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Suggesting on super capitals
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Balor Haliquin
White Wolf Dragoons
#1 - 2011-10-20 06:07:29 UTC
I have been watching and examining the changes to super capitals and I'm afraid that a lot of it is missing the point. Super Capitals became a massive issue in eve because they were an easy way to take care of a lot of problems really quickly. And the rule of null sec went from the best tactics and strategies to whomever had the biggest super capital fleet instantly won.

Implants and Capitals:
Currently some faction implants work with capitals and some don't. Instead of confusing pilots either make it an all or nothing proposition. If Slaves and Crystals will not work with capitals now, then none of them should. As it stands all capitals have a much higher resistance to anything that those implants would be benefiting, putting those respective stats well outside the reach of any normal fleet's capability. This will reduce both pilot confusion and the danger of the ships in question. I'm not talking about implants through slot 6 to slot 10 mind you.

Titans:
Currently titans start with 4.5 million EHP without any modules on the ship. After the ship is fit with dead space modules we are looking at a 30 million EHP ship. They can dooms day any ship in the game with a 10 minuet rest timer. Their guns/missiles have a 100% bonus to damage. That meas that they can easily put out 3000 DPS. Most of the titans require a lot of extra modules to make them capable of hitting battleships. That means at least 2-3 Tracking Computers for the turret titans and at least 3 Target Painters for the Leviathan.
Titans with bonuses can look at EHP numbers in the mid 60 million EHP area. So a titan is effectively a large tower. Simply put a 20% HP reduction, which translates into a 20% reduction in EHP would make them far easier for smaller fleets to kill. But by no means are the the push overs they used to be before the super capital buff. That puts the titan at 24 million EHP with just a deadspace fit and no fleet bonuses.
As per what seems to be the balance norm of in eve where a ship class can easily deal with its own class, can deal with a class above and below it, and has a hard time with anything outside that; the titan should be good against titans and super carriers, okay with dreadnoughts and carriers, and has a hard time with sub capitals. Much of the issue with smaller classes is not just size but shier numbers. A battleship can easily deal with one frigate, but not 20. In the same light the titan should have issues with larger numbers in smaller fleet sizes.
Right now if a titan fleet is formed with over 25 titans in it it can effectively disable any logistics that are on field with in 15 seconds after lock. With logistics taking 20 seconds to lock and 15 seconds to instantly kill, the enemy fleet is doomed at 30 seconds. I have personally been able to dodge the new doomsday with a dreadnought. But it is not easy and you have to be aligned and ready to go. Basically it should be hard for the larger ships to get away for a doomsday then a smaller ship.
Completely preventing titans from doomsdaying sub capitals makes the titan needlessly vulnerable to an enemy fleet. With preventing a titan from vanishing after 15 minuets, a small fleet of battleships and a tackle should could effectively tackle and kill a titan and the titan could not do anything about it. The sub capital fleet needs to have a critical mass in order to kill the titan. As such I suggest that a doomsdays delay time on the signature radius of the ship its shooting at. So the smaller the signature the greater the gun delay.
For example, anything with a signature radius over 2500m (capital ships) gets the 15 second warm up timer. So using that as the base we would simply take the base resolution and devide it by the targets signature radius and then multiply that by the base timer for the new warm up timer. So a battleship with a signature radius of 500m should have a warm up timer of 75 seconds. But if that battleship starts up its MWD that timer drops to 15 seconds. So MWDing in front of a titan is a massive risk. As an example a logistics has a 441 second warm up timer. You are allowed to hit the sub capitals but its really not worth it unless they are MWDing.
The in game excuse can be that the dooms day needs to focus on the target and once the posses is started it can not be stopped. This means that if you want to shoot you better get it right the first time.
Balor Haliquin
White Wolf Dragoons
#2 - 2011-10-20 06:07:47 UTC
Super Carriers
Super carriers have single handedly been the major issue on tranquility. They are too good against everything. They can do all the things a carrier can do and do them better in many cases. There has to be a split between the carrier and super carrier for jobs. If the carrier is the logistics arm of the combat capitals then the super carrier should be its combat brother.
Currently a super carrier is a 4.25 million EHP ship. When it is equipped with a dead space tank that number can jump as high as 32.75 million EHP on their own. With fleet bonuses means the super carrier has the same if not better EHP then the titans in the fleet. Simply put with the cost of the hull and the cost to get a ship equipped, it simply does not make scene to have a 15 billion isk hull have the same hit points as a 50 billion isk ship. It should be a fraction of that. And considering that with fighter bombers you can do 8000 to 10000 DPS without any Drone Control Units. Either the super carrier has to have great EHP or great DPS, not both. And because its the combat version of the carrier it should lose a lot of it utility. A 20% reduction is simply not enough. For the cost of the ships hull it needs to drop to 1.75 million EHP with no modules. That means that with a dead space fit you have a 13-17 million EHP ship. Even with a logistics sweet this makes this ship far easier to kill if it caught.
The second issue is its utility. Super carriers are combat ships not logistics ships. As such they should never have a ship maintenance array larger then a carriers. Second issue comes down to both carriers and super carriers. Both ships can put out waves and waves of drones and fighters. Considering fighters and fighter bombers are manned and drones are not, then the bonus drone control should only effect fighters and fighter bombers. This limits the number of waves of the heavy damage drones with the lighter and sub capital drones. More lighter small waves of drones verses one large wave of fighters.
Last issue is the logistics capability of super carriers. As they sit they can easily remote repair each other out of danger. Removing the range bonus to their remote repair and energy transfers. Second is a 50% reduction to the effectiveness of both. Yes you can use you super carrier as a remote repair platform but thats not what its made for. And a group of super carriers will have a significantly harder time dealing and defending themselves against a sup capital group.
But along with the reduction in EHP, damage output, and logistics; there is another change. Because the super carrier is so vastly smaller then a titan then it does not deserve a signature radius the same size as one. Because they are about twice the size of a carrier they should have a signature radius of around 5000m. This will allow for some damage reduction from some capital weapons systems including from bombers while moving.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-20 06:35:49 UTC
Quote:
a small fleet of battleships and a tackle should could effectively tackle and kill a titan and the titan could not do anything about it.


this is already the case

No sig.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#4 - 2011-10-20 09:21:41 UTC
I like wher you're heading kind of, I think you have the supecarrier bit wrong... You do realise it's called a SuperCARRIER, if they wanted it's focus to be DPS then they'd have called it a "Mini-Titan" it's meant to be the carriers but better, that's why it's called a supercarrier.
Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-10-20 17:26:38 UTC
Balor Haliquin wrote:
Their guns/missiles have a 100% bonus to damage. That meas that they can easily put out 3000 DPS.



uhm.. a titan with only 3k DPS is doing something terribly wrong. even an erebus with railguns does more than 3k DPS... a fitted ragnarok can do over 10k DPS with just AC's and a few gyro's. so i don't know where the number 3k DPS comes from? :S
Balor Haliquin
White Wolf Dragoons
#6 - 2011-10-20 19:52:38 UTC
The issue with the support fleet being able to wipe out a titan is that there needs to be a critical mass in order to kill the titan. With the no despawn after log off being put in place its very possible to see a titan kill with 2 ships on in. One being an interdictor or heavy interdictor and the other being a DPS ship. If the titan is by itself and no support is forthcoming then the titan is screwed. I see this becoming a very exploitable situation by forces that are less then honest about how they go about getting kills.

I am looking at super carrier as if they are reflective to the carriers in real life. Carriers and Escort carriers are rather short range and have fighters, but their primary role is fleet logistics, much like the carriers in eve. Carriers in eve are versatile because they can do so many things well. And they are the masters of tower and station repairing. But when it comes to fighting other capitals they tend to fall short. Instead the heavy combat situations are taken care of by super carriers. In real life these are ships that spend a lot of time our at sea and are the main hammer of the fleet. But they have next to so support capability, they are often the primary consumer or resources of the fleet. Same should be true of the super carrier in eve, they are meant for combat not for repairing.

Also consider that the Nyx is a 10000 DPS ship when a full wing of fighter bombers is deployed. That is exactly 2500 more DPS then an Avatar with Dual Giga Beam Lasers and Doomsday running full time. An Aeon is an 8000 DPS machine. These are numbers without any drone control units. With drone control units you can easily boost the DPS up to 12500 DPS on a Nyx.

On the DPS of the guns i am looking at them without the Doomsday. Doomsday adds about 3000 DPS on its own. With close range guns with high damage ammunition you can get gun damage with a real tank on a Titan up to around 6000 DPS for most of them. But then most of the damage on smaller targets goes away because of penalties such as falloff range, tracking, and signature. In all my experience, the gun damage on titans averages out to just over 3500 DPS with any gun at any range with any ammo. Some times its better some times it worse.
Aspherical
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-10-20 20:25:34 UTC
Make Suggestions to Supercaps if you can afford to fly or even to loose em.

If you can barely buy a few battleships for CTA´s and loose em to fleet carrieing 50 times more the ISK on field,
dont be surprised you loose.
Missile War
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-10-20 22:52:52 UTC
Balor Haliquin wrote:
The issue with the support fleet being able to wipe out a titan is that there needs to be a critical mass in order to kill the titan. With the no despawn after log off being put in place its very possible to see a titan kill with 2 ships on in. One being an interdictor or heavy interdictor and the other being a DPS ship. If the titan is by itself and no support is forthcoming then the titan is screwed. I see this becoming a very exploitable situation by forces that are less then honest about how they go about getting kills.

I am looking at super carrier as if they are reflective to the carriers in real life. Carriers and Escort carriers are rather short range and have fighters, but their primary role is fleet logistics, much like the carriers in eve. Carriers in eve are versatile because they can do so many things well. And they are the masters of tower and station repairing. But when it comes to fighting other capitals they tend to fall short. Instead the heavy combat situations are taken care of by super carriers. In real life these are ships that spend a lot of time our at sea and are the main hammer of the fleet. But they have next to so support capability, they are often the primary consumer or resources of the fleet. Same should be true of the super carrier in eve, they are meant for combat not for repairing.

Also consider that the Nyx is a 10000 DPS ship when a full wing of fighter bombers is deployed. That is exactly 2500 more DPS then an Avatar with Dual Giga Beam Lasers and Doomsday running full time. An Aeon is an 8000 DPS machine. These are numbers without any drone control units. With drone control units you can easily boost the DPS up to 12500 DPS on a Nyx.

On the DPS of the guns i am looking at them without the Doomsday. Doomsday adds about 3000 DPS on its own. With close range guns with high damage ammunition you can get gun damage with a real tank on a Titan up to around 6000 DPS for most of them. But then most of the damage on smaller targets goes away because of penalties such as falloff range, tracking, and signature. In all my experience, the gun damage on titans averages out to just over 3500 DPS with any gun at any range with any ammo. Some times its better some times it worse.




your forgetting a few things.
supercarriers can not use bombers on anything smaller than a capital.
bomber damage is reduced alot when targets start to move.
bombers need to move and do that very slowly
bombers can get targetted and killed and thus kill the DPS of a supercarrier
supercarriers have to choose between how many bombers/fighters/other drones they take, thus it may not have enough bombers fitted to fill the maximum of controllable drones out in space.
titans usually got damage mods fitted, increasing their damage making it higher than supercarrier DPS.
doomdays can insta-kill a carrier/dreadnought usually, which a supercarrier is unable to.

probaly some arguments more.. cba to think of any more
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-10-20 23:17:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Headerman
With the recent changes to the drone bay, SCs will have to carry fighters or bombers. Not both.

Also, this is not the last word on SC reballancing

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-10-21 01:30:09 UTC
Balor Haliquin wrote:
The issue with the support fleet being able to wipe out a titan is that there needs to be a critical mass in order to kill the titan.
No. If you're dumb, you die. If you're not dumb and you die, it's a fleet fight and mostly anything goes in a fleet fight. If you die and you're neither dumb nor involved in a fleet fight, you're dumb

Balor Haliquin wrote:
I am looking at super carrier as if they are reflective to the carriers in real life
:cripes:

Balor Haliquin wrote:
Also consider that the Nyx is a 10000 DPS ship when a full wing of fighter bombers is deployed. That is exactly 2500 more DPS then an Avatar with Dual Giga Beam Lasers and Doomsday running full time. An Aeon is an 8000 DPS machine. These are numbers without any drone control units. With drone control units you can easily boost the DPS up to 12500 DPS on a Nyx.

On the DPS of the guns i am looking at them without the Doomsday. Doomsday adds about 3000 DPS on its own. With close range guns with high damage ammunition you can get gun damage with a real tank on a Titan up to around 6000 DPS for most of them. But then most of the damage on smaller targets goes away because of penalties such as falloff range, tracking, and signature. In all my experience, the gun damage on titans averages out to just over 3500 DPS with any gun at any range with any ammo. Some times its better some times it worse.


Your fits and tactics are bad. Learn about supercaps then come back and make proper suggestions.

No sig.
ShadowFire15
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-10-22 05:33:20 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Balor Haliquin wrote:
The issue with the support fleet being able to wipe out a titan is that there needs to be a critical mass in order to kill the titan.
No. If you're dumb, you die. If you're not dumb and you die, it's a fleet fight and mostly anything goes in a fleet fight. If you die and you're neither dumb nor involved in a fleet fight, you're dumb

Balor Haliquin wrote:
I am looking at super carrier as if they are reflective to the carriers in real life
:cripes:

Balor Haliquin wrote:
Also consider that the Nyx is a 10000 DPS ship when a full wing of fighter bombers is deployed. That is exactly 2500 more DPS then an Avatar with Dual Giga Beam Lasers and Doomsday running full time. An Aeon is an 8000 DPS machine. These are numbers without any drone control units. With drone control units you can easily boost the DPS up to 12500 DPS on a Nyx.

On the DPS of the guns i am looking at them without the Doomsday. Doomsday adds about 3000 DPS on its own. With close range guns with high damage ammunition you can get gun damage with a real tank on a Titan up to around 6000 DPS for most of them. But then most of the damage on smaller targets goes away because of penalties such as falloff range, tracking, and signature. In all my experience, the gun damage on titans averages out to just over 3500 DPS with any gun at any range with any ammo. Some times its better some times it worse.


Your fits and tactics are bad. Learn about supercaps then come back and make proper suggestions.


^ this.

[i]Stan Smith had a snow storm over weekend guy was shoveling snow outside, so i shot him and mined the snow myself. concord never showed up. on an unrelated note, i have a court date next tuesday[/i]
ihcrA
ti53
#12 - 2011-10-26 09:37:29 UTC
ShadowFire15 wrote:
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Balor Haliquin wrote:
The issue with the support fleet being able to wipe out a titan is that there needs to be a critical mass in order to kill the titan.
No. If you're dumb, you die. If you're not dumb and you die, it's a fleet fight and mostly anything goes in a fleet fight. If you die and you're neither dumb nor involved in a fleet fight, you're dumb

Balor Haliquin wrote:
I am looking at super carrier as if they are reflective to the carriers in real life
:cripes:

Balor Haliquin wrote:
Also consider that the Nyx is a 10000 DPS ship when a full wing of fighter bombers is deployed. That is exactly 2500 more DPS then an Avatar with Dual Giga Beam Lasers and Doomsday running full time. An Aeon is an 8000 DPS machine. These are numbers without any drone control units. With drone control units you can easily boost the DPS up to 12500 DPS on a Nyx.

On the DPS of the guns i am looking at them without the Doomsday. Doomsday adds about 3000 DPS on its own. With close range guns with high damage ammunition you can get gun damage with a real tank on a Titan up to around 6000 DPS for most of them. But then most of the damage on smaller targets goes away because of penalties such as falloff range, tracking, and signature. In all my experience, the gun damage on titans averages out to just over 3500 DPS with any gun at any range with any ammo. Some times its better some times it worse.


Your fits and tactics are bad. Learn about supercaps then come back and make proper suggestions.


^ this.


Those ^