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Unintended effect of war on high sec?
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Herr Hammer Draken
#41 - 2012-11-09 12:55:17 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Simple solution: buff up Spodumain with low-end minerals so that it's worth ~85% of what Crokite is

Suddently those massive spodroids in the mining anomalies because useful and at least not utterly worthless to mine. Mining becomes popular in 0.0, and low-end minerals get supplied locally. 0.0 Industry becomes slightly less impractical. Tea and medals all round.


^^This.

My solution was to just make the mining anomalies have the low end minerals in Veld, Scordite etc. But that works.



I think more Veld and Scordite in null is the fix. You had it right the first time. Adding more rares in null does nothing economically if that rare stuff is no longer rare on the markets. That is the problem with nocxium, zydrine, and megacyte.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#42 - 2012-11-09 14:07:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Prices are low on the Nullsec ore because the risk to mine them is next to zero. Of course the Nullbears will never see this as they hide in their massive alliances.


I did spend some time in 0.0. Yeah... since we'd doc up (or station up) whenever a non-blue was in system... it was pretty safe.

This is basically the argument made to me by my friends that are still 0.0.... That the war on high sec has made 0.0 safer than high. I should "come on out". Meh. I don't like the politics or the titan conga lines.


Oh look another player who doesn't live in 0.0 saying that it's "safer than hi-sec". Not Big Surprise.

Ignoring the figures that show that PvP losses per player are something like 2000% higher in 0.0 than they are in hi-sec, if you think it's so much safer, why aren't you already there?


Although I wont jump into the argument of null vs. high safety, I will point out that comparing mining barge losses in null vs. high would be more relevant to the discussion of ore prices as opposed the the total ship losses that include all ship types.

Losses per player are much higher in null due to large fleet engagements, there could be other reasons as well but I'm sure the large coalition fleet fights have a pretty big impact on the numbers. I don't think these types of engagements make flying a mining barge in blue space very dangerous. That's not to say that i'm claiming it's safe to fly a mining barge in null either, only that fleet battles generally don't take place in asteroid belts and afaik generally don't involve mining barges on either side.

I'm not sure how to go about pulling numbers for mining barge losses in different security zones, but I'd love to see the numbers if anyone wants to do some digging.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-11-09 14:16:44 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Prices are low on the Nullsec ore because the risk to mine them is next to zero. Of course the Nullbears will never see this as they hide in their massive alliances.

Yes, it has nothing to do with the near limitless safety of high sec and the ability of people to mine endlessly without interuption.


Yes, thats what Nullsec is like. Glad you see the problem.

Natsett Amuinn wrote:

It's got nothing to do with pyrite being in nearly limitless demand, and scordite being present pretty much everywhere; ready and available to mine afk with no worries about losing a ship.

Obviously mining scordite in high sec has everything to do with null.


The OP was about the low value of 0.0 ore. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Funny you should mention reading comprehension Sherlock, maybe you should get a little of your own and look at the name of the person I quoted.

Genius.
Herbinator d'Arcadie
Arkadian Knight
#44 - 2012-11-09 15:08:47 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
I think more Veld and Scordite in null is the fix...

Null needs squat! It has near exclusive access to the bulk of Eve's wealth already.

You want Veld? Come and get it. Sheesh. Do null'rs have to be spoon-fed everything?


"Block" pigs. Refuse to fly with them.
Jeremy Soikutsu
Kite Co. Space Trucking
#45 - 2012-11-09 15:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremy Soikutsu
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Simple solution: buff up Spodumain with low-end minerals so that it's worth ~85% of what Crokite is

Suddently those massive spodroids in the mining anomalies because useful and at least not utterly worthless to mine. Mining becomes popular in 0.0, and low-end minerals get supplied locally. 0.0 Industry becomes slightly less impractical. Tea and medals all round.


^^This.

My solution was to just make the mining anomalies have the low end minerals in Veld, Scordite etc. But that works.



I think more Veld and Scordite in null is the fix.

Null has plenty of low-ends, there are non-Grav belts in case you had forgotten and they have plenty of high mins from what I've seen. The problem is that everyone does production in high because it's so hard to do in null. So if you made null mass production good you'd have people mining low-ends more in null, so at least indy pilots would have a reason to live in null.

To the thread OP "The War on High" has had a trivial effect on mineral prices. This should be obvious since things got ridiculous after the drone poo/meta 0 removal. Also your prices seem conservative, last time I checked Scord and Ark were much closer. That was a couple of weeks ago though, so whatever.

Herbinator d'Arcadie wrote:
Null needs squat! It has near exclusive access to the bulk of Eve's wealth already.

Yes I sure do love all those nanoribbons I get from null sleepers, or LP from null faction warfare.

"Of course you would choose the fun, but you don't lead a relevant entity which has allies." - Colonel Xaven
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#46 - 2012-11-09 15:24:20 UTC
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

To the thread OP "The War on High" has had a trivial effect on mineral prices. This should be obvious since things got ridiculous after the drone poo/meta 0 removal. Also your prices seem conservative, last time I checked Scord and Ark were much closer. That was a couple of weeks ago though, so whatever.


Ark: 296.99 isk/m3
Scord: 198.33 isk/m3
Pyroxeres: 203.45 isk/m3 (highest high sec ore atm)
J H H and B: 220+
Crokite: 206.51

Mega has gone up quite a bit in a week or so, acutally nocx/zyd/mega have all been trending upwards.

If zydrine goes up a bit more to say 950'ish p/u most of the null ores will be in a good place, aside from those that really need to fixed, I'm looking at you spodumain and gneiss.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-11-09 15:32:18 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

To the thread OP "The War on High" has had a trivial effect on mineral prices. This should be obvious since things got ridiculous after the drone poo/meta 0 removal. Also your prices seem conservative, last time I checked Scord and Ark were much closer. That was a couple of weeks ago though, so whatever.


Ark: 296.99 isk/m3
Scord: 198.33 isk/m3
Pyroxeres: 203.45 isk/m3 (highest high sec ore atm)
J H H and B: 220+
Crokite: 206.51

Mega has gone up quite a bit in a week or so, acutally nocx/zyd/mega have all been trending upwards.

If zydrine goes up a bit more to say 950'ish p/u most of the null ores will be in a good place, aside from those that really need to fixed, I'm looking at you spodumain and gneiss.

How does the quantities to refine factor in, or did you just look at what each ore costs per unit?

Even if Pyroxeres sells for less than Ark, if you need several hundred fewer to reprocess woudln't that mean that it's value is actually higher then the number indicates because you get more for less?
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#48 - 2012-11-09 15:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dar Manic
Silk daShocka wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

To the thread OP "The War on High" has had a trivial effect on mineral prices. This should be obvious since things got ridiculous after the drone poo/meta 0 removal. Also your prices seem conservative, last time I checked Scord and Ark were much closer. That was a couple of weeks ago though, so whatever.


Ark: 296.99 isk/m3
Scord: 198.33 isk/m3
Pyroxeres: 203.45 isk/m3 (highest high sec ore atm)
J H H and B: 220+
Crokite: 206.51

Mega has gone up quite a bit in a week or so, acutally nocx/zyd/mega have all been trending upwards.

If zydrine goes up a bit more to say 950'ish p/u most of the null ores will be in a good place, aside from those that really need to fixed, I'm looking at you spodumain and gneiss.


I'm not a miner by trade (but I'll take advantage of a WH when needed!!) but are those numbers correct? I can sell some of that stuff (ABC) for much more than that (found some in a WH recently). I'm not calling you out by any means.. if those numbers are correct then I would agree we have a problem somewhere. Just need to make sure we have accurate data before saying there is a problem.

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#49 - 2012-11-09 15:45:11 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

To the thread OP "The War on High" has had a trivial effect on mineral prices. This should be obvious since things got ridiculous after the drone poo/meta 0 removal. Also your prices seem conservative, last time I checked Scord and Ark were much closer. That was a couple of weeks ago though, so whatever.


Ark: 296.99 isk/m3
Scord: 198.33 isk/m3
Pyroxeres: 203.45 isk/m3 (highest high sec ore atm)
J H H and B: 220+
Crokite: 206.51

Mega has gone up quite a bit in a week or so, acutally nocx/zyd/mega have all been trending upwards.

If zydrine goes up a bit more to say 950'ish p/u most of the null ores will be in a good place, aside from those that really need to fixed, I'm looking at you spodumain and gneiss.

How does the quantities to refine factor in, or did you just look at what each ore costs per unit?

Even if Pyroxeres sells for less than Ark, if you need several hundred fewer to reprocess woudln't that mean that it's value is actually higher then the number indicates because you get more for less?


The numbers are post refine, isk/m3 of ore, selling at mineral values in Jita.

I mean they still could be better for the null ores, such as most if not all being worht at least 1.5x what high ores are worth, but they are trending upwards and have been for a bit which is good imo.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#50 - 2012-11-09 15:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Silk daShocka
Dar Manic wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

To the thread OP "The War on High" has had a trivial effect on mineral prices. This should be obvious since things got ridiculous after the drone poo/meta 0 removal. Also your prices seem conservative, last time I checked Scord and Ark were much closer. That was a couple of weeks ago though, so whatever.


Ark: 296.99 isk/m3
Scord: 198.33 isk/m3
Pyroxeres: 203.45 isk/m3 (highest high sec ore atm)
J H H and B: 220+
Crokite: 206.51

Mega has gone up quite a bit in a week or so, acutally nocx/zyd/mega have all been trending upwards.

If zydrine goes up a bit more to say 950'ish p/u most of the null ores will be in a good place, aside from those that really need to fixed, I'm looking at you spodumain and gneiss.


I'm not a miner by trade (but I'll take advantage of a WH when needed!!) but are those numbers correct? I can sell some of that stuff (ABC) for much more than that (found some in a WH recently). I'm not calling you out by any means.. if those numbers are correct then I would agree we have a problem somewhere. Just need to make sure we have accurate data before saying there is a problem.


http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore
http://eve.grismar.net/ore/ (< you have to manually input prices for this one)

Prices were all based on jita sell orders, this could be why it is different from what you have been selling ABC for, I'm not sure though since I don't know anything other than that you are acquiring ABC in a WH and can sell it somewhere for more than the listed prices.

Also the price on pyerite in Jita is very inflated atm which i didn't include in my prices. I set it at 12 since that's what I've been buying it for and apparently it's gone up quite a bit recently in Jita if it does stay at the current price (which i highly doubt) you can value scordite @ 209 and pyro @ 204.
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#51 - 2012-11-09 15:59:50 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Dar Manic wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

To the thread OP "The War on High" has had a trivial effect on mineral prices. This should be obvious since things got ridiculous after the drone poo/meta 0 removal. Also your prices seem conservative, last time I checked Scord and Ark were much closer. That was a couple of weeks ago though, so whatever.


Ark: 296.99 isk/m3
Scord: 198.33 isk/m3
Pyroxeres: 203.45 isk/m3 (highest high sec ore atm)
J H H and B: 220+
Crokite: 206.51

Mega has gone up quite a bit in a week or so, acutally nocx/zyd/mega have all been trending upwards.

If zydrine goes up a bit more to say 950'ish p/u most of the null ores will be in a good place, aside from those that really need to fixed, I'm looking at you spodumain and gneiss.


I'm not a miner by trade (but I'll take advantage of a WH when needed!!) but are those numbers correct? I can sell some of that stuff (ABC) for much more than that (found some in a WH recently). I'm not calling you out by any means.. if those numbers are correct then I would agree we have a problem somewhere. Just need to make sure we have accurate data before saying there is a problem.


http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore
http://eve.grismar.net/ore/ (< you have to manually input prices for this one)

Prices were all based on jita sell orders, this could be why it is different from what you have been selling ABC for, I'm not sure though since I don't know anything other than that you are acquiring ABC in a WH and can sell it somewhere for more than the listed prices.


Then I agree there is something wrong. Could be market shifts, etc. but could be an issue needs some balancing. I'm a 'leave it the f*ck alone' type person but this is indeed interesting atm.

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#52 - 2012-11-09 16:12:48 UTC
People manipulate markets in real life, so why would it be any different in a game with a market such as EVE? I would think that minerals would be the easiest to do it with as well considering that everyone needs them and there is no miner in EVE that is going to sell trit at 2 when it is going for above 6 in Jita. See high sec isn't what needs to be nerfed, Jita is.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#53 - 2012-11-09 16:15:35 UTC
Dar Manic wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Dar Manic wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Jeremy Soikutsu wrote:

To the thread OP "The War on High" has had a trivial effect on mineral prices. This should be obvious since things got ridiculous after the drone poo/meta 0 removal. Also your prices seem conservative, last time I checked Scord and Ark were much closer. That was a couple of weeks ago though, so whatever.


Ark: 296.99 isk/m3
Scord: 198.33 isk/m3
Pyroxeres: 203.45 isk/m3 (highest high sec ore atm)
J H H and B: 220+
Crokite: 206.51

Mega has gone up quite a bit in a week or so, acutally nocx/zyd/mega have all been trending upwards.

If zydrine goes up a bit more to say 950'ish p/u most of the null ores will be in a good place, aside from those that really need to fixed, I'm looking at you spodumain and gneiss.


I'm not a miner by trade (but I'll take advantage of a WH when needed!!) but are those numbers correct? I can sell some of that stuff (ABC) for much more than that (found some in a WH recently). I'm not calling you out by any means.. if those numbers are correct then I would agree we have a problem somewhere. Just need to make sure we have accurate data before saying there is a problem.


http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore
http://eve.grismar.net/ore/ (< you have to manually input prices for this one)

Prices were all based on jita sell orders, this could be why it is different from what you have been selling ABC for, I'm not sure though since I don't know anything other than that you are acquiring ABC in a WH and can sell it somewhere for more than the listed prices.


Then I agree there is something wrong. Could be market shifts, etc. but could be an issue needs some balancing. I'm a 'leave it the f*ck alone' type person but this is indeed interesting atm.


Well you really do have to look at the numbers over a longer period of time, as well as the volumes to really see if there's a problem. For instance the price of zydrine went up about 20% in 2 days, so 2 days ago these figures I posted would be quite different. I will say however though that for the past 2 months null ores have not been in a very good place price wise. They've only recently been rising to the prices i posted, zydrine was stuck at arond 700-750 for quite some time which has a prettty big impact on some null ores.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#54 - 2012-11-09 17:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Skydell
The 20% spike in the last few days is the result of the unstable south. I'd have taken that with a grain of salt myself if someone pointed it out but I watch other things unique to the sout like T2 Current Pumps and they are dried up. As I type this there are 18 available in Jita where 6 months ago there were thousands.

As for the more general discussion, it's a combination of high Sec miner harassment, bot crack downs and what I pointed out several times already. They spent years nerfing high sec to allow the Drone regions to be the mineral hub of the game, then took that hub out and never removed any of the nerfs they did to high sec. High Sec is no longer able to supply all of EVE with the high volume minerals. There aren't enough high volume (high Sec) miners or enough minerals. We would need to be clearing every belt to make up the difference the drone poo made and it's just not going to happen.
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#55 - 2012-11-09 17:14:05 UTC
Pretty much all of this proves my stance: LITFA... leave it the f*ck alone. Too many people screaming for too many changes to problems which probably don't exist. There are no scalpels to fix Eve, only hatchets. So many unintended changes occur too often. LITFA. Hands off, laissez faire might work wonders.

(these fluctuations maybe perfectly ok in a player driven economy.. we got ourselves into this mess and we can get our way out)

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-11-09 17:45:06 UTC
why, because some npc corp posters proved not to be an authority on risk-reward balance between regions, the game shouldn't be balanced?
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-11-09 17:57:52 UTC
Nerf Jita, leave minerals alone.

The problem you'll solve today for your important internet virtual mineral market trading will bring another tomorrow for your still internet virtual market trading.

The problem is not minerals.

The problem is not miners.

The problem is trading.

Buff trading, nerf miners?

lol

brb
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2012-11-09 18:00:40 UTC
see previous post
Bohoba
#59 - 2012-11-09 18:40:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bohoba wrote:



^this^

ease of gankagedon has pushed high sec ore up :) go ahead kill more miners lol



Not going to happen anymore. Its too expensive to run an interdiction that would make an impact these days so you can look forwards to a flood of max yeild bots destroying your mineral prices. They have already gutted the ice market.



Blue ice going for 154K each I don't see that as being gutted but one can never tell them bots or not :) I feel like a bot some days lol
Bohoba
#60 - 2012-11-09 18:46:35 UTC
Skydell wrote:
The 20% spike in the last few days is the result of the unstable south. I'd have taken that with a grain of salt myself if someone pointed it out but I watch other things unique to the sout like T2 Current Pumps and they are dried up. As I type this there are 18 available in Jita where 6 months ago there were thousands.

As for the more general discussion, it's a combination of high Sec miner harassment, bot crack downs and what I pointed out several times already. They spent years nerfing high sec to allow the Drone regions to be the mineral hub of the game, then took that hub out and never removed any of the nerfs they did to high sec. High Sec is no longer able to supply all of EVE with the high volume minerals. There aren't enough high volume (high Sec) miners or enough minerals. We would need to be clearing every belt to make up the difference the drone poo made and it's just not going to happen.



I don't think drone land put out that much

Miners have found other ways to make isk....farming plex's :) for one :) hear u can make good isk off them now