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Making missions more challenging and reducing the isk faucet

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2012-11-11 17:51:55 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
That doesn't actually answer my question, which was what is the breakdown from mission rats vs complex rats?
You mean apart from saying that (just over) half the global bounty payout is likely to come from missions, based on the what we know about the mission reward payouts and how they correlate with mission bounty payouts?
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#22 - 2012-11-11 20:07:17 UTC
Move lvl 4s to lowsec.
Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-11-11 20:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoe Issier
Link the large N-studys you say you have that shows most the isk come from missions or is it just a random number you pulled out your @ss

all the carriers running noms in 0.0 av nothing to do with it am i right?
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-11-11 21:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sisohiv
The trouble is, the AI in this game is very skeletal.

They don't adhere to capacitor, they don't adhere to scan res, they don't adhere to tracking or ships ranges.

Remember when they dicked around with Guristas ECM? It was I-Win. You fight a macro when you fight the PvE so the script says they warp out at 80% Hull? They will, every time. Fit a scrambler you say? Ever watch a rat close in on you from 150 km out? Takes them 15 seconds. So you scram him get him to 80% hull, he MWD I-Wins to 30km and warps away, every time.

They would need to remodel the AI from the ground up and in the end it would still be seen as an ISK grind, just much slower.

The game is already a grindwhore. It doesn't need to be made in to more of one.

-

It will not happen but I would like to see them add Corelli tags, remove all bounties and give bounties from tags.
All mission rats named corelli or corpelli drop corelli or corpelli bounty tags. Belt rats drop standard Serpentis, Sansha etc. Each has a value. The reason I know this won't get done is because most tags are not a productive part of the EVE game and most are in the game from 9 years ago. The millions of tags in the game would mean hyper inflation if only in the short term but it would have devastating effects.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2012-11-11 21:15:50 UTC
Zoe Issier wrote:
Link the large N-studys you say you have that shows most the isk come from missions or is it just a random number you pulled out your @ss
Search for Kefira's “mission income” threads.

Quote:
all the carriers running noms in 0.0 av nothing to do with it am i right?
There's too few of them.
Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-11-11 21:29:17 UTC
Why should i search you made the claim so back up your claim with a up to date study of the numbers

no proff gtfo
stoicfaux
#27 - 2012-11-11 21:35:04 UTC
Mission AI is being overhauled. http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73413

Making NPCs act more like player ships has been discussed before. I can't find the dev comments, but IIRC, it's a nice goal but it's non-trivial to do due to having to replace/remake all the missions, balance them, balance the rewards, redo all the NPCs, etc..

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#28 - 2012-11-11 21:35:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Ok, sure.
Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game.
Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items. Big smile

And keep LP prices for items as is.
As it is now its cheaper to buy a hookbill off market then get BPC with LP+isk+minerals+build charge from NPC slots+taxes.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#29 - 2012-11-11 21:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Amateratsu wrote:

TLDR. Reduce # NPC's, make them much toughter, remove / reduce bountys, increase LP Reward / Items to compensate
Heat shields activated, flame away


Your TLDR will get no argument from me.

It's been a long time since I've run any but courier missions (standings grind), but as I recall they were about as exciting as mining is for me. Which is to say, not very.

They need to have variety, have a challenge and have a reason to exist. I'd like to see some easily soloed and some that require teamwork. I would like to see, as well, the need for a PVP fit to be successfully completed. Right now running missions is good training for running missions. They should be good training for PVP.

As it stands, the transition from PVE to PVP is a cliff that is nearly unscalable. What it should be is a hill that can be climbed if you apply yourself. The only reason to keep things as they are is to please the whiny, risk averse griefers that cannot lose against missioners due to the overpowering advantage of the PVP fit against the PVE fit.

Missions need to be changed from ISK generators to training grounds with an ISK incentive for performing well.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-11-11 21:43:04 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Ok, sure.
Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game.
Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items. Big smile
And keep LP prices for items as is.


Nobody uses tags in the LP store.
Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#31 - 2012-11-11 21:45:59 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Ok, sure.
Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game.
Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items. Big smile
And keep LP prices for items as is.


Nobody uses tags in the LP store.
Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets.

Oh contrar mi capiton, yes you do.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-11-11 21:50:29 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Ok, sure.
Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game.
Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items. Big smile
And keep LP prices for items as is.


Nobody uses tags in the LP store.
Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets.

Oh contrar mi capiton, yes you do.


Yes, you are correct. That 1 in 200,000 guys who puts 800 mill in Navy guns on his ship makes the difference. They are the corner stone of the EVE economy. They are the back bone of trillions.

Cal navy 425's.
34 available in Jita.
To fit a Rokh would run you just under a billion. Roll
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#33 - 2012-11-11 22:02:56 UTC
Zoe Issier wrote:
Why should i search you made the claim so back up your claim with a up to date study of the numbers

no proff gtfo


Wow, really is it that difficult for you? You have been told exactly how to find the simple answers and incapable of summoning either the attention span or mental agility to do so you just pretend there is no proff?

x-ISK earn't from mission rewards per month
y-ISK earn't from NPC bounties per month

k = ratio between NPC bounties and mission rewards (easily calculable as there are only a small pool of missions)

x * k / y = % of bounty ISK made from high sec missions.

Its so simple I'm amazed I even bothered to write it out for you, the numbers are all out there.
Arec Bardwin
#34 - 2012-11-11 22:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Arec Bardwin
Sisohiv wrote:

Nobody uses tags in the LP store.
Check the market for faction EANMs, neuts, smart bombs, webs and scrams/disruptors. All of these are popular pvp items.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-11-11 22:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sisohiv wrote:
Nobody uses tags in the LP store.
Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets.
Quite the opposite. Items you can't do that with are the ones that eat up all the tags, and they give you nice returns for the effort, compared the ones where you can just throw more ISK at the item. Sure, there might be more of the latter since they're easier to generate (and they provide horrid ISK/LP ratios as a consequence), but categorically stating that tag-requiring items aren't on the market (often in numbers) is categorically false.

Not that it matters anyway — they generally still sink their fair amount of ISK in addition to the tags (and create a second round of taxes and fees from those tag sales) so there would be no need to fiddle with them regardless.
Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-11-11 22:15:17 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Zoe Issier wrote:
Why should i search you made the claim so back up your claim with a up to date study of the numbers

no proff gtfo


Wow, really is it that difficult for you? You have been told exactly how to find the simple answers and incapable of summoning either the attention span or mental agility to do so you just pretend there is no proff?

x-ISK earn't from mission rewards per month
y-ISK earn't from NPC bounties per month

k = ratio between NPC bounties and mission rewards (easily calculable as there are only a small pool of missions)

x * k / y = % of bounty ISK made from high sec missions.

Its so simple I'm amazed I even bothered to write it out for you, the numbers are all out there.



All x' and y's but no link?

Why should i wast my time searching becouse some random pulled numbers out they @ss make a claim back it up

on side not i couldnt care either way about mission seemedca intresting debate but lacks proff of numbers from claims
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#37 - 2012-11-11 22:20:26 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Ok, sure.
Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game.
Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items. Big smile
And keep LP prices for items as is.


Nobody uses tags in the LP store.
Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets.

Oh contrar mi capiton, yes you do.


Yes, you are correct. That 1 in 200,000 guys who puts 800 mill in Navy guns on his ship makes the difference. They are the corner stone of the EVE economy. They are the back bone of trillions.

Cal navy 425's.
34 available in Jita.
To fit a Rokh would run you just under a billion. Roll
Fed Navy magstabs.
Caldari Navy Invuls.
Imperial Navy EANMs.
Republic Fleet warp disruptors.
... and many more. Roll

Who put the goat in there?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#38 - 2012-11-11 22:27:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Zoe Issier wrote:
Why should i wast my time searching
Because you asked for it. Just because you can't be arsed to look up the reference doesn't mean the numbers don't exist.

Oh, and they're not random, and they are pulled from the game. If that happens to displease you, you can always go and perform your own study. As it is, 150bn ISK/day (rewards + bonuses) × 3–4 → 450–600bn ISK/day in bounties compared to the 900bn total.
Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-11-11 22:39:34 UTC
No i asked you to back up your claim with up to date official study

but again you just type random numbers with no link to back up your claim

proff or gtfo tbh
Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#40 - 2012-11-11 22:42:42 UTC
Caldari Navy Small Graviton Smartbomb

Tags required-

168 Fed Navy sergeant insignia I
210 Fed Navy Sergeant insignia II
253 Fed Navy Sergeant insignia III

Cost of tags 18 Million at Jita sell price

LP / ISK Cost

33,750 LP + 13.5 Million Isk

Total Isk Cost to buy from LP store 31.5 m isk + 33k LP

Jita Sell Price.... 9 Million ISK

Even without the tags you're still looking at a loss.

LP stores need a serious rebalance