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[Proposal ] The Removal of Ice from High Security Systems

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Miraqu
Kneipenterroristen.
#61 - 2011-10-17 15:06:03 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

What will really happen is this. Ice fuel prices will spike. As a result, everything produced from pos's in high sec and wormholes will spike. Smaller corps will find that it's no longer affordable to maintain a pos in high sec and wormhole space and will fold. Some corps may take a shot at ice mining in low. However, after a few ganks, they'll give up and go back to high and mine rocks. Prices will continue to escalate.


Within the first three months this would certainly happen, but probably not as black as you paint it.

Longterm, I have to disagree. As soon as the price of ice-products reaches a certain point, it will be really lucrative to mine ice, like mercoxite a few years ago.

Players are adaptive.
They will find ways if they can make a profit at the end. Lowsec players will find that protection racketeering pays more than ganking. Nullsec corps will suddenly consider (ice) mining players. Highsec players will form consortia to mine ice and have protection. Small corps will ninja-mine ice.

If there is ISK to make, players will do it, but ice is so darn cheap that it is senseless to invest even in the skillbook.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#62 - 2011-10-17 17:09:12 UTC
Miraqu wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

What will really happen is this. Ice fuel prices will spike. As a result, everything produced from pos's in high sec and wormholes will spike. Smaller corps will find that it's no longer affordable to maintain a pos in high sec and wormhole space and will fold. Some corps may take a shot at ice mining in low. However, after a few ganks, they'll give up and go back to high and mine rocks. Prices will continue to escalate.


Within the first three months this would certainly happen, but probably not as black as you paint it.

Longterm, I have to disagree. As soon as the price of ice-products reaches a certain point, it will be really lucrative to mine ice, like mercoxite a few years ago.

Players are adaptive.
They will find ways if they can make a profit at the end. Lowsec players will find that protection racketeering pays more than ganking. Nullsec corps will suddenly consider (ice) mining players. Highsec players will form consortia to mine ice and have protection. Small corps will ninja-mine ice.

If there is ISK to make, players will do it, but ice is so darn cheap that it is senseless to invest even in the skillbook.


Oh, it would be worse. Much worse. You're completely leaving human nature out of the equation. Look, you and I both know, without any reasonable doubt whatsoever, that there's a carebear portion of Eve that prefers to move at a slower pace. They make their isk slower, like their risk lower. These, for the most part, are the ice miners. Maybe, just maybe, some of them would try low sec ice if it were gone from high, but not many. Not enough to meet current demand. Of those that do, how many do you think would last more than one or two mack ganks? Not many. They'll be back in high in no time, and will simply go back to nibbling rocks.

Supplies will plummet, and you'll have the survival of high sec and wormhole pos's becoming solely dependant on null sec (and to a lesser degree low sec) ice. This is a recipe for failure. High sec pos's won't be making enough to afford fuel, or the added costs will be too great to justify the time and effort. Wormholes will suffer greatly. As it is, we have to periodically venture into empire to resupply, this happens maybe every few weeks. With a spike in fuel prices, smaller corps will find that buying a couple weeks or a months worth of fuel has eaten all their profits and more... they'll wind up failing. The larger ones, the ones with a full and healthy T3 production chain going... they'll need to recover the fuel cost losses with the only things they have to do so with... T3 ships and subsystems.

It's clear that removing ice from high would have massively detrimental effects that would ripple throughout all areas of Eve. High sec and wormholes suffer greatly. Research takes a blow. Industry takes a blow. T3 products... well, if you want to buy a T3 in the future you better be quite prepared to cough out some serious isk. Probably so much you won't fly it anyhow. Your little pipe-dream about how the high and low sec bunnies will all come together as one and mine low sec ice under the rainbows and nebulae is just that, a pipe-dream that fails to reflect on human nature and reality.

Oh, and one last side effect... people that have had their high and wh livelihoods crushed by such a change... well, you can't take the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in sandboxes they have no interest in. They'll simply look at their empty box and go home.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Miraqu
Kneipenterroristen.
#63 - 2011-10-17 17:25:42 UTC
Predictions as this is reading the tea leaves anyway. Roll

Could happen either way, everyone has stated valid views so far.


Human nature works both ways. Surely some will go back and nibble rocks, for the others this change would bring a little eve back to eve.

So some players and producers quit. Then the T3 ships get more expensive of course. So what? They aren't cheap anyway and were expensive before. They will skyrocket but soon there will be someone who has access to ice or the money and will be able to reach the break even point with a wh-pos.

I still believe that the majority of the players adapt. Well there are some unfortunates, which have their cozy gamestyle broken but thats whats eve.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#64 - 2011-10-17 17:49:14 UTC
Miraqu wrote:
Predictions as this is reading the tea leaves anyway. Roll

Could happen either way, everyone has stated valid views so far.


Human nature works both ways. Surely some will go back and nibble rocks, for the others this change would bring a little eve back to eve.

So some players and producers quit. Then the T3 ships get more expensive of course. So what? They aren't cheap anyway and were expensive before. They will skyrocket but soon there will be someone who has access to ice or the money and will be able to reach the break even point with a wh-pos.

I still believe that the majority of the players adapt. Well there are some unfortunates, which have their cozy gamestyle broken but thats whats eve.


Some of us aren't content with the thought that wormholes would be pushed from a mostly disparate groups of smaller corps and alliances into a place where only a few of the largest survive. It's too much like that lesser empire null.

By the way... those people quitting that you're so "so what" to? They're cash is just as good as even the most hardcore null sec pilot. Probably better... they're less likely to be buying Plex and more likely to be paying directly. If CCP is in agreement that it's OK to crap on so much of their subscriber base in order to benefit a few mega-alliances or null bunnies... well, the whole reaping and sowing expression comes to mind.

Let's hope Hilmar is still listening.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-10-17 18:36:49 UTC
I'll say it again...removing Ice from High Sec is a horrible and stupid idea.

The only reason anybody is asking for this is because they live in Nullsec or Lowsec and want to be able to make more money off of Ice. In all the time I lived in Nullsec I NEVER saw anybody mining Ice. They bought it from Empire and hauled it in. Nullsec and Lowsec already have the ability to mine Ice...there is plenty of it that goes unused every day. No reason at all to remove it from Highsec other than to fill the pockets of large Nullsec blocks.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
L Salander
All Web Investigations
#66 - 2011-10-18 09:04:52 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Removing the ability for cheap 'robotic' labor to take our jobs and push the prices down so far that it's not really worth it for people to do when actually sitting at their computer while playing the game = a good thing!


Is there an anti-like button for this post
Alain Kinsella
#67 - 2011-10-18 09:53:09 UTC
If there's an intent to remove Ice, remove ALL of it (the entire mechanic of getting it through mining) and instead use PI.

-> Produce HW, LO, and Isotopes (one generic version now) from various two-planet combinations.
(Scaling already exists for High-Low-Null/WH, allows WH access to last POS fuel, ganking still possible in all spaces)

-> Stront only made by reacting the above in the same system used by Boosters.
(Boost to Low, sorta, and slight nerf to High towers - compensating for the new wardec rules)

-> re-work the Mackinaw as a Gas Miner
(this type of ship is finally available, boost to Booster/Low and WH folks)

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#68 - 2011-10-18 12:33:22 UTC
Alain Kinsella wrote:
If there's an intent to remove Ice, remove ALL of it (the entire mechanic of getting it through mining) and instead use PI.

-> Produce HW, LO, and Isotopes (one generic version now) from various two-planet combinations.
(Scaling already exists for High-Low-Null/WH, allows WH access to last POS fuel, ganking still possible in all spaces)

-> Stront only made by reacting the above in the same system used by Boosters.
(Boost to Low, sorta, and slight nerf to High towers - compensating for the new wardec rules)

-> re-work the Mackinaw as a Gas Miner
(this type of ship is finally available, boost to Booster/Low and WH folks)



This is good, but there's one major problem I can think of... people often select wormholes based on the PI available... systems with full pos fuel PI being idea. If this were enacted, people may find their systems no longer capable of sustaining their pos. Now... we have to import ice fuels anyhow, but this would instead shift survival to an unpredictable supply instead of a reliable supply. Initially, it would be chaotic and provide undo burdens on a huge number of wormhole dwellers (and everyone else that runs a pos). Now... if the base materials were available across most or all planets, that problem goes away and it also makes planets that may have been less than desirable suddenly worth doing PI on.

This could be made to work, and work well.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#69 - 2011-10-18 13:10:19 UTC
roidspliter wrote:
Nope I never look for Sympathy. In my opnion it is what it is. I just want to bring it to light, I think people should know the corruptness of the CSM


1. The CSM is supposed to help CCP improving the game and they spend their time for it without any payment.
2. GSF is not a "CSM Alliance" thats meant to "look over you" Honestly, are you on drugs ? We play this game like everybody else and we do what we want to because its fun.
3. One of the main features in EVE is that if somebody just tries hard enough, he or she can force you into PvP everywhere, deal with it.
George Holden
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-10-20 00:36:13 UTC
I've talked to my ex-corp mates the second CCP released their "plan" and all I got is "I gonna quit EVE if that happens".
Most of them are highsec dwellers and to be honest their point of view couldn't be narrower.

All that crying about highsec dying and other sludge coming out of many bears brains is just not valid in any way shape or form.

Prices would rise thats almost a certainty. This does not make highsec production/R&D impossible it just makes it more expensive and when in the real world production costs rise so does the products price. It's the same in EVE if your POS fuel price makes 10% of your products cost and this rises by 100% you better make sure to sell your product for 10% more to cover the price increase.

One argument I do get though is the fact that it will "give" nullsec more power over empire a bit like the goons have right now.

It might on the other hand provide an incentive towards on site production in nullsec.

Last but not least nullsec and empire right now have a pretty onesided relationship except maybe for the russians providing compounds.

From what I've seen, correct me if I'm wrong, a large part of the production volume from highsec gets shipped to nullsec/lowsec since thats where stuff gets blown up the most. I myself bought almost everything in Jita and had it shipped which basically means I was at the mercy of the carebears. On the other hand export is pretty small mostly moon goo, faction/deadspace stuff, compounds and Isk.

Oh and by the way I would really love to see highsec moved from Tranquility to SiSi including all its dwellers and see the market implode. Any thoughts? Might be worth a proposal as well.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#71 - 2011-10-20 05:59:37 UTC
roidspliter wrote:
ok so I wake up and this is the eve mail I find when I log on.

Greetings:

You have been identified as one of the unfortunate miners who has suffered the loss of his ship within the last 24 hours of Goonswarm's ongoing effort to stop the environmental destruction of New Eden and ensure that the faulty belief that ice mining is a profitable enteriprise ends. We are sad to see that you were caught up in our effort, but we do hope that you understand this was nothing to do with you in particular, but more to do with your chosen profession. We Goons are environmentalists.

That said, this is a one time offer.

If you will pay 500,000,000 isk you will be protected from further destruction. This one time payment will protect you in only ONE system, so make sure you point out which system you ice mine in when you reply!

Payment is immediately noted in our Goonswarm public boards and all Goons currently participating in the effort to eliminate miners will be notified immediately as well via evemail and notification on our internal Jabber system.

In your payment's comment line, please ensure you note the system you are mining in. Once paid? Mine to your heart's content and enjoy the upwardly mobile price of Oxytopes.

Thanks,

Venus Vermillion,
Goonswarm Recruiter and public representative.

Does anyone else find this mildly disturbing!!!
This is the alliance that is suppose to be looking out for all of us in the CSM. Its this kind of crap that makes me want to cancel all my accounts


HAHAHAHA

you reap what you sow.
Roldanus
Black Anvil Industries
#72 - 2011-10-20 06:43:13 UTC
roidspliter wrote:
ok so I wake up and this is the eve mail I find when I log on.

Greetings:

You have been identified as one of the unfortunate miners who has suffered the loss of his ship within the last 24 hours of Goonswarm's ongoing effort to stop the environmental destruction of New Eden and ensure that the faulty belief that ice mining is a profitable enteriprise ends. We are sad to see that you were caught up in our effort, but we do hope that you understand this was nothing to do with you in particular, but more to do with your chosen profession. We Goons are environmentalists.

That said, this is a one time offer.

If you will pay 500,000,000 isk you will be protected from further destruction. This one time payment will protect you in only ONE system, so make sure you point out which system you ice mine in when you reply!

Payment is immediately noted in our Goonswarm public boards and all Goons currently participating in the effort to eliminate miners will be notified immediately as well via evemail and notification on our internal Jabber system.

In your payment's comment line, please ensure you note the system you are mining in. Once paid? Mine to your heart's content and enjoy the upwardly mobile price of Oxytopes.

Thanks,

Venus Vermillion,
Goonswarm Recruiter and public representative.

Does anyone else find this mildly disturbing!!!
This is the alliance that is suppose to be looking out for all of us in the CSM. Its this kind of crap that makes me want to cancel all my accounts


Another recruit!

Mail me in eve after 21 UTC.
Don't worry its payback time. Something big is coming.
Roldanus
Black Anvil Industries
#73 - 2011-10-20 06:44:23 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
roidspliter wrote:
ok so I wake up and this is the eve mail I find when I log on.

Greetings:

You have been identified as one of the unfortunate miners who has suffered the loss of his ship within the last 24 hours of Goonswarm's ongoing effort to stop the environmental destruction of New Eden and ensure that the faulty belief that ice mining is a profitable enteriprise ends. We are sad to see that you were caught up in our effort, but we do hope that you understand this was nothing to do with you in particular, but more to do with your chosen profession. We Goons are environmentalists.

That said, this is a one time offer.

If you will pay 500,000,000 isk you will be protected from further destruction. This one time payment will protect you in only ONE system, so make sure you point out which system you ice mine in when you reply!

Payment is immediately noted in our Goonswarm public boards and all Goons currently participating in the effort to eliminate miners will be notified immediately as well via evemail and notification on our internal Jabber system.

In your payment's comment line, please ensure you note the system you are mining in. Once paid? Mine to your heart's content and enjoy the upwardly mobile price of Oxytopes.

Thanks,

Venus Vermillion,
Goonswarm Recruiter and public representative.

Does anyone else find this mildly disturbing!!!
This is the alliance that is suppose to be looking out for all of us in the CSM. Its this kind of crap that makes me want to cancel all my accounts


HAHAHAHA

you reap what you sow.


Continue to laugh. Better that way.
Roldanus
Black Anvil Industries
#74 - 2011-10-20 06:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Roldanus
Akara Ito wrote:
roidspliter wrote:
Nope I never look for Sympathy. In my opnion it is what it is. I just want to bring it to light, I think people should know the corruptness of the CSM


1. The CSM is supposed to help CCP improving the game and they spend their time for it without any payment.
2. GSF is not a "CSM Alliance" thats meant to "look over you" Honestly, are you on drugs ? We play this game like everybody else and we do what we want to because its fun.
3. One of the main features in EVE is that if somebody just tries hard enough, he or she can force you into PvP everywhere, deal with it.


1. CSM has proven to be totally ineffective and childish with their approach and they are only helping themselves.
2. CSM are GSF and AAA puppets, and they represent only their point of view, in addition to a bunch of other griefers.
3. Nobody complains about PVP. You can't be serious Akara, pilots after Mackinaws or Hulks are not after PVP you know that better than anyone.

There is a false impression that miners don't like PVP. THIS IS WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT!!!
But a totally different aspect is making noobs life miserable, ur just ruining the game.

Griefers are just coward enough to fire mining barges instead of doing incursions that are much more profitable.
But don't you worry, things will change.
SOON.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#75 - 2011-10-20 21:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruah Piskonit
Roldanus wrote:


1. CSM has proven to be totally ineffective and childish with their approach and they are only helping themselves.
2. CSM are GSF and AAA puppets, and they represent only their point of view, in addition to a bunch of other griefers.
3. Nobody complains about PVP. You can't be serious Akara, pilots after Mackinaws or Hulks are not after PVP you know that better than anyone.

There is a false impression that miners don't like PVP. THIS IS WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT!!!
But a totally different aspect is making noobs life miserable, ur just ruining the game.

Griefers are just coward enough to fire mining barges instead of doing incursions that are much more profitable.
But don't you worry, things will change.
SOON.


Good points, bad reasons.

1) CSM has been effective, just not for you.

2) This is because CSM does not represent the community, it represents the most powerful entities in EvE. Its a plutocracy disguised as populism, not a democracy. When the CSM project was first announced, thee was a call to allot slots for various aspects of the game a more structured system. But CCP is an Icelandic company, and they believe that populism is democracy and that the popular vote represents the greater majority. Of course its broken.

3) Um. . .firstly, pvp is complained about a lot. And its based on risk and reward.

I suppose the real point is

1) Eve is hard.
2) Eve is a pvp game - whether that is market pvp, or ship pvp, or caliming you belt pvp - its all pvp bcaus you are competing against other players.
3) Eve is more kind and soft to the newer players then it ever has been, and the declining numbers of players are not leaving because their mining ships have been blown up (people have been killing miners forever) but because CCP has consistantly given into the notion that Empire is safe space. As I and many others see it, there should not exist any safe space outside of the station - when you hit undock, the famous saying goes, you are consenting to pvp.

Now if people are looking for a relaxing PvE experience, i think they should go find another game. What has so many of the older community upset is that EvE is challenging and rewarding because it is hard - and at this moment - it is far too easy. If you are the kind of person who will quit because you got killed, then move on because it only gets harder. The trick then is to figure out a way to beat them - and that is the challenge. Join a corp, get protection, pay the man off - whatever you do - know that there are a lot of other people out there that are competing for the same stuff.

high level missions in high sec, ice mining in high sec. . .all this stuff should be moved into lowsec, and perhaps review Wt0. Will it be unpopular? yes. Will it lead to a price increase? yes. Will it make the more challanging and therefor more rewadinb? yes.

its really up to CCP at this point - is EvE a game people can come home from work, watch tv and eat crisps while they afk mine and relax, or is it going to be a game that requires thought and attention with dire consequences for those who decide to afk haul or afk mine or take whatever easy shortcut. I'd say that eve should strive to be more engaging, more difficult, and maintain the high dropout ratio due to difficulty.

Griefers are like quality control.
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2011-10-21 03:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Takara Mora
The facts speak for themselves, if people wanted constant pvp, they'd already be living in nullsec ... but they aren't ...

You think if you remove their sand, they'll suddenly want YOURS?

That's quite the big assumption ... are you really willing to risk EVE's future on that?
Deucalion Ex Mortis
Doomheim
#77 - 2011-10-21 08:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Deucalion Ex Mortis
Do it!

If you think we lost subs because of Incarna, implement this idea and you will really see a drop in subs and not just the whinny 0.0 dickheads. But again that is the #1 objective for the CSM, kill eve.

Your doing a great job CSM keep it up, the more crap like this the sooner you will be gone......

Dont forget to put a timer on the posses when they all go off line there are gooing to be 100's of offline posses in empty highsec systems. I hope you retards like to mine becasue thats what you will be doing.

O wait you have bots......
Uronksur Suth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2011-10-21 11:24:36 UTC
No thanks, I like my ice in high sec.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#79 - 2011-10-21 12:50:35 UTC
Alain Kinsella wrote:
If there's an intent to remove Ice, remove ALL of it (the entire mechanic of getting it through mining) and instead use PI.

-> Produce HW, LO, and Isotopes (one generic version now) from various two-planet combinations.
(Scaling already exists for High-Low-Null/WH, allows WH access to last POS fuel, ganking still possible in all spaces)

-> Stront only made by reacting the above in the same system used by Boosters.
(Boost to Low, sorta, and slight nerf to High towers - compensating for the new wardec rules)

-> re-work the Mackinaw as a Gas Miner
(this type of ship is finally available, boost to Booster/Low and WH folks)



This idea is actually quite brilliant.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2011-10-21 13:54:14 UTC
Deucalion Ex Mortis wrote:
Do it!

If you think we lost subs because of Incarna, implement this idea and you will really see a drop in subs and not just the whinny 0.0 dickheads. But again that is the #1 objective for the CSM, kill eve.

Your doing a great job CSM keep it up, the more crap like this the sooner you will be gone......

Dont forget to put a timer on the posses when they all go off line there are gooing to be 100's of offline posses in empty highsec systems. I hope you retards like to mine becasue thats what you will be doing.

O wait you have bots......


What he said.

Seriously...CCP lost a lot of subs from the anomaly changes then more when Incarna released. Do this and you will see it happen again but only because you are directly ******* over your largest player base...the High Sec Bears. Why would you completely screw over a larger group of players just to appease the smaller group? Nullsec doesn't need more Ice. Nullsec doesn't need to be the only place to mine Ice. Mittani already wants to remove ABC ores from WH space so that Nullsec can be the only place to mine that too. See a trend here? Yeah.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821