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CCP No longer adding sandbox?

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Author
Souisa
Subhypersonics
#21 - 2012-11-11 11:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
baltec1 wrote:
Souisa wrote:


Some things have been "broken" for a long time before CCP addresses it, so just because things have been a certain way for a certain amount of time does not mean its perfect



Only if said ship is broken.

Freighters are working just fine.


Not if you look at all the other ships which have fitting options. Even the old school haulers have high slots and turret points. If the freighter should stay true to the EVE sandbox thing, it ought to have fitting options. Players should be able to decide wether they want tank, speed or some combination. There would probably be an outrage if the mining frigate had no fitting options and came prepacked with mining lasers.

o/

Souisa
Subhypersonics
#22 - 2012-11-11 11:09:09 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Complains about no sandbox.
Lives in highsec.


? :)

o/

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#23 - 2012-11-11 11:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Wow, troll-a-thon in high gear today. Think I might have saw one halfway intelligent counter argument buried in all the pixelated defecation. So I'm going to break ranks and actually discuss the OP instead of just being another cyberturd in the punchbowl.

Mining frigates are useful in the same context as mining cruisers. It gives a stepping ladder for miners to start with, before moving to cruisers and finally into barges. It seems like a good idea but you are correct in pointing out that this generally goes against the idea of "tieracide" - which oddly enough still applied to actual barges (now each has a dedicated role) but not to mining frigates or cruisers. So I can see why someone would find that to be a step backward, because unless the mining frigates and cruisers had some specific niche to occupy other than their size, that indeed does sound like going back to tier-based thinking. Maybe CCP should liven it up a bit and expand upon their roles more? After all, the barges got rebuilt to be more than linear tiers - they have specific jobs. What's so special about one mining frigate/cruiser over another?

As for freighters, many people (myself included) have complained about the lack of fittings as well. It is generally well known that with industrial transports, pilots must chose between more cargo or more protection, and this fits well with EvE's general philosophy of risk vs reward. Freighters do not have that option, and options are what keeps EvE vibrant. When freighters run into problems (gankers, bumping, whatever) they have no options on how to deal with it. They can't decide to trade cargo for tank or vice versa. Yet they get blamed when "foolish behavior" gets them killed? How does one blame someone else for something they have no say in? So yes, freighters need fittings, just like everything else. It's overdue. Some may say that freighters are working fine. Really? Have you asked the freighter captains that, or are we just asking the people who prey on them? I'll go with what the freighter captains have to say first, thank you.

It would amaze me that people would ever vote against having more options in EvE, but then I realize that there are people who are simply reflexively conditioned to troll any idea that isn't their own without any conscious though required. One does not expect poetry from an insect.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2012-11-11 11:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Souisa wrote:


Not if you look at all the other ships bar the shuttle, which have fitting options. Even the old school haulers have high slots and turret points wtf? If the freighter should stay true to the EVE sandbox nature, it ought to have fitting options. Players should be able to decide wether they want tank, speed or a some combination. There would probably be an outrage if the mining frigate had no fitting options and came prepacked with mining lasers.


I do not want my freighetr to be nerfed in both EHP and Cargo space because you (and only you and a minority of others) think it should get fitting slots to fill the role it already fills. If you want something more tanky use the deep space transports. If you want something fast use a blocade runner. If you want something not quite as big as the freighter but bigger than the subcap haulers use the orca.

Well just look at that, we do have options. How sandboxy.

Said mining frigate is filling several roles and thus, needs fitting options.

Katran Luftschreck wrote:
How does one blame someone else for something they have no say in?


Who was the fool who put 20 billion into the hold?
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#25 - 2012-11-11 11:41:32 UTC
Maybe instead of putting sand in the box they should leave it empty? In fact, why Even have a box?

Perhaps instead of space CCP could make a giant "nothing zone" and we can figure out its space or whatev's.

OP is on to something. :pokerface:

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

C DeLeon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-11-11 11:55:17 UTC
The new mining frigate buffs booster production by making it easier, decreases its price and gives us more use of it in combat situations. There is the remotely buffed sandbox what you are looking for.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-11-11 11:56:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Freighters are fine and have been since they were added back in 2005.


I'd say this reply deserves an apt bump?
Souisa
Subhypersonics
#28 - 2012-11-11 12:04:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Souisa wrote:


Not if you look at all the other ships bar the shuttle, which have fitting options. Even the old school haulers have high slots and turret points wtf? If the freighter should stay true to the EVE sandbox nature, it ought to have fitting options. Players should be able to decide wether they want tank, speed or a some combination. There would probably be an outrage if the mining frigate had no fitting options and came prepacked with mining lasers.


I do not want my freighetr to be nerfed in both EHP and Cargo space because you (and only you and a minority of others) think it should get fitting slots to fill the role it already fills. If you want something more tanky use the deep space transports. If you want something fast use a blocade runner. If you want something not quite as big as the freighter but bigger than the subcap haulers use the orca.

Well just look at that, we do have options. How sandboxy.

Said mining frigate is filling several roles and thus, needs fitting options.

Katran Luftschreck wrote:
How does one blame someone else for something they have no say in?


Who was the fool who put 20 billion into the hold?


No one is gonna remove your 200k EHP freighter, you will just have to put some reinforced bulkheds on it to get that

o/

Souisa
Subhypersonics
#29 - 2012-11-11 12:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Wow, troll-a-thon in high gear today. Think I might have saw one halfway intelligent counter argument buried in all the pixelated defecation. So I'm going to break ranks and actually discuss the OP instead of just being another cyberturd in the punchbowl.

Mining frigates are useful in the same context as mining cruisers. It gives a stepping ladder for miners to start with, before moving to cruisers and finally into barges. It seems like a good idea but you are correct in pointing out that this generally goes against the idea of "tieracide" - which oddly enough still applied to actual barges (now each has a dedicated role) but not to mining frigates or cruisers. So I can see why someone would find that to be a step backward, because unless the mining frigates and cruisers had some specific niche to occupy other than their size, that indeed does sound like going back to tier-based thinking. Maybe CCP should liven it up a bit and expand upon their roles more? After all, the barges got rebuilt to be more than linear tiers - they have specific jobs. What's so special about one mining frigate/cruiser over another?

As for freighters, many people (myself included) have complained about the lack of fittings as well. It is generally well known that with industrial transports, pilots must chose between more cargo or more protection, and this fits well with EvE's general philosophy of risk vs reward. Freighters do not have that option, and options are what keeps EvE vibrant. When freighters run into problems (gankers, bumping, whatever) they have no options on how to deal with it. They can't decide to trade cargo for tank or vice versa. Yet they get blamed when "foolish behavior" gets them killed? How does one blame someone else for something they have no say in? So yes, freighters need fittings, just like everything else. It's overdue. Some may say that freighters are working fine. Really? Have you asked the freighter captains that, or are we just asking the people who prey on them? I'll go with what the freighter captains have to say first, thank you.

It would amaze me that people would ever vote against having more options in EvE, but then I realize that there are people who are simply reflexively conditioned to troll any idea that isn't their own without any conscious though required. One does not expect poetry from an insect.


Stepping stone or not depends on the skill requirements. It seems that CCP do intend to require mining frigate 4 before you can hop into mining barges. So its a stepping stone. However i noticed they added +2 warp core strength on the mining frigate which i disagree with. Arent you suppose to fit this yourself?

o/

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2012-11-11 12:40:08 UTC
Souisa wrote:


No one is gonna remove your 200k EHP freighter, you will just have to put some reinforced bulkheds on it to get that


AKA a nerf to my cargo.
Souisa
Subhypersonics
#31 - 2012-11-11 12:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
baltec1 wrote:
Souisa wrote:


No one is gonna remove your 200k EHP freighter, you will just have to put some reinforced bulkheds on it to get that


AKA a nerf to my cargo.


Im not sure i understand

o/

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2012-11-11 12:47:11 UTC
Souisa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Souisa wrote:


No one is gonna remove your 200k EHP freighter, you will just have to put some reinforced bulkheds on it to get that


AKA a nerf to my cargo.


?


Freighters cannot be allowed to have a cargo hold of 1 million m3. This means that any lowslots or rig slots muct be acompanied by a nerf to the cargo to accomadate the use of cargo expanders.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2012-11-11 12:47:12 UTC
Souisa wrote:
Not if you look at all the other ships bar the shuttle, which have fitting options.
Other ships' ability to fit stuff does in no way change the fact that freighters are fine, nor does the lack of fitting options on freighters make them any less sandbox:y.

Quote:
However i noticed they added +2 warp core strength on the mining frigate which i disagree with. Arent you suppose to fit this yourself?
No, you're not. You're supposed to look at the ship, see what it can do, and then either fit it with stuff that makes it suited for the task at hand or decide that it will not fit that task regardless and pick a different ship.

The ships are tools that you choose to use to shape your sandbox experience. They are not the sandbox — your choices are.
Souisa
Subhypersonics
#34 - 2012-11-11 12:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
baltec1 wrote:
Souisa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Souisa wrote:


No one is gonna remove your 200k EHP freighter, you will just have to put some reinforced bulkheds on it to get that


AKA a nerf to my cargo.


?


Freighters cannot be allowed to have a cargo hold of 1 million m3. This means that any lowslots or rig slots muct be acompanied by a nerf to the cargo to accomadate the use of cargo expanders.


Why cant they have this cargo size? And even if the freighters had slightly less stock cargo space in return for fitting slots, what would the problem be. They should be customizeable, like any other ship, or are you saying customization is a bad thing?

o/

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-11-11 12:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Souisa wrote:
Why cant they have this cargo size?
Because then they'd be able to bring capships into highsec.

Quote:
And even if the freighters had slightly less stock cargo space, what would the problem be.
The problem is that you have nerfed them for no good reason. They are already optimised for the task at hand and can only be made worse by adding fitting options.
Souisa
Subhypersonics
#36 - 2012-11-11 12:51:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Souisa wrote:
Why cant they have this cargo size?
Because then they'd be able to bring capships into highsec.


Why cant they enter high sec btw.

o/

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2012-11-11 12:54:01 UTC
Souisa wrote:
Why cant they enter high sec btw.
Because they have no place there unless they, too, got nerfed into uselessness (or unless all of highsec was turned into low or nullsec).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2012-11-11 12:54:05 UTC
Souisa wrote:


Why cant they enter high sec btw.


Because they are far too powerful for highsec.
Feer Truelight
#39 - 2012-11-11 12:55:10 UTC
OMIGAD!

EVE is no sandbox! CCP introduced PI to interact with Planets? How unfair is that?! We're given no chance to figure out how to use command centers correctly!!!11

8/7/2006 3:39:36 PM UTC FreeCCP Promotional Game Time 7 Days Paid

6/1/2012 5:48:57 PM UTC PayPal 1 x 1 Month EVE Subscription + Signup €19.95 Paid

CCP took 6 years to convert me to a (still) paying subscriber :)

Souisa
Subhypersonics
#40 - 2012-11-11 12:55:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Souisa wrote:
Why cant they enter high sec btw.
Because they have no place there unless they, too, got nerfed into uselessness (or unless all of highsec was turned into low or nullsec).


Why have they no place in high-sec?

o/