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Can't hit anything closer than 50% of max range
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Moistmuffin RKHT
My Little Uniponisus
#1 - 2012-11-09 01:48:26 UTC
So I have Gunnery 5 with rank 4 of Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis, Long Range Targeting, Rapid Fire, Controlled Bursts, Sharp Shooter and Small/Med/Large Turrets to 3

With my Megathron and 450mm Rails and current boosts to tracking rate, fire rate and sensor range I can lock on at around 100km and seem to do some really solid damage to ships at around 70-80km....but when they get to within 40km or less I can't hit them and rely solely on drones to kill things.

I figured this was just a battleship thing, but I noticed this similar on my Brutix and Myrm. That if I used rails whatever the max range is (say 60km) at about 40-50% of my max range I just stop hitting things. I read how rails and gallente suck so I fitted some blasters with antimatter instead but unfortunately on my megathron I can only shoot at things within about 20k and even then I'm missing.

My fix has been to go total drones so I got myself a Myrm and a Dom and fitted them with all the drony accessories I could think of and this has been working really well, but now what do I do with my high slots? And should I maybe train lazers or something else to use on Gallente ships?

I created Ave Molech and I love ponies.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-11-09 01:55:37 UTC
tracking mods.

There is no Bob.

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Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
#3 - 2012-11-09 02:13:22 UTC
TE and TC. Also, unless the Myrm has gotten a hybrid bonus (took a break, haven't checked since I've been back), AC > Hybrids on Myrm.

Dear lord, please help me deal with the insufferable....
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2012-11-09 02:30:19 UTC
Rails tracking is terrible, their sole purpose\use is for sniping. You could try using webby drones to help and 350's will work better than 450's and you don't loose all that much dps
PhatController
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-11-09 11:51:36 UTC
Working as intended. If you look at the info on your guns there is a minimum distance where tracking falls off very quickly.

You can either add tracking computers etc or just burn away from targets so there at optimum range.
Aptenodytes
Reckless Abandon
#6 - 2012-11-09 11:54:33 UTC
PhatController wrote:
If you look at the info on your guns there is a minimum distance where tracking falls off very quickly.

Really? What is that called?
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
#7 - 2012-11-09 13:19:55 UTC
Try installing Pyfa - eve fitting tool (external application: http://www.evefit.org/Pyfa).

This allows input of your character via API key, and fitting of a ship and gives you nice damage graphs which you can tweak. This might make things clearer and / or what good any changes you make can have. An excellent tool overall.

Only flaw I've found in the program is that the price of fittings isn't updated and is way lower than things actually cost (static updated prices on the build perhaps?).

Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html
Angelina Joliee
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-11-09 14:13:53 UTC
Javelin-Ammo helps a bit.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#9 - 2012-11-09 14:39:14 UTC
Google how optimal range and falloff work in EVE.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but really, I think you not knowing why you don't hit anything is a bigger problem than you not hitting.

Angelina Joliee wrote:
Javelin-Ammo helps a bit.

I do believe you mean "Spike".
Seraph Castillon
In Control
Neon Nightmares
#10 - 2012-11-09 14:47:53 UTC
AFAIK T2 ammo's still have a tracking penalty. So how would that help? Use regular antimatter instead.

If I'm reading the formula correctly you do gain some hit chance by reducing your optimal. But ... I don't think that will compensate for the tracking penalty T2 ammo gets.

fyi:

Spike = long
Javelin = short
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#11 - 2012-11-09 15:36:33 UTC
Ok, let's go: Look at your guns for the Trackingspeed / Accuracy attribute. It tells how fast your guns can track another ship to shoot at it. Now look at the attribute Signature Resolution. It is used to modify your chance to hit that ship. If its signature is smaller than this attribute, it will lower your chance to hit. Now, on the overview, add the angular velocity column. It is the number that is used to calculate your chance to hit against the tracking attribute.
With this information, the way to make better your hit chance is:
- Augment your tracking speed, by the use of a tracking computer or a tracking enhancer, skills or a rig;
- Make the ship you're shooting at "bigger", if its signature radius is less than your guns signature resolution, by using a target painter;
- Lower the angular velocity of the other ship relative to yours. You can do it by making the other ship slower, using webs, or to keep it at a distance, or, better yet, by flying your ship in a way that makes this number lower. One way of doing this is by looking at your target, and then flying in the same direction as it.

A turret ship should not stay static like a missile ship, you should fly your ship in a way that it lowers as much as possible the angular velocity of your target.

All of this information I took from flying turret battleships, like the Rokh, and she doesn't have a tracking bonus like the megathron.

Hope this helps you.
Moistmuffin RKHT
My Little Uniponisus
#12 - 2012-11-09 16:31:17 UTC
Thanks all, seems like since I already am using a TC, TE and a Webifier with the Rails/Blasters I should stack more TC/TE or add some rigs, though I don't see these as popular for other mega or brutix builds on evemon.

I'm actually getting used to the drones with the dom and myrm so I may just stick with that.

I created Ave Molech and I love ponies.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#13 - 2012-11-09 16:42:03 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:
AFAIK T2 ammo's still have a tracking penalty. So how would that help? Use regular antimatter instead.


It doesn't. Jav now gets a tracking bonus, not a penalty. This is true of all short range/high damage ammo for long range guns (javelin, gleam, and quake). Change went through with the hybrid changes.

Seraph Castillon wrote:
If I'm reading the formula correctly you do gain some hit chance by reducing your optimal. But ... I don't think that will compensate for the tracking penalty T2 ammo gets.


You're not. This is probably the single most common misconception about the tracking/damage formula.

The formula relies on two totally independent mechanics. The first is optimal and falloff (the range portion). Provided that guns can track (see below) they will always do full damage from 0 range up to optimal range. Falloff then reduces both hit chance and damage in a non-linear fashion so that at optimal + falloff you're doing ~40% damage from range alone.

The second mechanic is tracking. Provided that guns are at or under optimal range, they will do full damage if the targets transversal velocity is at or below the gun's tracking velocity. This is also modified by the gun's signature resolution and the target's signature radius, but let's ignore that for now. So basically, if an appropriately-sized target is at or under optimal, the only variable that affects damage and hit chance is radial velocity (that is, a snapshot in time of relative trajectories, where a target heading directly towards or directly away from the ship shooting it will get hit perfectly).

Again, these two factors are totally independent of one another. Which is to say, there is no inherent penalty in shooting at a ship at under optimal range. Reducing your optimal will not help you track.

Does that help at all?
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#14 - 2012-11-09 17:10:15 UTC
Moistmuffin RKHT wrote:
Thanks all, seems like since I already am using a TC, TE and a Webifier with the Rails/Blasters I should stack more TC/TE or add some rigs, though I don't see these as popular for other mega or brutix builds on evemon.

I'm actually getting used to the drones with the dom and myrm so I may just stick with that.

Ok, but there's one thing that you doesn't seem to have absorved: You should FLY your ship. It's an important part of using turrets in PVE.
Nebu Retski
Lead Farmers
#15 - 2012-11-09 18:54:50 UTC
Aptenodytes wrote:
PhatController wrote:
If you look at the info on your guns there is a minimum distance where tracking falls off very quickly.

Really? What is that called?

It's called math!
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-11-09 22:09:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleidascope
If you want to maximize you dps with rails, use kiting/chase tactic to help your tracking.

Chase
Refers to you running away from rats. Rats chase you. What it does for you is that rats line up when they chase you. Since they line up, your guns don't need to track them as much. So you do more hits.

Kiting
Kiting is variation on chasing tactic. The difference between the two is that in chasing you just keep running away from rats. In kiting you use Keep at Range, instead of Orbit. The keep at range keeps you in line with the rat of your choice so again your guns do minimum of tracking and you score more hits on target. But you don't get as far away from rats as with chasing so less travel time if there are several groups of rats.

Both tactics require some speed because as you have noted, the slow tracking weapons like your rails don't really work well when rats get under your guns. In situation where you warp in close to rats, simply run toward some station or gate or asteroid field. The more distance you put between yourself and rats, the safer you are. Also forces you to manage agro. Your biggest danger are the scram frigs. That is where your drones come in and if you have a slot, add rapid launchers.

The overall key is not the fit, but the tactic. Choose your tactic, then make fit to work with that tactic. You use long range, slow tracking guns. Your tactic should be staying far away, and making rats line up for you. Making them chase you is the simple way to accomplish it. This also works for winmatar artillery.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!
Moistmuffin RKHT
My Little Uniponisus
#17 - 2012-11-09 22:24:00 UTC
Caleidascope wrote:
Your biggest danger are the scram frigs. That is where your drones come in and if you have a slot, add rapid launchers.


Thanks, I actually had been using Heavy missiles to focus on the other BS/BC's in the missions I run, but I had forgotten about the smaller missiles I could be using for those annoying frigates.

I created Ave Molech and I love ponies.
Billy Kidd
Breaking Plaid
#18 - 2012-11-10 00:01:20 UTC
This is why you're missing:

1. Open up your overview settings and add the "Angular Velocity" column for your overview

2. Click show info on your guns and remember the tracking speed (It should be a small number).

3. Compare the number shown in the angular velocity column to your tracking speed.

4. If the target is a cruiser, multiply the target's angular velocity by 4. If the target is a frigate, multiply the velocity by 8.

5. If the target's adjusted angular velocity is lower than your tracking speed, you will hit your target. The closer the angular velocity is to zero, the better you will hit.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#19 - 2012-11-12 18:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Aptenodytes wrote:
PhatController wrote:
If you look at the info on your guns there is a minimum distance where tracking falls off very quickly.

Really? What is that called?


I thought optimum falloff is a +/-
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Aptenodytes
Reckless Abandon
#20 - 2012-11-13 10:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aptenodytes
DarthNefarius wrote:
Aptenodytes wrote:
PhatController wrote:
If you look at the info on your guns there is a minimum distance where tracking falls off very quickly.

Really? What is that called?


I thought optimum falloff is a +/-

No. Optimal and falloff do not affect hit chance, they only affect damage. Anything up to optimal, you will do 100% damage, then as you go to optimal+falloff it decreases down to 50%. After optimal+falloff it decreases even more until at optimal+2xfalloff it is almost zero.

The other thing that affects damage is the type of hit you get eg glancing blow, good hit, wrecking shot whatever they're called these days :) The type of hit is determined by your tracking, and the target's sig radius and angular velocity. Optimal and falloff do not affect tracking.
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