T2 only 2 types. So the claymore (or sleipnir) can have a mix of Skirmish and Shield gang boosters with both getting boni. Admittedly you're implant will only affect 1 type, but it still will allow you to get mixed boni, in much smaller gangs.

Hell, Gallente gangs can look forward to T3 giving armor and skirmish boosts simultaneously. Squadron and fleet crafting is going to get REALLY interesting come Dec 4th and when the BC/BS/CS/SC balancing hits sometime in the new year? It's going to hit high gear.
Bella Dera
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2012-12-29 20:42:45 UTC
Why don't all you whiners about OGB's just go ahead and make your own game. I personally think CCP is doing a great job, jeesh what a bunch of baby's.


Go CCP!!!!!
Feffri
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#263 - 2012-12-29 22:21:41 UTC
1. I think ogb is fine but they need to make it so that it's as easy to scan down as a regular cruiser. That by itself would take away the advantage.. and add a lot more risk the ogb would have to constantly monitor d scan because at cruiser size you could get one scan hit.

2. Switch cs boost bonus with t3
3. no boosting in pos

That would fix it's overpowerdness (if thats a word) :)
Tsobai Hashimoto
Perkone
Caldari State
#264 - 2012-12-29 23:16:44 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:
This topic again? I'll give it the same reply i always do.

Remove the Command processor modules, almost every percieved abuse of- or malbalance in the system relate back to that one module. The module effectively handicap the ship that use it to do nothing but boost, while boost more.

I think alot of you ascribe more to the ability to stay off grid than what it has earnt. The problem is rather that doing so allow you to boost more, so people will explore those options well before they explore eligable alternatives. I don't mind that alts can carry out the role of a main, in part. I mind it, in case of boosting, when it has become more effective to use alts for it. Where alts will completely obscure the use of a main in the same role, and rear it's ugly head at other parts of the game (such as the market; look at mindlink pricing - it may have something to do with the decline of supply from L4, but it also have alot to do with demand, and risk-confident alts happily paying those sums while on-grid mains hesitate).

Remove that module and you will effectively cut the performance of exploitation (i mean it as cutting down rainforests, not as breaking rules) by a good two thirds, while positively directing the community toward on-grid use without removing the ability to run off-grid boosts for groups who lack manpower or utilize strategy that involve it.

In short, the problem is that off-grid boosting allow three times as many links on average thanks to the Command processor, not that it could exist as an option with equal boost performance but one less ship fullfilling additional roles on the grid. Prior to related issues, such as market splash-off, my groups always used to put at least some boosting on grid and utilize the benefit from the extra module slots you also get on grid.

Removing off-grid boosting completely, or swapping bonuses between CS and Tech III will, as other people put it: only reinforce existing trends and popular gameplay (ie., feed the blob). I'm keen on Tech III as focus and CS as blanket.

Remove Command processors (and seed mindlinks in the LP-stores) and you will endorse a balance between alts and mains as well as CS and Tech III, without once again massively disrupt balance between small- and large scale to kill off interaction between the two, and get less ships in space.

Haven't you fed the blob enough Ytterbium? Bubble changes, etc. Ugh

Sir, a fleet command ship can natively fit 3 links without the need for command processors. Removing command processors and you will have offgrid claymores linking instead of lokis, who the **** cares. The only difference is that you cant scout iwth them and will need a THIRD client for that role.




a claymore is pretty easy to probe down. and with being able to tank. is more likely to be useful in fleet near logi. than alone and probed down in 10seconds


and allowing t3 to boost one link well and semi hidden you still allow small gangs to have some boost semi safe
mind seeing a small sig bloom from link use. maybe 5%

i wouldnt
Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#265 - 2012-12-30 01:26:39 UTC
Off grid boosting must be removed from the game. Simple as that.

Boosting modules should have a max range when fitted on a ship. Example 100Km default , the up to 150km with best skills
jjohnpaul xvii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#266 - 2012-12-31 11:37:40 UTC
Please CCPz dont forget to remove all implants and ammo and ships. I demand heads or tails in space. Simple as that.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#267 - 2012-12-31 12:07:07 UTC
Pretty easy to spot the OGB (ab)users in this thread.

Stupid mechanic IMO.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#268 - 2012-12-31 17:22:31 UTC
Gunship wrote:
....Boosting modules should have a max range when fitted on a ship. Example 100Km default , the up to 150km with best skills

Would prefer it be the default grid size to give them at least some space-buffer while people re-learn how to pilot a ship that needs to be there but necessarily do much other than just that.

Biggest hurdle will be Grid-Fu shenanigans .. some insane defensive options exist regardless of solution to links (range, grid or combination).
jjohnpaul xvii wrote:
Please CCPz dont forget to remove all implants and ammo and ships. I demand heads or tails in space. Simple as that.

Wonder of the FoTM lobbies will ever update their talking point slides .. I swear it has been the same nonsense every time a change has been proposed/discussed since I started Big smile
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#269 - 2013-01-01 15:55:07 UTC
jjohnpaul xvii wrote:
Please CCPz dont forget to remove all implants and ammo and ships. I demand heads or tails in space. Simple as that.

Cannot win without 2 boosters sitting in POS? Big smile
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#270 - 2013-01-01 16:33:46 UTC
So much hate. They announced the 5% will go to 2%. That is a pretty significant nerf. I say make it so that if you leave the presence of your booster the effects fade after 'x' amount of time and call it good.
jjohnpaul xvii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#271 - 2013-01-02 12:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: jjohnpaul xvii
Vizvig wrote:
jjohnpaul xvii wrote:
Please CCPz dont forget to remove all implants and ammo and ships. I demand heads or tails in space. Simple as that.

Cannot win without 2 boosters sitting in POS? Big smile


Your not that far off Vizvig but you and I probably have very different definitions of ''winning'':

These days I want to enjoy my fights, not necessarily 'win' them as you might see it. ''Winning'' to me is being able to take and get a lot fights in the first place (irrespective of the final outcome of those fights) and to have a reasonable chance of enjoying myself during those fights (ie not helplessly dying in the first 5 seconds) preferably against a superior enemy force (either numbers or ship types).

Does removal of OGB reduce that ability to take fights in the first place against a numerically superior force? Yes, definitely - so i guess you are partially correct. But I see anything that reduces engagement envelopes further downwards against numerical advantage as a ''lose'' - because larger gang fighting is not the way i primarily tend to play the game. Personally, I cant see the fun whilst not making your own decisions. I still gank people from within bloobs of course - its EVE! - but its no where near as enjoyable as frantically clicking in space whilst fighting outnumbered, not even a patch. I implore you to try it out, IMHO its the biggest buzz in game.


The majority of people (myself included) will be able to deal with changes though Vizviq. Your not having my stuffz! Big smile Most people can and will continue to adapt play styles, approaches, ship fits, gang comps, tactics, and thinking as they have always done with change.

Overwhelmingly, change is good and will probably open up new doors in the longer term to creative thinkers. I think a larger rude awakening will come for the F1 hysteria brigade who think that OGB is the only reason they are 'losing' fights in the first place. When OGB goes, where are all these people going to hide? Blink
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#272 - 2013-01-03 01:22:08 UTC
I hate OGB but I wouldn't mind as much if there was a visual effect.
Less fun for me and everyone else that I just skip systems with possible boosting ships on scan.
Jones Bones
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-01-03 12:05:50 UTC
The forums and EFT are full of fits that are "meant for T3 boosts", that's an awesome sign of balanced gameplay. As a long time abuser of offgrid Loki boosts, I think the mechanic is ******* ********. You guys crying about how any change favors the blob are bad. In ye olde days proper nano gangs would have a Claymore in fleet and on grid AND they would still take on blobs.

The reality is off grid boosts punish new and/or poor players. They're bad, and you should feel bad. You bads.
Corelyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#274 - 2013-01-03 18:09:31 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
The forums and EFT are full of fits that are "meant for T3 boosts", that's an awesome sign of balanced gameplay. As a long time abuser of offgrid Loki boosts, I think the mechanic is ******* ********. You guys crying about how any change favors the blob are bad. In ye olde days proper nano gangs would have a Claymore in fleet and on grid AND they would still take on blobs.

The reality is off grid boosts punish new and/or poor players. They're bad, and you should feel bad. You bads.


Everyone agrees. But the users want to keep using.

The EvE Buffbot can't stay.
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#275 - 2013-01-03 19:32:35 UTC
I don't necessarily mind offgrid boosting in principal, nor do I mind that the boosts are significant. However, under no circumstances should you be able to activate booster modules from inside a pos forcefield, and under no circumstances should it require virtues and max skills to probe down a t3 booster. If someone is offgrid boosting, then they should be probably and killable. If you need virtues to scan down a ship, then even with virtues scanning them down will be slow. OGBs are expensive ships that take lots of skills to train, but the chatter seems to be that the payoff is huge and the risk is minimal. The question is then how to properly address OGBs ?

reduce boost range to 14.5 AU - I don't really like this idea. The benefit is that the proper use of OGBs would require a bit more thought, and anyone fighting you will be sure to know you've got an OGB.

increase sig radius or reduce sensor strength when activating a gang boost module - I really like this idea since you can turn off your boosts to avoid being scanned, but it would harm balance of on-grid booster ships, which would be unfortunate.

Further adjust scanning formula so that virtues are never a requirement - I prefer "hard to scan" over "impossible without virtues and max skills."

Also, I don't really like the idea of an offgrid booster bouncing safes while pursued by probers with his boosts staying active. Its easier to bounce safes than to chase a guy bouncing safes. The consolation is that the guy bouncing safes is useless, but if he's boosting at 100% effectiveness, then that's a problem. I don't know the best way to address this, I don't know if capacitor becomes a factor in maintaining boosts, or if warping short distances makes it easier for the probe guy to track you, just food for thought.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Zoe Panala
Blobcats
#276 - 2013-01-03 22:23:41 UTC
Batelle wrote:
I don't necessarily mind offgrid boosting in principal, nor do I mind that the boosts are significant. However, under no circumstances should you be able to activate booster modules from inside a pos forcefield, and under no circumstances should it require virtues and max skills to probe down a t3 booster. If someone is offgrid boosting, then they should be probably and killable. If you need virtues to scan down a ship, then even with virtues scanning them down will be slow. OGBs are expensive ships that take lots of skills to train, but the chatter seems to be that the payoff is huge and the risk is minimal. The question is then how to properly address OGBs ?

reduce boost range to 14.5 AU - I don't really like this idea. The benefit is that the proper use of OGBs would require a bit more thought, and anyone fighting you will be sure to know you've got an OGB.

increase sig radius or reduce sensor strength when activating a gang boost module - I really like this idea since you can turn off your boosts to avoid being scanned, but it would harm balance of on-grid booster ships, which would be unfortunate.

Further adjust scanning formula so that virtues are never a requirement - I prefer "hard to scan" over "impossible without virtues and max skills."

Also, I don't really like the idea of an offgrid booster bouncing safes while pursued by probers with his boosts staying active. Its easier to bounce safes than to chase a guy bouncing safes. The consolation is that the guy bouncing safes is useless, but if he's boosting at 100% effectiveness, then that's a problem. I don't know the best way to address this, I don't know if capacitor becomes a factor in maintaining boosts, or if warping short distances makes it easier for the probe guy to track you, just food for thought.


tl dr

problem is not ogb, problem is that your Loki works from 64 AU, but my Scorpion does not. We need ECM to get balanced!
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#277 - 2013-01-03 23:06:19 UTC
Zoe Panala wrote:
tl dr

problem is not ogb, problem is that your Loki works from 64 AU, but my Scorpion does not. We need ECM to get balanced!

Don't forget logistics and all other action that influence action directly or indirectly (ie. everything in EVe Big smile)
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#278 - 2013-01-05 06:22:01 UTC
You can't scan down a cloaked ship.

Currently off-grid boosting provides almost 0 risk and reams of benefits.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#279 - 2013-01-08 14:42:28 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
The forums and EFT are full of fits that are "meant for T3 boosts", that's an awesome sign of balanced gameplay. As a long time abuser of offgrid Loki boosts, I think the mechanic is ******* ********. You guys crying about how any change favors the blob are bad. In ye olde days proper nano gangs would have a Claymore in fleet and on grid AND they would still take on blobs.

The reality is off grid boosts punish new and/or poor players. They're bad, and you should feel bad. You bads.

Thats true.


jjohnpaul xvii wrote:
Does removal of OGB reduce that ability to take fights in the first place against a numerically superior force? Yes, definitely

Let say the truth.

Those who use ogb mostly time sitting in single system, and ganking noobgangs without ogb, ant they are rapidly dying out.

Now poor but experienced gang prefer dont take a fight against hostile gang with the same numbers, they prefer gank single ships.

Why?

Try to bite off something from nagafleet w boost and couple of logistics.
Why you will to do while all gangs become boosted? I know: you will be ganking cyno's.
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2013-01-08 15:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: psycho freak
Xuixien wrote:
You can't scan down a cloaked ship.

Currently off-grid boosting provides almost 0 risk and reams of benefits.



I to boost while cloaked come back when you have a clue

to make the t3 hard to scan takes full implant set and sig mods and even then they are not impossible to scan down just alot harder to

and all this crap about ogb in pos yea like we take a pos with us on roams lul

all these lazy and tight fisted players to useless and lasy to invest in they own ogb toon and just cry nurf your just as bad as the carbare crying for change

but wotevrt we who use ogb will adapt same as we allways have

what will be the next thing you pansys cry to nurf i wonder

also ppl claiming ogb is unfair on new or poorer players is bullsh#t just like hg slaves are unfair on poor or or low sp player or t2 ammo to low sp player or faction mods to poor player comon be real for the time invested and isk and r.l money ogb are fine

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it