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Moderation discussion thread

First post First post
Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2012-11-12 11:14:27 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
CCP Guard wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
That is the ONLY proper way to deal with this issue. Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.

I don't accept that.


Tough.

And this attitude is itself unacceptable.


I'm sorry you feel that way. Eterne explained what's up and it's really not just a personal choice for each person whether to accept the rules or not.

Except what Eterne said has nothing to do with the rules.

EDIT: Nevermind, the first sentence is, but I was referring to the second sentence of Eterne's post.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#262 - 2012-11-12 11:16:06 UTC
Hey Guard. Just wanted to say it was neat to meet you in Vegas. If you accept one of my wardec transfer corps into CCP Alliance I can get rid of all your wardecs and trolls for you ^^
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#263 - 2012-11-12 11:17:07 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
That is the ONLY proper way to deal with this issue. Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.

I don't accept that.


Tough.

And this attitude is itself unacceptable.


You mean the attitude of carefully explaining what the rules and procedures are and then cutting you off when you go 'waaah they shouldnt apply to me because I'm such a special snowflake'

Grow the hell up.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2012-11-12 11:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Darek Castigatus wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
That is the ONLY proper way to deal with this issue. Continuing to hound ISD when you have been explicitly informed that what you are claiming is not possible is swiftly approaching harassment.

I don't accept that.


Tough.

And this attitude is itself unacceptable.


You mean the attitude of carefully explaining what the rules and procedures are and then cutting you off when you go 'waaah they shouldnt apply to me because I'm such a special snowflake'

Grow the hell up.

"I don't accept that" the discussion qualifies as harassment.
Fair?

So no, the attitude of "we don't care that you take exception to our arbitrarily defining your civic participation in a discussion as harassment".

Even bungee cords don't stretch that far.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#265 - 2012-11-12 11:28:49 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:

You mean the attitude of carefully explaining what the rules and procedures are and then cutting you off when you go 'waaah they shouldnt apply to me because I'm such a special snowflake'

Grow the hell up.

"I don't accept that" the discussion qualifies as harassment.
Fair?

So no, the attitude of "we don't care that you take exception to our arbitrarily defining your civic participation in a discussion as harassment".

Even bungee cords don't stretch that far.


When your participation consists of the internet equivilant of going 'nu-uh' over and over again I think I can forgive CCP for no longer giving a damn about your opinion. If you really want to pick that particular hill to plant your cross on then dont let me stop you, however I will reserve the right to go'I told you so' when you get banned.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#266 - 2012-11-12 11:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Darek Castigatus wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:

You mean the attitude of carefully explaining what the rules and procedures are and then cutting you off when you go 'waaah they shouldnt apply to me because I'm such a special snowflake'

Grow the hell up.

"I don't accept that" the discussion qualifies as harassment.
Fair?

So no, the attitude of "we don't care that you take exception to our arbitrarily defining your civic participation in a discussion as harassment".

Even bungee cords don't stretch that far.


When your participation consists of the internet equivilant of going 'nu-uh' over and over again I think I can forgive CCP for no longer giving a damn about your opinion. If you really want to pick that particular hill to plant your cross on then dont let me stop you, however I will reserve the right to go'I told you so' when you get banned.

More arbitrary definitions. What are you getting out of this thread? It certainly seems like you're completely disinterested in an honest moderating team.

I reserve the right to go "I told you so" when you notice your posts disappearing and you have no idea why because they were on-topic and didn't break any rules.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Marbuel
Australian Belt Strippers
Warped Intentions
#267 - 2012-11-12 11:49:28 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:

You mean the attitude of carefully explaining what the rules and procedures are and then cutting you off when you go 'waaah they shouldnt apply to me because I'm such a special snowflake'

Grow the hell up.

"I don't accept that" the discussion qualifies as harassment.
Fair?

So no, the attitude of "we don't care that you take exception to our arbitrarily defining your civic participation in a discussion as harassment".

Even bungee cords don't stretch that far.


When your participation consists of the internet equivilant of going 'nu-uh' over and over again I think I can forgive CCP for no longer giving a damn about your opinion. If you really want to pick that particular hill to plant your cross on then dont let me stop you, however I will reserve the right to go'I told you so' when you get banned.

More arbitrary definitions. What are you getting out of this thread? It certainly seems like you're completely disinterested in an honest moderating team.

I reserve the right to go "I told you so" when you notice your posts disappearing and you have no idea why because they were on-topic and didn't break any rules.


In the case of the process of arbitration taking place here it seems that you don't quite have a grasp of the process by which this system operates. The situation has been explained to you quite clearly, on more than one occasion, which can be witnessed by more than a few of those that might subject themselves to your contributions to this thread.

I daresay those that are having trouble understanding why someone who seems as potentially adroit as yourself might instead persist in bashing their head against a brick wall consider that dishonest - not the response you're consistently getting.

I find CCP/ISD's candid, clear and patient attempts to address your issue not only far from "arbitrary", but quite refreshing that they can do it in a fashion you find unacceptable.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#268 - 2012-11-12 12:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Marbuel wrote:
In the case of the process of arbitration taking place here it seems that you don't quite have a grasp of the process by which this system operates. The situation has been explained to you quite clearly, on more than one occasion, which can be witnessed by more than a few of those that might subject themselves to your contributions to this thread.

I daresay those that are having trouble understanding why someone who seems as potentially adroit as yourself might instead persist in bashing their head against a brick wall consider that dishonest - not the response you're consistently getting.

I find CCP/ISD's candid, clear and patient attempts to address your issue not only far from "arbitrary", but quite refreshing that they can do it in a fashion you find unacceptable.

You seem to be confusing me with LCO. I only stepped into this particular subtopic because words like "harassment" were being thrown around with little regard as to their actual meaning. What I saw was someone trying to resolve an issue, albeit with a frustrated tone, in a civil manner and a nonspecific context, treated as though their concerns are irrelevant.

I've had perfectly legitimate posts of mine deleted in the past without any explanation or warning, and I face three rather unfortunate alternatives - utilize CCP's wonderful and critically acclaimed petition system for each and every post for what's rather likely to become a long wait on a very unsatisfying answer, shut and do nothing and hope it never happens again, or try to address the issue in a nonspecific manner in a thread such as this and face replies such as "that can't have happened because our system is set up this way" which you can't make any reply to because mentioning specific details is against the rules. How convenient for them!

Because I feel it absolutely necessary to make my point, I'll go ahead and state that one such post of mine that was deleted without any explanation or any word whatsoever was merely an answer to another poster's question here about whether bans on the forum translate to in-game bans. No discussion of anything specific, just that general question on its own.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#269 - 2012-11-12 12:06:16 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:

You mean the attitude of carefully explaining what the rules and procedures are and then cutting you off when you go 'waaah they shouldnt apply to me because I'm such a special snowflake'

Grow the hell up.

"I don't accept that" the discussion qualifies as harassment.
Fair?

So no, the attitude of "we don't care that you take exception to our arbitrarily defining your civic participation in a discussion as harassment".

Even bungee cords don't stretch that far.


When your participation consists of the internet equivilant of going 'nu-uh' over and over again I think I can forgive CCP for no longer giving a damn about your opinion. If you really want to pick that particular hill to plant your cross on then dont let me stop you, however I will reserve the right to go'I told you so' when you get banned.

More arbitrary definitions. What are you getting out of this thread? It certainly seems like you're completely disinterested in an honest moderating team.

I reserve the right to go "I told you so" when you notice your posts disappearing and you have no idea why because they were on-topic and didn't break any rules.


Since you asked what I'm getting, I'm getting a very entertaining discussion with someone who appears to have disappeared up his own arse a very long time ago.

Secondly I'm not that concerned about the moderation for two reasons
1. Unlike you I actually accept that adopting a stricter moderation policy and giving mods more leeway in how they intepret the rules actually does lead to the occasional extra post disappearing. This is not a declaration of war on forum posters or some secret ebil conspiracy to prevent certain people from posting, its a normal function of changing the way the mods look at things.

2. I'm also satisfied that should a post of mine do said disappearing act that there is a procedure in place for me to seek an explanation, assuming one wasnt provided when the post was removed. The fact that you dont accept it as valid is utterly irrelevant to the fact that it is there and theres even an easy way to say you are not happy with the explanation provided.
Since we're in the field of asking questions, what more do you want them to do?

You have what I would define as unrealistic views of the moderators, seeming to believe them dishonest and applying the rules in an unbalanced manner, whereas I see them working hard to clean up a forum that has been by and large a **** infested, troll ridden cesspit for several years. Yes they arent perfect, no-one is, but they have oversight and reliable ways for users to reach that oversight.

To be honest the only things I see less of since they changed the mod policies and introduced the ISD mods are spamming, mindless trolling and pointless shitposting, none of which I miss in the slightest.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#270 - 2012-11-12 12:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
You're right, it's completely unrealistic to expect that moderators explain why they delete rule-abiding posts when they have absolutely no problem explaining why they delete posts that don't abide by the rules. It's also completely unrealistic of me to expect that a company should know better than to send all inquiries of moderator actions into an already taxed system.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Marbuel
Australian Belt Strippers
Warped Intentions
#271 - 2012-11-12 12:21:41 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

You seem to be confusing me with LCO.


As are you.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I've had perfectly legitimate posts of mine deleted in the past without any explanation or warning, and I face three rather unfortunate alternatives - utilize CCP's wonderful and critically acclaimed petition system for each and every post for what's rather likely to become a long wait on a very unsatisfying answer, shut and do nothing and hope it never happens again, or try to address the issue in a nonspecific manner in a thread such as this and face replies such as "that can't have happened because our system is set up this way" which you can't make any reply to because mentioning specific details is against the rules. How convenient for them!

Because I feel it absolutely necessary to make my point, I'll go ahead and state that one such post of mine that was deleted without any explanation or any word whatsoever was merely an answer to another poster's question here about whether bans on the forum translate to in-game bans. No discussion of anything specific, just that general question on its own.


As I'm not privy to the content of the threads you've had deleted, I must admit I can't debate the propriety of any of the moderation that took place. At the end of the day, discussing a decision made under the rubric that governs a moderator's choices would be rather pointless. There's a clear set of rules, crying foul can only get you so far - a call has been made. I'd rather protect the moderator's ability to make it than fight for the right of posts to exist, however banal. You undermine the authority that has been given, and the system erodes in this case rather than evolves. Hence the call for constructive feedback rather than posts that verge on "harassment".

I wish you luck in getting over whatever offense you've taken to a post being deleted. But, since we're making absolutely necessary points, the tone and nature of your posts are not convincing me that whatever you've had removed in the past has been completely innocuous.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#272 - 2012-11-12 12:26:13 UTC
Apparently commenting that the game having a larger subscriber base would give me more people to steal from is now considered trolling.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

CCP Falcon
#273 - 2012-11-12 13:22:15 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Apparently commenting that the game having a larger subscriber base would give me more people to steal from is now considered trolling.


Personally, as a pirate, I think it's awesome :3

On a more serious note, wording can have a lot of impact on how your post is viewed and what context it's taken in.

I didn't deal with the post in question, but there's a big difference in posting when it comes to distinguishing between a short, sarcastic one liner and giving a good, reasoned explanation as to why it's awesome having more people around to blow up and steal stuff from. Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#274 - 2012-11-12 17:19:53 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Apparently commenting that the game having a larger subscriber base would give me more people to steal from is now considered trolling.


Personally, as a pirate, I think it's awesome :3

On a more serious note, wording can have a lot of impact on how your post is viewed and what context it's taken in.

I didn't deal with the post in question, but there's a big difference in posting when it comes to distinguishing between a short, sarcastic one liner and giving a good, reasoned explanation as to why it's awesome having more people around to blow up and steal stuff from. Smile


It was in response to someone complaining that EVE would be pointless if there were 200-400k people online. My exact words were, "Actually this would be pretty awesome. I'd have more people to steal from".

Post was removed for trolling (If you think that's trolling, perhaps it's time for you to quit the internet).

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#275 - 2012-11-12 20:29:22 UTC
For all the supposed effort you put into cleaning the forums, the forums aren't any cleaner to me. They aren't any more "civil", except in the cases where people attack CCP/ISD and that has been shut down (as it should really.)

But I don't really notice a difference. Take that as you will, and I hound the forums a decent amount.

My point is, it just seems you're creating more upsets than you are fixing any problems.

Arrow

Where I am.

ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#276 - 2012-11-13 01:10:29 UTC
To Mallak:

I'm echoing CCP Falcon here, I too don't know the specific post you're referring to but there is one possibility that springs to mind.

When we are forced to delete a post, the forum software automatically links all posts that have quoted the one to be deleted, as it makes no sense to keep replies that are in direct response to something that was removed.

It could be that in this case, your post was removed automatically because of that; the CCL agent involved would still have posted a message to the effect that the thread was cleaned of trolling, but that doesn't necessarily mean that *your* post was trolling; it might have been a valid retort (as it sounds in this case) to a post that wasn't acceptable.

If you're not sure that this might have been the case, you can either petition the community team to ask them about it, or you can report the original thread. If you put the text 'FAO CCL Leads' at the start of the report, then ISD Eshtir, myself or CCP will investigate.

To Bloodpetal:

I'm sorry you feel that way!

From our perspective, the forums are significantly cleaner; but I will concede that our measure of this is likely different from yours Smile
This is EVE, it's understood and accepted that part of the meta gaming aspect is that Forum PvP is just as legitimate as anything that happens in game. The forums are never going to be cuddly, but they can at least be civil.

So from our perspective, direct contraventions of forum rules have gone down, the amount of threads we've needed to lock has gone down massively and levels of communication and contribution have gone up. In the last month, you will see that many of our team our posting more and acting less.

We are almost presciently aware of the amount of 'upsets' that we have been accused of creating, that's true - but we're trying to get into a culture of being 100% transparent this thread and our change in how we lock threads is an example of that.
We're also aware that we're (CCP and CCL) inducing a culture shift in the forums and when it comes down to it, nobody likes their cheese being moved.
Last of all however, I don't like to defer to vulgar metaphors to talk about this great community, but in this case it's appropriate to say that 'The squeaky wheel gets the oil'.

We welcome any suggestions however; if you've got some thoughts from the player perspective on how we can be more transparent, we're very open to hearing them in this thread.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#277 - 2012-11-13 01:27:54 UTC
It might be a worthwhile idea to expand upon the message that's posted in a thread in some manner when they are cleaned of troll/personal attacks, to indicate to people that if they had quoted a troll/flame/personal attack etc. that their post was also deleted although it may not have been breaking the rules or w/e.

From the forum users standpoint it would be a little more clear as to what's going on since it's rather confusing when this scenario happens.

From the moderators point of view it might reduce the amount of people coming in here asking hte same question: "Why was my post deleted for breaking X, I don't think I broke any rules!?!?"

I'm probably nitpicking a bit here, maybe this will be a usefull suggestion though.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#278 - 2012-11-13 01:46:17 UTC
Nope, that's very good feedback silk, we actually did have a brief discussion about this today as we were wondering on the reasons why some people were concerned that their own posts had gone missing unexpectedly.

I think that moving forwards, we will try to be very clear in our thread response when this has happened.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#279 - 2012-11-13 01:58:57 UTC
Posters need to know that their posts are at risk if they quote someone elses . Might be a good sig for ISD personel. Big smile

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#280 - 2012-11-13 03:25:56 UTC
Hi Salpun;

In a way you're right and I do agree with the intent of your suggestion.

We feel (in CCL) that it should be clear from the forum rules and the Website terms of service that " your post is subject to anything that CCP games and her representatives consider viable".

In a sense; anyones post is at risk, as CCP could mandate us to purge the forums right now; and they can do so if they wanted to.
Ok that's an extreme example, but to break down your suggestion; having that info in the signature is a dangerous thing:

1) it's by far not the most common forum infraction.
2) Stating it verbatim detracts from our ability to use our discretion.
3) If we count that particular interpretation of the rules as Gospel, then we open ourselves up for enforcing one particular interpretation and another one*.
4) There's not enough room in the Signature! My name and role are on the same line so I could fit the recruitment link.

*that comes from hard experience; if we define one action then people will argue about the edge cases - this is why CCL volunteers are hand picked after a strong vetting processing to try and ensure that they know the forums and its mood swings.
It's the same reasoning for the fact that all GM posts about definitive actions state that your petition will be handled on a case by case basis.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]