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ECM ships should be nerfed.
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#21 - 2012-11-02 23:21:58 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:
... but if you are in the right ships, your weapons do not need the cap to run and you still do dps. Scared of being scrammed, use afterburner and so forth....


You answered your own question: it is a matter of having the right ship with the right fit for the right job.

If you are being jammed you may simply need to leave the field of battle if your ship cannot handle it or have a fleet member who is not jammed take out the offending jammer.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#22 - 2012-11-03 02:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Val'Dore
Risien Drogonne wrote:
There's nothing tactical about having to put up with pure 100% chance on whether your ship can ever contribute to the fight or not. "Tactical" implies meaningful choice and adaptation, not showing up in the wrong ship that can't contribute at all.

ECM has already been nerfed. It's fine.


Showing up in the wrong ship that can never contribute... isn't that statement the antithesis of what I proposed? The idea here is to stop one ship from being the correct choice 99.9875% of the time. There is a reason that the Caldari EW ships are several times more common than the that of the other races'. Because ECM is the universally good EW.

Target Painting can barely be considered EW, Nos/Neuting is not even a little bit EW, and Web/Scrams are as common as Multispec ECMs used to be. Tracking Disruption is not universal, though that seems to be changing. Remote Sensor Dampeners have been considered useless since they are no longer an I Win Button. But everyone still rocks the ECM and they will continue to do so until it is not the end game point conversion victory condition.

So the obvious solution is to balance ECM without 'nerfing' ECM. And the only way to do that is to have it be more situation based rather than universal.

An Electronic Warfare Paradigm Shift is the only way to move forward. Universal Jamming is no fun for anyone. I use ECM drones, and I don't care what that makes anyone think of me any more than the fleets rocking 30% Falcons do.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-11-03 04:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Risien Drogonne
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:

There's nothing tactical about having to put up with pure 100% chance on whether your ship can ever contribute to the fight or not. "Tactical" implies meaningful choice and adaptation, not showing up in the wrong ship that can't contribute at all.


There's no such thing as 100% chance to jam; having flown ECM boats with very good skills, I can attest to that fact.

Nobody said there was. You misunderstood the post.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-11-03 04:13:57 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:


Showing up in the wrong ship that can never contribute... isn't that statement the antithesis of what I proposed? The idea here is to stop one ship from being the correct choice 99.9875% of the time. There is a reason that the Caldari EW ships are several times more common than the that of the other races'. Because ECM is the universally good EW.

Target Painting can barely be considered EW, Nos/Neuting is not even a little bit EW, and Web/Scrams are as common as Multispec ECMs used to be. Tracking Disruption is not universal, though that seems to be changing. Remote Sensor Dampeners have been considered useless since they are no longer an I Win Button. But everyone still rocks the ECM and they will continue to do so until it is not the end game point conversion victory condition.

So the obvious solution is to balance ECM without 'nerfing' ECM. And the only way to do that is to have it be more situation based rather than universal.

An Electronic Warfare Paradigm Shift is the only way to move forward. Universal Jamming is no fun for anyone. I use ECM drones, and I don't care what that makes anyone think of me any more than the fleets rocking 30% Falcons do.

Sounds like your "solution" is to break ECM and make it useless like what happened to sensor damps.
zuranus
Gamma Rising Sun
#25 - 2012-11-03 12:49:14 UTC
OK

This is your new winter gift,hope you like...it.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168820&find=unread
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2012-11-03 14:20:40 UTC
Nah. ECM should just be replaced with a different mechanic that makes more sense and that works on the same kind of logic as the other forms of ewar.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#27 - 2012-11-03 15:12:33 UTC
If the thought is that ECM is so strong that it is overcentralizing, doesn't it make more sense to weaken the overall effect of the ECM mechanic, rather than a hard nerf only to the ships without ECM bonus?

For example, a possible alternative ECM doesn't break your target lock, it just shuts off your high slots for the duration of the effect. So the net change is that you no longer have to retarget, and for the duration of the effect you can still be applying your own flavor of e-war. I feel like this would be healthier for the game than the planned change for winter.

But then again, I'm very much a newbie so take what I say with a grain of salt :P
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2012-11-03 16:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Oh, and…
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:
There's no such thing as 100% chance to jam; having flown ECM boats with very good skills, I can attest to that fact.
Sure there is. Having flown ECM boats with any kind of skills, you should know this.

p = Jam Strength / Sensor Strength.
Jam Strength > Sensor Strength → p = 1.

It's a common misconception that ECM is always chance-based, much like it's a common misconception that other ewar never is.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#29 - 2012-11-03 17:05:35 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:


Showing up in the wrong ship that can never contribute... isn't that statement the antithesis of what I proposed? The idea here is to stop one ship from being the correct choice 99.9875% of the time. There is a reason that the Caldari EW ships are several times more common than the that of the other races'. Because ECM is the universally good EW.

Target Painting can barely be considered EW, Nos/Neuting is not even a little bit EW, and Web/Scrams are as common as Multispec ECMs used to be. Tracking Disruption is not universal, though that seems to be changing. Remote Sensor Dampeners have been considered useless since they are no longer an I Win Button. But everyone still rocks the ECM and they will continue to do so until it is not the end game point conversion victory condition.

So the obvious solution is to balance ECM without 'nerfing' ECM. And the only way to do that is to have it be more situation based rather than universal.

An Electronic Warfare Paradigm Shift is the only way to move forward. Universal Jamming is no fun for anyone. I use ECM drones, and I don't care what that makes anyone think of me any more than the fleets rocking 30% Falcons do.

Sounds like your "solution" is to break ECM and make it useless like what happened to sensor damps.


It must be true, because you said so. How do I break ECM with my idea?

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#30 - 2012-11-03 17:17:49 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:
I posted this topic before and it got locked.
The reason why i feel ecm boats should be nerfed is because they are way way overpowered.
A good skilled falcon pilot can perma jam at over 50km. I have been in fights(not with this toon) where a falcon is jamming over 90 to 110km.
If this is a game of pvp, the pvp should be balanced.
Lets take a look at nuets. A person could nuet you out, but if you are in the right ships, your weapons do not need the cap to run and you still do dps. Scared of being scrammed, use afterburner and so forth.
Use Eccm you say, that stuff does not work, and if the falcon pilot has two ecm for your ship, you are still jammed up to 10 seconds or more.
Flew a cyclone with eccm and jackal implants in one fight and still got jammed.
How is this fair
Say I am flying a hurri, which does around 600dps, being jammed for 10 seconds is alot of dps.
Why not make it so that when a falcon perma jamms or jams over x amount of seconds, it will have the chance of self destructing.
Either nerf ecm boats or give more power to eccm, or have a special midslot for eccm.




Sensor-Dampeners with Targeting Range script. Works like a ******* charm. Unless you're solo. But then again, if 'they' have a falcon and you are solo, you're probably dead even without the falcon on field.
Mistress Lilu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-11-03 22:10:40 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Mistress Lilu wrote:
... but if you are in the right ships, your weapons do not need the cap to run and you still do dps. Scared of being scrammed, use afterburner and so forth....


You answered your own question: it is a matter of having the right ship with the right fit for the right job.

If you are being jammed you may simply need to leave the field of battle if your ship cannot handle it or have a fleet member who is not jammed take out the offending jammer.

listen, when you are on a roam, you get perma jammed and scrammed web, i dont think you have the time and the ability to go change ships.
No matter what ship you bring, nothing beats a falcon or a falcon alt, that perma jams you and you sit there while being perma jammed and the others apply dps.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#32 - 2012-11-04 10:55:49 UTC
"ECM ships should be nerfed."

Check out the changes proposed for retribution by our wonderful balance team. ECM is getting a range reduction, as well as the introduction of new skills that can improve specific sensor strengths by up to 25% when the skill is at 5. In conclusion? ECM is getting nerfed for winter xpack.
Songbird
#33 - 2012-11-04 17:34:24 UTC
so I was looking at at10 semi finals - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n4dV2QrytI - widows - very very good jamming ships...vs vargurs - very very weak ecm ships well we all know how this ended.

I think a frigate with 3 remote eccm's can bring vargur's low strength (of 11) to over 80. But yeah - if you think rooks are too powerful - nothing's stopping you from flying 1 :)

Good luck with your eve experience.
Max Khaos
Republic Military School
#34 - 2012-11-05 17:11:54 UTC
How many more times do you want them nerfed ... Falcons are already mouthballed and if show up are insta popped.
_______________________________________________
infra52x
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-11-07 02:02:31 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:
I posted this topic before and it got locked.
The reason why i feel ecm boats should be nerfed is because they are way way overpowered.
A good skilled falcon pilot can perma jam at over 50km. I have been in fights(not with this toon) where a falcon is jamming over 90 to 110km.
If this is a game of pvp, the pvp should be balanced.
Lets take a look at nuets. A person could nuet you out, but if you are in the right ships, your weapons do not need the cap to run and you still do dps. Scared of being scrammed, use afterburner and so forth.
Use Eccm you say, that stuff does not work, and if the falcon pilot has two ecm for your ship, you are still jammed up to 10 seconds or more.
Flew a cyclone with eccm and jackal implants in one fight and still got jammed.
How is this fair
Say I am flying a hurri, which does around 600dps, being jammed for 10 seconds is alot of dps.
Why not make it so that when a falcon perma jamms or jams over x amount of seconds, it will have the chance of self destructing.
Either nerf ecm boats or give more power to eccm, or have a special midslot for eccm.





Your Fooking face should be nerfed........ecm has been nerfed to death already u fooking noob!!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#36 - 2012-11-07 08:33:39 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:

There's nothing tactical about having to put up with pure 100% chance on whether your ship can ever contribute to the fight or not. "Tactical" implies meaningful choice and adaptation, not showing up in the wrong ship that can't contribute at all.


There's no such thing as 100% chance to jam; having flown ECM boats with very good skills, I can attest to that fact.

Nobody said there was. You misunderstood the post.


Yes there is. When your jam strength is higher than their sensor strength and you are within optimal, you have a 100% chance to jam. Frigates are particularly vulnerable to this.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Brego Tralowski
Tralowski Independent Traders.
#37 - 2012-11-07 17:35:33 UTC
ECM of Falcons etc is their tank/defense, if they don't jam you they're dead.

Nothing more to say me thinks........... well maybe to say fit your ships according if you know you're facing an ECM boat.


Yep, that's it.

Supplying Quality goods to the masses.

See 'T1 Module supplies' for all your T1 needs or T1.com in game chat.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-11-07 17:49:02 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:

Why not make it so that when a falcon perma jamms or jams over x amount of seconds, it will have the chance of self destructing.



Absolutely, as soon as they add the timer to warp disruption, sensor dampening, target painting, etc.

"Why are your falcons exploding?"
"We're using them for their intended purpose."
"Oh....carry on."

How butt hurt are you that you need the ship to EXPLODE for being used to do its primary job?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Sunglasses At Midnight
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-11-11 05:00:34 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:

Why not make it so that when a falcon perma jamms or jams over x amount of seconds, it will have the chance of self destructing.
.


Something makes me think that you've lost expensive ships recently because of Falcons...

Instead of taking a step back and a deep breath, you've made this public thread where you complain about an important and non- broken facet of the game and offer ridiculous "fixes" to a problem that really isn't as big as you're acting like it is. Self destruct chance? There would be no point to Ewar ships then. Who would want to spend time and money flying a ship that was quite likely to explode the moment they turned their offensive modules on? I'm sorry, but that was just a ridiculous suggestion.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#40 - 2012-11-11 06:00:30 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

But they do dislike the binary nature of ECM, or so I hear. And they do have plans to change up EWar in general... but nobody really knows how they intend to do it.


just got this idea:
ECM stay chance based like its now, but what if ECM would just make you lose the lock and then put a delay on the timer you get to retarget another ship based on the difference between your ship strenght and opponent ecm power ?

this would lead when jamming a small ship the difference between ship strenght and ecm power is high so they ship stay jammed for the full 10 secs but when jamming a big ship or something with eccm the jamming time become significantly lower to the point it just break the lock (balanced by the fact big ships take more time to lock)
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