EVE General Discussion

I have indeed always been baffled at the complete lack of any thought by CCP part on these basic 0.0 things.

They only and exclusively focused on pew pew but without giving a reason to live in there. This is embarassing for a game sporting "all round, full immersion" PvP.

Even huge failures like Warhammer Online managed to make PvP self subsistance possible and even easy in the very PvP areas of super-close by.

Instead of Dominion they should have implemented a "Citizenship" expansion and made 0.0 a place to be, not just to quickly roam, kill 2 guys, log off and log hi sec alt.

Its all part of the system. We the players form an important part of detecting the bots. In our operations we found hundreds of them and not only reported them but also destroyed all of their ships and depleated their isk before they were ultimately banned.

1 that's James 315's gig, he is not Null.
2 freighters are much better investment in time per loss inflicted.
3 also you are asking somebody else to create demand for you, again.

And?


No, they would not.


Very few JFs are ganked compared to how many are flying about to/from nullsec, this is a "marginal" piece of gameplay.


Ah, the age-old "IF YOU DO THIS WE'LL JUST QUIT!" argument.

Also I thought hisec was 70% of the game's population? :confused:


There's no way to do manufacturing in nullsec without it being a complete cockstab. Why do you think I say manufacturing capacity must be increased?

There's no way to implement a mining tax, because people would just compress the ore, haul it to hisec and refine it. Why do you think I say compressed ore must be less efficiently refined?

There's no way to implement a manufacturing tax, because first of all there's no capacity there and second of all you can make a maelstrom for 2k in hisec and ship 6 of them out to VFK for 750k a piece, or you could spend roughly the same amount of money to haul compressed minerals out. Why do you think I say manufacturing costs need to be increased?

There's no way to implement a market transaction tax, period. The mechanic does not exist.

He seems to have plenty of time in his hands and to have a suitable mentality, why not "upgrade".




I am fine with freighters being destroyed too, 50% of my fund is on minerals, only 25%-ish on ices




I am asking people who like to "interact" with other players to interact more.
They seem reasonably the best candidates to match my objectives, so I just ask them to do what they like, just more

oh you.

you know it was. every one did, it was apparent to even the most dense of people from the moment goons started dishing out 25m rewards for every 10 exhumer kills or whatever the going rate was.

also, they made no secret of the fact that sponsoring hulkageddon was purely a tool for market manipulation.

I want them to admit it officially and in the open.

This Thread is still going

I am not impressed by not-emergent-any-more players trying to stir the same soup that they know well it's not going to work, so let me be place some counter-current and constructive suggestions aimed at springing real discussions.

First of all, there is a fundamental distinction to address: PvP players and those who are totally risk averse or just not PvP players.

- The former "would like to" play in their home and live there if only it was less convenient to JC to hi sec or similar.

- The latter are not interested the least about moving out. They are just fine to stay where they are and do their little fun things. Brutally slamming them in the face with nerfs would just make them play less, drop some accounts and so on.
They are inelastic to the requests to force them out of their home.

Now I believe the latter are also a big CCP money maker so pressuring on that key is not going to achieve a lot.

What should be addressed instead are exactly the PvP players. After all it's *them* who are unhappy and what is not working are mechanics made around *them*. It's them who are the "live breathing" players after all and deserve more than some "envy shutting" nerfs done on others. It'd be once again equal to just put PvP players in the ignore corner while only putting attention on the others.


So, what's wrong and what can be done?

Easy.

Too quick and effective military force projection has caused a lot of evil to nullsec. I won't even waste time to explain it for the 100th time since people much 0.0 knowledgeable than me have covered this enough already.

A similar process happened with logistics.

Making stuff in low sec or null will never be convenient as long as the cost of moving finished products is an O(0).
Even if you had zillions of null sec cheap slots you'd just break even.
Plus the always present risk introduces an implicit, abusive cost on everything done in low and nullsec, a cost that can't be realistically imposed in hi sec unless you remove "the sec" from hi sec and make it as risky.

EvE was harder but better before the easy mode logistics were implemented.
Null sec could have been revamped to make it a quasi-independent territory but CCP for unfathomable reasons decided to leave it slave of hi sec and just make logistics a negligible cost. "A quick hack" solution that caused endless ripple effects.


- CCP destroyed wallets segregation with PLEX and we see the negative effects on markets. Whole markets manipulated by individuals making the flaunted realistic EvE economy a much lesser asset.

- CCP destroyed hi sec trade hubs segregation by killing arbitrage (allowing sharing prices for all the regions on 3rd party web sites) and this killed the diverse micro-economy tied to the various individual empires.

- CCP destroyed nullsec segregation by introducing easy logistics projection instead of implementing a rich nullsec services infrastructure.

=> CCP basically implemented streamlining and globalization causing issues we (non Americans - no idea how much they have them) live every day on our skin. Needless to say, these issues realistically suck in EvE as well.


What's needed is to revert streamlining and fix what's broken not hotfix it with some badly conceived band aid like: "nullsec services suck, let's make it easy to leave nullsec, it's going to work GREAT!"


Therefore, null sec should be improved to hi sec levels FIRST (while leaving the higher opportunities untouched) and then:

- JCs made impossible between null sec and hi sec. I said to improve nullsec FIRST because changes like forbidding JCs would otherwise kill nullsec even more.
It should be only possible to JC into major hi sec hubs so no "I JC from 0.0 2 jumps away from hi sec to circumvent the limitation".

- JF jump *finished goods* costs (a NPC tax) risen exponentially enough that it's more profitable to do stuff in the refurbished nullsec than ferrying it across.

- Removal of any super efficient mineral compression. Rorqual and that's it.

This would probably reinstate the "freighters trains of old" and this would be good as they are slow, fragile and would bring in lots of trade route figthing again.

- Jita needs to become less efficient. This would partially happen already with the diminished resupplies but it could be improved by putting hi sec only empire "tolls" on carried goods. CCP was going to refactor customs officers anyway, no?
This would make it costly to ferry stuff across empires and thus increase the local markets convenience.


Now, on the overall outlook this sounds like an awful lot of ISK sinks (made to strategically move things away from the Jita Black Hole). Who says it's a bad thing with the current state of the economy?

Ah well, seeing how much you care for those not in your tribe I suppose it's pointless to even discuss.




It should cost much more to ferry it to VFK not to build it in hi sec. If you had enough production lines created in 0.0 and ferrying a Mael costed 10M then making it in hi sec would suddenly look much less enticing.
It's exactly the topic of my post above.




I do and removing easy mode cheap force and logistics projection would probably make overbloated size alliances crack and we'd have again a moltitude of smaller entities and more diversity.
This would also end the pervasive blue balling.
You will hate it, but since you don't see to care for the other players (as in quote 1) I don't care for you either.




1) Pretty certain that I know a number of old players who never cared to pew pew or did in the past and now are "done" with it.
Plus, relying on keeping elder players forever without catering at a turnover of less motivated players has proven to fail over time. Elder players end up quitting - albeit slowly - and then all you get is a zombie game.

2) PI is thriving only because you put so much tax on it that you make hi sec PI look competitive.
Just the idea of being charged a fee higher than NPC would make me re-think about joining such a corp.

I mean, you have bloodsuckers who attach even into what should be a personal pilot income? No surprise you and others feel poor enough to come on the forums!
And don't come to me with the pathetic excuse that your alliance would crush without overcharging stuff like PI. Alliances thrived before PI even existed. Maybe you grew too mammoth size and now you need to cannibalize your own members to survive?

3) With the former wallets segregation it was fairly irrelevant to keep ISK faucets smaller than sinks. But anyway, when possible nerfs will come, you will also get them. Indirectly but you will, and thus you'll have less benefit than you think.
Also, I have yet to see somebody explaining how nerfing their hi sec alt is going to make their 0.0 main wealthier. CCP WILL just do that, they seem unable to review null sec, so the only thing you'll achieve is to have a poorer alt and thus a poorer 0.0 main and thus more difficulty to even remain in nullsec.

PS.
"Incentivize" is an hypocrisy. Even in RL they "incentivize" stuff by making other stuff just stupid expensive to do. If that's not plain WoW-esque approach into canning people's decisions what else is?




Too bad that it's exactly the olden days that grew the game, and the modern days that made it stale. Maybe searching for the factors that what made the game grow is in order?

b) In other games and even in EvE I had leaders who convinced the members to sacrifice some of their min max for the greater good. Maybe your culture brood has some downsides and you should accept the responsibility and consequences of them?

c) Sure, because you said so.

d) Balls. Don't pretend to tell a 20+ years programmer analyst that these things are impossible. It's actually pretty easy to do.