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Nerf Moaning Null Bears PLS
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#561 - 2012-11-12 00:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
"I believe EVE should function more like real life because _______________"

Can you fill in the blank? I'm really trying to figure out where these really bad ideas you keep spouting come from and hopefully your response will shed some light.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Corps should always pay the members, a larger entity (let's call it "state") should be the one providing defense for a fee. This is usually achieved by alliance but you see the distorsion at corp level, where "workers" have to pay instead of getting paid.
Sure they may get ship refunds (not all corps) but it's still distant from a real corporation concept.

Edit: I see I have jumped a lot of middle text to pass from your topic to my reply but you are smart and can understand why I wrote this.


Player empires, despite being comprised of units called "corporations" (the thing that every other MMO calls a 'clan' or a 'guild' or what have you) are the "state" in nullsec. Therefore, your argument is pretty much wrong.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#562 - 2012-11-12 00:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
corestwo wrote:
"I believe EVE should function more like real life because _______________"

Can you fill in the blank? I'm really trying to figure out where these really bad ideas you keep spouting come from and hopefully your response will shed some light.


Because:

1) EvE strives to give a quasi-realistic feeling and those mechanics would just make it more "real" (there are custom fees in RL, actually in RL you could be forbidden to even bring more than a certain amount of money with you).

2) Because real life met all those challenges and solved them in some way. Those solutions may be eventually backported into EvE.


corestwo wrote:

Player empires, despite being comprised of units called "corporations" (the thing that every other MMO calls a 'clan' or a 'guild' or what have you) are the "state" in nullsec. Therefore, your argument is pretty much wrong.


The difference is subtle but imo there is. Corps are not called guilds, are not called "colonies" nor "communities" nor "terraformers". They are really called corps, come with tickers and shares and can issue dividends.

For some reason at a certain point CCP halted a rich corporation implementation (see how unfinished / just lacking is the shares management) and gave us an half solution.

I don't see why they couldn't revamp corporations, it's just another of the many unfinished parts of EvE.

If CCP have to rethink the whole role (manufacturer vs materials exporter) and rules and defining features of nullsec vs hi sec, they may as well do a proper and finished job.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#563 - 2012-11-12 00:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
So basically your answer is, "I think it would be super-neat if eve were a super-realistic economic simulator to satisfy my own whims and desires".

Glad you're not in charge of game design.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#564 - 2012-11-12 00:42:42 UTC
corestwo wrote:
So basically your answer is, "I think it would be super-neat if eve were a super-realistic economic simulator to satisfy my own whims and desires".

Glad you're not in charge of game design.


Well, my opinion is as good or as bad or as subjective as yours, therefore I feel like expressing it.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2012-11-12 00:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
1) EvE strives to give a quasi-realistic feeling and those mechanics would just make it more "real" (there are custom fees in RL, actually in RL you could be forbidden to even bring more than a certain amount of money with you).

Funny, last I checked what EVE strove towards was being a cutthroat spacegame where people shot eachother in the virtual face with virtual ammo in virtual space using virtual (and unrealistic) physics in virtual ships bought by virtual isk spawned into virtual existence by virtually shooting other virtual ships which never learn that that virtual damsel in distress isn't a virtual target which it would be clever to go after for the 23784294928734912874th time.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
2) Because real life met all those challenges and solved them in some way. Those solutions may be eventually backported into EvE.

Give us a list of game mechanics changes you foresee would turn EVE into a place where corps hire employees to pay them a wage.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#566 - 2012-11-12 00:44:16 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
corestwo wrote:
So basically your answer is, "I think it would be super-neat if eve were a super-realistic economic simulator to satisfy my own whims and desires".

Glad you're not in charge of game design.


Well, my opinion is as good or as bad or as subjective as yours, therefore I feel like expressing it.


Your opinion certainly is one of those three things.


e: You never actually addressed the fact that the player organizations in nullsec are the state, by the way. Care to comment?

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#567 - 2012-11-12 01:28:31 UTC
To sum it up:

Eve is not the game to play only on sunday coz you can not earn enough isk then in HS to buy ships/skill(books)/modules to fly and loose ships in LS/Null on that same sunday, soloing.... if I understand OP correct.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#568 - 2012-11-12 01:30:35 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
1) EvE strives to give a quasi-realistic feeling and those mechanics would just make it more "real" (there are custom fees in RL, actually in RL you could be forbidden to even bring more than a certain amount of money with you).

Actually, let's have a gander at this for a second. Let's assume for a second that corps are businesses which are out to make a profit.

1) In which universe would anyone take as many million m3 as a player might feel a desire to throw at them, refine it and take absolutely nothing for the job? Let's not call it "refinery tax", but let's call it "payment for doing the job of refining something for you", if that makes it sound better for you.
2) In which universe would anyone spend 3 hours and 15 minutes to make a 200+m isk ship for anyone else to get paid 2k (which, given 40m/hour running l4s equates to 0.2 seconds' worth of salary) for the job?
3) You call it "a broker fee", I call it "a broker fee and a sales tax, or market transaction tax since it's a tax being put on a market transaction". It works rather like VAT does, and it's something CCP should be using more actively to curb the monetary inflation which is running rampant.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ghazu
#569 - 2012-11-12 04:10:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghazu
Stop all this meandering crap about RL corps. Stop you desperate grasping by making up your conditions for your horrible ideas. Highsec gets a nerf this time. A simple +% of taxes or fees a simple -% in efficiency will do for the duration of 18 or how many months of re-design, -end of story.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#570 - 2012-11-12 07:51:06 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Actually, let's have a gander at this for a second. Let's assume for a second that corps are businesses which are out to make a profit.

1) In which universe would anyone take as many million m3 as a player might feel a desire to throw at them, refine it and take absolutely nothing for the job? Let's not call it "refinery tax", but let's call it "payment for doing the job of refining something for you", if that makes it sound better for you.
2) In which universe would anyone spend 3 hours and 15 minutes to make a 200+m isk ship for anyone else to get paid 2k (which, given 40m/hour running l4s equates to 0.2 seconds' worth of salary) for the job?
3) You call it "a broker fee", I call it "a broker fee and a sales tax, or market transaction tax since it's a tax being put on a market transaction". It works rather like VAT does, and it's something CCP should be using more actively to curb the monetary inflation which is running rampant.


1) Nowhere and I always wondered why one person can get free stuff just for being liked by a corp.

In fact if you had read what I wrote some posts ago, I wrote that services would actually cost more in high demand locations (i.e. close to Jita the prices would be much higher).

So thank you for agreeing with me.

2) ISK by EvE lore has an huge value, in some place it was even posted how much a "non immortal caspuleer guy" earned a year and it was a very very small ISK sum. Ships in NPC stations are made by non caspuleers.

But then, the same stuff above applies: if you build close to Jita price should be higher than building in the middle of Amarr nowhere.

3) VAT does not apply to stock / commodity exchanges. VAT is a tax usually applied selling to retail by a witholding agent and often with different rates depending on how needed for living such goods are.

What applies to exchanges is:
- exchange fee (not applied in EvE).
- broker fee (each broker applies its one).
- data feed fee (not all exchanges charge for it).
- orders book fee (not all exchanges charge for it).

Then there are other possible indirect fees like the load and deferred load fees => but they pertain to funds and are managed by them.

Now, if you read any of my posts about trading I am the last player in EvE that would remotely suffer from increased market fees.
So if you are trying to scare anybody with market fees, I will gladly take them as they will just eradicate high frequency station traders (my competitors).

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#571 - 2012-11-12 07:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Ghazu wrote:
Stop all this meandering crap about RL corps. Stop you desperate grasping by making up your conditions for your horrible ideas. Highsec gets a nerf this time. A simple +% of taxes or fees a simple -% in efficiency will do for the duration of 18 or how many months of re-design, -end of story.


Stop crying like a sheep, if fixing nullsec (where I have assets and ships and a trading hub BTW) was so easy as nerfing hi sec, the dozen of nerfs hi sec got in the recent years would have fixed it already.

A redesign is in order and since most people do like you - that is provide no constructive feedback at all, let talk those who do and counter their arguments with your own alternate models.

What actually suprises me is that Lord Zim is actually forming counter arguments that could make a CCP employee read my and his posts and get hints, while people I believe very knowledgeable like corestwo and Arith are not.

They should have their ideas and they would not be just about the pretend-next-nerf but about something more.
A something they apparently don't feel like to share beyond some vague statements.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Ghazu
#572 - 2012-11-12 08:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghazu
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Ghazu wrote:
Stop all this meandering crap about RL corps. Stop you desperate grasping by making up your conditions for your horrible ideas. Highsec gets a nerf this time. A simple +% of taxes or fees a simple -% in efficiency will do for the duration of 18 or how many months of re-design, -end of story.


Stop crying like a sheep, if fixing nullsec (where I have assets and ships and a trading hub BTW) was so easy as nerfing hi sec, the dozen of nerfs hi sec got in the recent years would have fixed it already.

A redesign is in order and since most people do like you - that is provide no constructive feedback at all, let talk those who do and counter their arguments with your own alternate models.

What actually suprises me is that Lord Zim is actually forming counter arguments that could make a CCP employee read my and his posts and get hints, while people I believe very knowledgeable like corestwo and Arith are not.

They should have their ideas and they would not be just about the pretend-next-nerf but about something more.
A something they apparently don't feel like to share beyond some vague statements.

Nope I am merely calling out your BS, for the longest time you could not come up with anything more than "nerf hisec peepz will unsub" and "buff Null/Low highsec will suffer, and peepz will unsub".
Words are wasted with the likes you (tell me again about how eve can go f2p again) except for lube up for the nerf bat a coming.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#573 - 2012-11-12 08:32:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
1) Nowhere and I always wondered why one person can get free stuff just for being liked by a corp.

In fact if you had read what I wrote some posts ago, I wrote that services would actually cost more in high demand locations (i.e. close to Jita the prices would be much higher).

So thank you for agreeing with me.

So there's no reason why NPC stations shouldn't take a cut of the refined proceeds, then. Good you agree that this should be increased.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
2) ISK by EvE lore has an huge value, in some place it was even posted how much a "non immortal caspuleer guy" earned a year and it was a very very small ISK sum. Ships in NPC stations are made by non caspuleers.

But then, the same stuff above applies: if you build close to Jita price should be higher than building in the middle of Amarr nowhere.

Show me where it says the capsuleers make almost between 60000 and 120000 times more pr hour.

Edit: Actually, it gets even worse than this, since I presume there'd more than just 1 guy welding, wiring, adding systems and doing QA in 3 hours and 15 minutes per battleship.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
3) VAT does not apply to stock / commodity exchanges. VAT is a tax usually applied selling to retail by a witholding agent and often with different rates depending on how needed for living such goods are.

So, perfect for the market, then. Which is a good thing, because that's exactly how EVE's "VAT" is being used, except it's not differentiating between any materials, and sov stations can't set their own.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#574 - 2012-11-12 08:39:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
What actually suprises me is that Lord Zim is actually forming counter arguments that could make a CCP employee read my and his posts and get hints, while people I believe very knowledgeable like corestwo and Arith are not.

Why, because I'm a goon, and thus not knowledgeable?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ghazu
#575 - 2012-11-12 08:42:31 UTC
heh so compelling, grasping from RL to lore to big terms you heard on NPR, so you really like dragons or something?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#576 - 2012-11-12 10:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Ghazu wrote:

Nope I am merely calling out your BS, for the longest time you could not come up with anything more than "nerf hisec peepz will unsub" and "buff Null/Low highsec will suffer, and peepz will unsub".
Words are wasted with the likes you (tell me again about how eve can go f2p again) except for lube up for the nerf bat a coming.


I suggest you to stay out of debates where you don't seem to get the premises and long term design.

1) I repeated again and again how null needs a REMAKE (not a buff). It is certainly a vastly more in depth operation than some trivial coefficients tweaking you believe it'd suffice.

2) I am the last player in EvE that would suffer from an hi sec nerf: I only trade and my trades are placed once every 2-3 weeks to 2-3 months.

Imagine how much I care if they set refining tax to 20000% or they nerf missions to yield 1M per month.

Actually, my intended taxes on inter-empire transport and general plan to make Jita less of the only hi sec system worth operating are harsher nerfs that most would ever dare to ask.


I try keeping the overall picture not just the contingent immediate instance. The situation is being managed in a stupidly similar way to how they are managing Europe's economy: they keep failing achieving any result yet they try again the same identical measures, just harder and just making the populations poorer.

What do you achieve once you nerf hi sec once again? That nobody will still care to go in a place where you CANNOT produce (lack of production lines), you CANNOT slap down your personal POS (alliances are usually contrary to that), you have no convenient and stocked market hub and so on and on. And refining sucks (only thing they could fix with a quick coefficients change, but then Rorquals would be affected so it's not so totally linear like it seems).

A nerf is the juvenile way to tackle 7-8 years standing nullsec issues.

Until the game will have people like you who demand nerfs instead of real changes, the game will not improve. The only thing you achieve is some partisan-ism, some flames and no real null sec change.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#577 - 2012-11-12 10:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lord Zim wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
What actually suprises me is that Lord Zim is actually forming counter arguments that could make a CCP employee read my and his posts and get hints, while people I believe very knowledgeable like corestwo and Arith are not.

Why, because I'm a goon, and thus not knowledgeable?


So why corestwo and Arith are goons yet I defined them "very knowledgeable"? Please check your logic.

My statement is farily linear: your CFOs know more than you, not because you are a goon or anything but because they embrace an hugely vaster data base, alliance history including the secret details you don't know and they have proven again and again to be well above the playerbase standards.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#578 - 2012-11-12 11:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lord Zim wrote:

So there's no reason why NPC stations shouldn't take a cut of the refined proceeds, then. Good you agree that this should be increased.


I suggest re-re-rereading my past posts and you'd see I am harsher than you, just on a game design level instead of a "buff / nerf" level.
IE refining close to trade hubs would cost MUCH more than you ask and this because of the demand vs offer based hypotheses I talked about.

It's totally possible that our point of view are closer than you believe, they are just on separate layers. You go for a direct way (that has proven to be ineffective after years of trying) while I am trying a game design route.



Lord Zim wrote:

Show me where it says the capsuleers make almost between 60000 and 120000 times more pr hour.


It's in those old "lore" chronicle posts that CCP made years ago, iirc the "regular man" pay would be 20,000 ISK a *year*. I am sure much more lore versed people than me know more exact figures.

Edit:
Here's an indirect reference.
And here is another.

Lord Zim wrote:

Edit: Actually, it gets even worse than this, since I presume there'd more than just 1 guy welding, wiring, adding systems and doing QA in 3 hours and 15 minutes per battleship.


Considering we produce nano-bots and similar, I don't think they work like a Ford totally human production chain of the last century.


Lord Zim wrote:

So, perfect for the market, then. Which is a good thing, because that's exactly how EVE's "VAT" is being used, except it's not differentiating between any materials, and sov stations can't set their own.


Well, VAT is a trader neutral tax (as I said some posts ago, costs will be horizontally flipped on end users, so we traders don't care).
The game design, suprisingly is not really in theme with a VAT, we don't have a proper retailers chain.

Yours is actually a consideration that could be worth a mini-game, where players (and not markets) sell goods in player owned shops, those would be the best candidate for a VAT.

This would involve removing finished goods from the regular exchanges. After all exchanges trade currencies and commodities not finished computers, bikes and battleships.

Since this would be a massive change that CCP would probably never implement, a middle solution would be to only impose and automatic VAT on exchange listed finished goods and not on the commodities (raw minerals etc.).

The VAT would be corporation decided in null sec. This could work.

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#579 - 2012-11-12 11:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
What do you achieve once you nerf hi sec once again? That nobody will still care to go in a place where you CANNOT produce (lack of production lines)

Bullshit, we're suggesting that should be the very first step, or did you conveniently forget that?

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
you CANNOT slap down your personal POS (alliances are usually contrary to that)

Complete and utter bullshit, or you should find an alliance which doesn't suck all the dicks on the way to the parking lot.

The main restriction against putting up your own personal POS is corp roles, and that's normally solved through alt corps. We do tons of this.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
you have no convenient and stocked market hub

Complete and utter bullshit, or you should find an alliance which doesn't suck all the dicks on the way to the parking lot.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
And refining sucks

The only reason refining sucks is because you have to refine in a different system to where you manufacture (unless you manufacture in a POS).

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
A nerf is the juvenile way to tackle 7-8 years standing nullsec issues.

Until the game will have people like you who demand nerfs instead of real changes, the game will not improve. The only thing you achieve is some partisan-ism, some flames and no real null sec change.

Re nerf being juvenile: "a nerf is a nerf any way you slice it", which means the only way to go is to go up up up. So, 1m HP BSes dishing out 100k dps, 10m HP dreads dishing out 1m dps, 100m titans dishing out 10m dps (all pre-tankmods) because if you go down it's a juvenile change?

Re: nerfs instead of real change: So tweaking various existing game mechanics to work in a different way, and opening up the possibility for alliances to actually do a bottom up financing depending on player activity (and as such should provide incentives for alliances to make it worthwhile to live there through upgrades, stations etc), which in turn provides more content to PVPers who would actually be able to go roaming and have a reasonable expectation to actually either find someone to gank or to find a defense fleet to have a scrap with (because it would actually be worthwhile to defend your space from roaming gangs, unlike today's situation) isn't "improving the game"?

Compare that with your idea of secularizing nullsec, lowsec, hisec (and even here you want to secularize amarr from gallente from minmatar from caldari etc), and you have the audacity to say that you're advocating "real changes" which will "improve the game"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#580 - 2012-11-12 11:14:37 UTC


Bloody hell, is this thread still going on?

What's everyone moaning about still?

Goons are running CCP?

Null Sec wants to crush everyone in High Sec?

It's unfair that in High Sec it takes me 2 months to save for a faction/deadspace fit tengu but people in null make 3mil a minute (actually saw a thread claim this)?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli