EVE General Discussion

NPC alt knows how nullsec works.

I'm going to just quote this so you can't edit it later.


Sigh. PLEX isn't an ISK faucet, if anything it's an ISK sink. ISK is removed from the economy by the market fees its sale triggers, so it's a small ISK sink, but it's an ISK sink nonetheless. ISK faucets is a term reserved squarely for things which inject ISK into the economy, and apart from the market fees, all PLEXes do is transfer ISK between characters.

We've established that a vast majority of nullsec people have decided that hisec rewards, given the risk and effort they demand, outweigh the rewards of nullsec, given the risk and effort they demand. CCP have tried to up the rewards in nullsec at least once, and it did work, nullsec did become more populous. Then they nerfed anoms within a few months of their buff, and whole regions became desolate more or less overnight, which means most people went back to doing L4s in hisec. And given that L4s are a large part of the current ISK faucets which is causing the monetary inflation which is rearing its head through 600M PLEXes (up from 400m 1 year ago and 250m 2-3 years ago), this means that L4s are already dangerously high reward-wise given the current levels of ISK sinks which CCP have implemented, and this leads directly on to the problem of what to do about nullsec rewards. As I said, they were buffed a while ago, and they were panic-nerfed because they were even worse for the economy than L4s were.

So L4s are, given today's ISK sinks, setting a dangerously high level for rewards which can be gained through no risk and little effort. Add to that the fact that a fully upgraded nullsec system (of which there aren't that many) can't support the infinite number of people which hisec L4s can, and you have a resource which doesn't offer a significantly heightened reward to warrant tolerating the extra risk, effort and occasional forced downtime due to overpopulation and reshipping due to ganks. Add to that the fact that L4s are already vastly outpacing the ISK sinks, and it should be obvious to you that CCP can't, without adding vast ISK sinks liberally, increase the nullsec rewards to the point where people actually does want to live with the extra effort, risk, downtime and reshipping which is a part of nullsec's nature.

If it had been a matter of just going "hurr buff nullsec", and that would fix nullsec, I would've advocated that. It isn't enough, there are far too much ISK being spewed forth into the economy as it is, and purely upping the rewards in nullsec so people will move their ISK-making alts into nullsec would only exacerbate this problem. CCP must either add more ISK sinks so they can raise the rewards of nullsec without wrecking the economy even further, or L4s must be reduced in profitability to make nullsec's already established reward rate viable. Or they need to do both, whatevs.


This is utterly missing the point. Would I have preferred it if there wasn't a possibility of purchasing ISK? Yes, since it would've made losses matter more, but the fact that CCP has introduced PLEXes is not an argument against balancing the economy so you don't have the monetary inflation you do now, and it is not an argument against balancing hisec better vs nullsec, and it is not an argument against adding ISK sinks and specific economic incentives with which to dissuade certain behaviors between f.ex nullsec and hisec.

Missing the point v3.

Our main export is supercaps, to lowsec

Why do you believe that those who live in nullsec should be punished?

I don't remember ever saying the game economy was fine because you can buy ISK. I'm saying your complaint about HS payouts being too much and too risk free has a big hole in it.

As a member of the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics, you should be able to say whether this a true and accurate statement. All ISK in this game was 'magically' created. Three methods I can thing of are: rat bounties, moving NPC trade goods around before PI took that over and collecting insurance on ships worth less than the insurance payout. Slightly removed are some of the goods ( slaves, dairy products, etc ) that 'magically' appear off the RNG which still have buy orders active. Anything beyond this point is simply shuffling ISK around between players.

Next let's talk about some of the 'evil economy killing' goods. I've watched the arguements over the years about only things the *players* make should be on the market. It ruins 'The Sandbox' otherwise. That was one of the big rallying points during Monoclegate. LP 'magically' appears in much the same fashion as bounties. RP kinda falls into this catagory too ( pre nerf ). You could take those 'points' and convert them to an in-game item of some value. While I didn't pay much attention, I do remember some wailing and knashing of teeth over how this was 'ruining' the Eve economy. We weren't 'making' anything and were getting those goods for *free*. Next up is loot drops. Specifically crap loot drops which everyone reprocessed. Chicken little would have been proud of the wailing over all those minerals that just 'magically' appeared. We didn't do any work for those either. The selling of those was 'killing' the economy. It was surely the end of the world. While selling any of those items was just shuffling ISK around, it was supposed to be oh so terrible because we didn't 'make' anything. It just appeared there.

So ... exactly how is spending $35 out of game dollars to make 2 items 'magically' appear, which I can then sell for around 1.2bil ( no crappy RNG involved on this one ) in any way different from the 'magical' economy killers above?

I can say it's a faucet, and all of you can claim it's a sink trying to prove your point. Split whatever hairs you want. Playing word games does absolutely zero getting your area of the game fixed. And my give-a-**** meter for all you Null folks has hit empty. This has already gone beyond the point where I really care if Null gets fixed or if it rots and becomes an empty wasteland. Standing up for all of you Null folks isn't worth the crap I get for my effort.

Remove clone upgrade costs and all insurance!!!

Here's a start for improving things in null:


Stop killing everything that moves for no reason.


I would imagine that the establishment out there could manage trade hubs.

But killmail addict gotta kill.

Where did you get the impression I am "goonhating"?
I am more complex than that.

- On a purely personal point of view I would never join GS because of:

- quite some villany exhibited by some members - they are GS supported at doing so. And I am not talking about gank miners as villany but at certain 4chan behaviors.

- it's an organization that reminds me too much of RL. Too many "grunt motivators", forums zerging, ideology supported by examples that had painful RL precedents and so on.


And then there are more objective reasons why GS as is, is a too big organization for EvE:

- you are able to make markets at whim and this is OK in WoW but less in a game where markets have a meaning.

- you outsmart CCP too much so you can gain further wealth and influence from an already hugely dominant position.

- your success has made 0.0 a too nasty task for everybody else who are not allies. This ruins diversity and slows the natural corps turnover in there.



But

The "other, business me" thinks that you are doing some of the best long term projects I have ever seen, your organization thru apparent dis-organization is something to envy, your "thinking out of the box" economy officers (you included) would be welcome everywhere by everyone, even in RL.
I have been hugely helped by GS:

- you brought me ISK with your Tech manipulations.

- you brought me insane ISK with your Hulkageddon. WHY did you stop it! I see people here still ganking stuff with a damn solo Brutix, why did you put Bat Country in retirement?

- you brought everyone beautiful things, from EvE Mon to EvE Map, from the PDF teaching how to manipulate grids to misc stuff like the spreadsheet to calculate reactions profitability.

- finally, you implemented the FW Forex, that as usual could result in good minded people (developers in this case) to see a great opportunity to reuse the concept into fun economy minigames but as usual they only saw a problem to destroy.




So why an abusive number of threads are constantly made exactly by those individual members complaining about no compelling income? They are not aliens, they come from your alliance not some bad renters.

If they rise hi sec taxes, what'll happen is that those taxes would just be flipped on finished products.
In order to make 0.0 production become competitive, they would have to make it absolutely punishing to do anything.

Also, totally separating 0.0 sec into self-sufficiency would reduce the supply routes with all the related gameplay. There would not even be a reason to come to hi sec at all and the markets and activity in hi sec would vertically decline.
Now, it looks cool, but once hi sec is castrated like that, people will 30% move outside hi sec and the rest would quit.
I understand you might not care the less about some large numbers of players who will never interact with you quitting, but somehow I think CCP does.

About hi frequency, HFT is practiced in RL too and while it's ugly, it has not caused enough damage to make it forbidden. In fact, due to the self-optimizing nature of the markets, HFT is now "mature" and the related profit has dropped. There have even been examples of large HFT funds failing or closing (Goldman Sachs Alpha fund being one of the most famous).

What they could do - at the risk of KILLING most traders - is to go the GW2 way and make any relist cost real, big money.

As for POCOs, it works like PLEX and similar, the NPC values are an ISK sink but also a thresold put to limit corps greedyness in place. What tax happy corp directors (anyone see RL similarities?) need is some way to tax more the richer inhabitants not to skullfu*k inhabitants living in other empires.