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Minmatar Capitals are being re-worked

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Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#141 - 2011-10-18 22:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruah Piskonit
Kazanir, did you read any of the posts before yours?

As well written and well thought out they are, I get the distinct impression you decided to completely ignore any previous post.

Anyway, I disagree with a few of your points. Even if you do compile the problems well.

it is too bad that the previous forums are not around anymore since there was a really good discussion between some of your corp-mates (one), some previous BoB members (two from dice if memory serves) where a lot of your topic as well as a few other strange suggestions were brought up. The post was within a month of the forum switch over and I may go digging around for it - but I doubt anyone will read it.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2011-10-19 03:28:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Gypsio III wrote:


Leave the Naglfar with the split weapon system so the Phoenix isn't the only missile-using dreadnought (which would make it (even more) unwanted and effectively useless), but ensure that the Naglfar has a significant DPS advantage over even the Moros in compensation.



No. The shortest range, heaviest cap usage weapon system in the game (already that way for a blaster moros, will get even worse fyi), should have a DPS advantage over a ship that can choose between an armor (matches capital meta-game) or shield (stronger (doubly so) burst active tank) tank easily and uses weapons that do not require capacitor while having good damage type selection. If anything, rework capital missiles because they are **** in general.

Capitals rails are about to be decent in comparison to beams, that may need to be reworked slightly (the beams will do less dps, have shorter range, and still use more capacitor than the rails... the only advantage beams will have is hitting shield em hole, instant range switching, better tracking, and about 20k EHP on the ship).

Copied from dev blog discussion, adding in Naglfar numbers for relevance to topic:
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The following are comparisons of T2 fit Dreads (Moros, Revelation, and Naglfar):

All 5s, 3x damage (Gyros for Naglfar) mods for guns (no tracking mods in atm, using t1 ammo, though it is actually economical to use faction on rev) now:

Moros - 3483 at 60+30, 1451 at 192+30
+Potential 600 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 450 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Moros (1.47x) - 5120 at 50+30, 2132 at 192+30

Moros (Blasters) - 6866 at 19+19, 3123 at 60+19
+Potential 600 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 450 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
Moros New (Blasters) (1.47x) - 10,093 at 19+19, 4590 at 60+19

Rev (Beam) - 3743 at 50+40, 1560 at 160+40
+Potential 300 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 225 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Rev (Beam) (1.1x) - 4117 at 50+40, 1716 at 160+40

Rev (Pulse) - 6222 DPS at 23+13, 2592 at 75+13
+Potential 300 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 225 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Rev (Pulse) (1.1x) - 6844 at 23+13, 2851 at 75+13

Naglfar (Auto + Torp) - 6232 at 16+24 (<59.1), 3491 at 50+24 (<59.1)
+Potential 300 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 225 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Naglfar (Auto + Torp) (1.1x) - 6876 at 16+24 (<59.1), 3852 at 50+24 (<59.1)

Naglfar (Arty + Cruise) - 3643 at 35+88 (<191.3), 2036 at 144+88 (<191.3)
+Potential 300 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 225 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Naglfar (Arty + Cruise) - 4019 at 35+88 (<191.3), 2246 at 144+88 (<191.3)

Tracking Comparison (Sieged):
Rail - 0.0012
Blaster - 0.00338
Beam - 0.0014
Pulse - 0.00253
Arty - 0.00118
Auto - 0.00319

Capacitor comparison:

Moros Base Cap - +57.5
3 Rails 3 Damage Mods - -77.5
3 Blasters 3 Damage Mods - -92.3
New:
3 Rails 3 Damage Mods - -103.3
3 Blasters 3 Damage Mods - -123.1

Revelation Base Cap - +57.5
3 Beams 3 Damage Mods - -105
3 Pulses 3 Damage Mods - -62.7

Naglfar Base Cap - +57.5
2 Arty 2 Cruise 3 Damage Mods - -0
2 Auto 2 Torp 3 Damage Mods - -0

ATM, the blasters use much more cap, and will use any more, the changes to long range weapons, however, put the rails using almost the same cap as the rev's guns use.

Armor EHP comparison(3x trimark Is, 2x EANM IIs, 1x DCU II)
Moros - 2,049,789
Revelation - 2,058,336
Naglfar (remove one EANM because of low slots, you should really be shield tanking this ship anyway) - 1,635,112

Shield EHP (Nag only - 3x Large Core Defence Field Extender, 2x invul IIs, DCU II)
Naglfar - 1,906,907 (Unaffected by compensation skills, does not require 5x lvl 5 skills to reach this level)
Naglfar (+1 invul (3 total) because, lets face it, you should be replacing a TC with a TE if shield fitted...) - 2,112,473
I would say that the new rail Moros is clearly superior to the beam Revelation (which is fine by me, given the number of years in which the opposite was true...)


Other Relevant, not discussed benefits
Lasers - Instant range selection
Hybrids - ...
Projectiles / Missiles - Damage Selection

Range Modifiers (Quick Reference):
1x T2 TC w/ Optimal: (1.15x)+(1.3x)
2x T2 TC w/ Optimal: (1.30x)+(1.64x)

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Food for thought. Remember, I am in no way saying that capital missiles do not need to be reworked (30% reduction in explosion radius and double explosion velocity would be a good start), but simply saying that the Naglfar HAD BETTER HAVE THE BEST DPS is foolish, given the benefits that the Naglfar has.

On the Shield EHP value, I suggest:

Slaves affect armor, shields, and hull (for all ships).
Crystals affect armor tank, shield tank, and hull tank (for all ships).

(Assuming perfect Titan / T3 boosters): on jump in, shield Supers have ~70% of the EHP of equivalent armor ships (lets assume that the Hel gets a bonus to drone bay or something useful that makes it equivalent to the Nyx). After being repped up, shield supers have 120% of the EHP of equivalent armor ships. This means that shield supers, which are more vulnerable to neuts due to never fitting passive mods, would, unbonused or after reps post bonus, have higher EHP than armor supers. With preparation and coordination, shield supers will be superior, but for moving around the galaxy quickly, armor supers will take the day (the exact opposite of, say, subcaps, but it at least sounds somewhat balanced as compared to, say, the current situation).

The Nid could use an EHP buff in both armor and shields, but should otherwise remain as is. At the moment, it is one of the most interesting of the carriers to use, if only because a remote shield nid must run self armor reps, while a remote armor nid must run self shield reps... EDIT: Referring to fitting triage on it, remember that module when suggesting ways to balance it.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#143 - 2011-10-19 22:32:06 UTC
A very good post.

I think i will be trainign for a Moros now, superior damage at all ranges, and a cap usage issue that can be worked around.

The idea of the slave set giving equal bonuses to shield, armour and hull is interesting... have the same increase in amount but for all 3 levels.

A possible alternative to that would be, if CCP thinks that is OP, 3 separate Slave omega implants, one for shield, armour and hull in turn. let the 5 normal implants give bonuses to shield, armour and hull, but let the one specific omega give it's boost to only the shields, armour or hull

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SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#144 - 2011-10-19 22:48:28 UTC
I'm training towards the Nalgfar because it's vertical.

No I don't think you quite understand why I'm training for it. Because, it is, mutherfukken vertical. A god damn XXXL Rusted Myrmidon Ruler of the Planets of the Right-Honorable Space-guild that GSF is. You know, a Dreadnought.

But it ain't no regular dread. It's vertical bro.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2011-10-20 02:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Headerman wrote:
A very good post.

I think i will be trainign for a Moros now, superior damage at all ranges, and a cap usage issue that can be worked around.

The idea of the slave set giving equal bonuses to shield, armour and hull is interesting... have the same increase in amount but for all 3 levels.

A possible alternative to that would be, if CCP thinks that is OP, 3 separate Slave omega implants, one for shield, armour and hull in turn. let the 5 normal implants give bonuses to shield, armour and hull, but let the one specific omega give it's boost to only the shields, armour or hull


Thanks.

For nullsec combat, the rail DPS is probably the most important thing to look at. Getting a blaster moros in range to apply its omgwtfbbq dps is rather difficult there. After all, there is a reason most people use(d) snipe dreads pre dominion.

Rail moros is going to be OP; it should deal less damage, if only slightly, than the higher cap usage (pre and post changes) beam revelation. However, given how long it has been since "rails" and "OP" have been in the same sentence... I really cannot understand why CCP could not look at the numbers first.

In all honesty, guns that use cap should do more damage (per second) than guns that do not, unless they are missiles that suffer from some other problems (and have some unique bonuses as well).

Cap issues for blasters, which have always been the highest capacitor usage capital weapons, can be worked around by replacing trimarks with CCCs, sebos / TCs with cap rechargers, and tank / damage mods with capacitor power relays. All of these are sacrifices that a ship that does not use cap for its guns / missiles does not need to take (The added benefit being that these mods are useful when taking your cap from point A to point B without using wormholes).

Remember, capitals are used in w-space as well as null, and in w-space, being neuted out is a real risk. The reward is face-raping DPS. Having said that, the new moros is going to be a destabilizing influence on wormhole space capital warfare, given exactly how quickly one (or two) will be able to **** up a triage carrier.

As far as CCP considering the new slaves OP, the other portions of the super capitals in question (not exactly an issue with capitals or subcapitals) could have their HP reduced in anticipation of this. Either way, the vast majority of hitpoints will be in the primary tank. My only complaint other than that the value of high-grade slaves will go up for those of us that do not want to use them for supers, is that CCP may forget to change crystals to boost armor and (lol) hull tanks...you know you would...

Also, I forgot to add in the overheated EHP on those Naglfar shield fits, something that the Moros and Revelation cannot take advantage of... (and the post is too long despite there being X>0 characters remaining when I edit the post for me to add it to the post)

One thing that comes up with the Naglfar a lot is that it requires more SP to pilot, and that that should somehow translate to more DPS. As demonstrated, the Naglfar is already better in certain areas. The problem that I have with the argument is that it can be used as an excuse for every comparison between Mimnitar and Gallente. For instance, a shield gank Hurricane set up for maximum DPS will out-perform a shield gank brutix in every circumstance. This says nothing of the Typhoon vs Megathron DPS comparison, etc. I do hope that this is fixed in the upcoming patch, as long as it will not result in Gallente being overpowered and me being accused of being a FOTM *** because I can fly Gallente (and only Gallente on this char for the last 3.5 years or so). Also, having the higher SP required to (properly) fly a supercapital should not mean you face-**** everyone else. Similarly, being able to use both weapon types should not mean that you...ya know, I am repeating myself...

Other things that I forgot to mention:
Revelation: Ammo uses little room (more siege cycles and / or fuel), faction ammo can be used to bash poses and shoot at things other than other players without a huge expense.
Xhondo Dhoru
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#146 - 2011-10-20 02:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Xhondo Dhoru
Naglfar:
  • Minus 2 launchers
  • Minus 2 highslots
  • + Role Bonus: % capital projectile damage increase
    • SUP I FIXED THE NAG (and we don't have to wait 3 years for the art department to make a new ship model)



    Also. I'm about to jump into a carrier. I have all my support skills ready (jdc5, fighters4, rep/rr, etc) and minmatar bs lvl5.
    Nidhoggur is SO BAD that I am going to spend an extra 30 days to train amarr bs 5 for archon.
    Please tell me nid is getting some love.
    Demon Azrakel
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #147 - 2011-10-20 03:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
    Xhondo Dhoru wrote:
    Naglfar:
  • Minus 2 launchers
  • Minus 2 highslots
  • + Role Bonus: % capital projectile damage increase
    • SUP I FIXED THE NAG (and we don't have to wait 3 years for the art department to make a new ship model)



    Also. I'm about to jump into a carrier. I have all my support skills ready (jdc5, fighters4, rep/rr, etc) and minmatar bs lvl5.
    Nidhoggur is SO BAD that I am going to spend an extra 30 days to train amarr bs 5 for archon.
    Please tell me nid is getting some love.


    To be honest, I do not think that the Naglfar actually lagged behind post-dominion (if anything, the Moros was in the shitter as they took away its carrier-class drone DPS). If I recall, it performed rather well. The Nidhoggur needs a flat HP buff to both armor and shields (Not resist increase, just HP). Given that it is one of the more interesting carriers to fit / fly and I do not want the option to fit it with either taken away. On an somewhat relate note, the Chimera needs more CPU, at least 15%. If you are having trouble fitting a Nidhoggur, realize that it is actually designed to use a self tank different than its remote tank. 5% per level bonus to RR could be upped to 7.5% per level though.

    Having said that, if it dies early in a fight because it has the rep bonus, think of it like a logi ship. You shoot those first because they are effective.
    Mentat Cthulhu
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #148 - 2011-10-20 03:11:19 UTC
    Remove launchers and give it a web and tp bonus.
    Demon Azrakel
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #149 - 2011-10-20 03:17:21 UTC
    Mentat Cthulhu wrote:
    Remove launchers and give it a web and tp bonus.


    No, a dread should need support to deal with smaller ships tackling it (or to do the webbing / painting for it). A dread is not an ewar ship.
    Ruah Piskonit
    PIE Inc.
    Khimi Harar
    #150 - 2011-10-20 05:35:05 UTC
    The dreads were arguably the most balanced of all the capitals. The Nag just needs a little more armor or shields (and pick one! - but that is constant with all the Mini capts).

    As for the proposed slave buff - sorry - I do think its a little imba. . .especially for shield capitals.
    Demon Azrakel
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #151 - 2011-10-20 12:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
    Ruah Piskonit wrote:
    The dreads were arguably the most balanced of all the capitals. The Nag just needs a little more armor or shields (and pick one! - but that is constant with all the Mini capts).

    As for the proposed slave buff - sorry - I do think its a little imba. . .especially for shield capitals.


    Have you read through all of the posts that show similar EHP is rather similar between shield capitals and armor capitals if you remove slaves from the equation or add slaves to shield ships? You realize that, if the slave changes go through, the shield capitals will still be at a significant disadvantage because of how bonuses are applied on jump in? You do realize that there is a reason that this discussion is happening, and it is not happening because shields are OP or simply mildly underpowered?

    Ignoring the whole Hel having a ****** bonus issue, and the issue about how bonuses are applied differently on jump in for shield ships vs armor ships, shield supers are still significantly outclassed by armor supers because of slaves alone.
    Lugalzagezi666
    #152 - 2011-10-20 13:46:57 UTC
    The issue with how shield amount bonus is applied creates as much unbalance between armor and shield caps as slave sets. Once they fix this two issues, there wont be need for any big changes to cap ship shield/armor/hull amount to achieve very good balance.
    Aamrr
    #153 - 2011-10-20 13:57:00 UTC
    Long story short: If slaves were removed from the equation and leadership bonuses were adjusted appropriately, shield capitals would get slightly more EHP than their armor counterparts, at the cost of vulnerability to energy neutralization. This sounds like a pretty well-balanced outcome, to me.

    Rationale: Shield hardeners consume more capacitor than armor hardeners do, and while they lack passive omni-resist modules, invulns give a larger bonus than EANMs. Shield boosters and transporters give better throughput at worse capacitor efficiency. Finally, the oft-used CN PDUs don't give as much cap recharge as cap rechargers do, but allow shield tanks to improve their EHP with both mid and low slots.
    EmmerTemp
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #154 - 2011-10-20 14:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: EmmerTemp
    The thing with shield Supers is that they rely to much on Capacitor.
    The Wyvern and the Hel aren't that bad at tanking, but once they have some Neuts on them they melt...
    All the modules on these ship are active and turned of with no Cap.
    the Nyx and Aeon have some passive hardeners, so still have some resist with no cap for active modules.

    Also yeah... the implant sets... don't what to think... I just know that it is not right ^^
    EmmerTemp
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #155 - 2011-10-20 14:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: EmmerTemp
    Kazanir wrote:
    Now for a very Minmatar-specific problem:

    1. Make the Hel the only supercarrier capable of fitting a triage module. (This would probably require a boost to its cap regen stats.) This would make the Hel the only supercarrier able to change roles from DPS machine to essentially an impervious spacepriest.



    Sound very good... make it a very big logistic ship/space priest

    But on the other hand... active Triage prevents you from receiving remote reps,
    so you will be primary at that moment and nobody can safe you.
    Unless you have insane active tank ^^ which you don't have
    Headerman
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #156 - 2011-10-21 22:34:50 UTC
    Yeah Triage on a 16 bil ship when it would work just as fine on a 700m ship... :-S

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    SMT008
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #157 - 2011-10-21 22:56:39 UTC
    Don't make it a triage thingy.

    Really.

    All supercarriers should have valid role in a fleet, or at least not something along the lines of "OH GOD NO DON'T BRING THAT SHIP IT'S AN USELESS PIECE OF CRAP".

    I mean, don't differentiate the Hel too much from other supercarriers. Two possibilities => It turns out it's awesome, and every supercarrier fleet should have as many hels as possible, or it's still a piece of crap, bring a Nyx if you can.
    Alexandria Aesirial
    Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
    Deepwater Hooligans
    #158 - 2011-10-22 14:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexandria Aesirial
    The HEL/NIDHOGGUR need a substantial boost to their tank. We don't want only archons on field anymore!!. Improvement can come in form of slot layout revamp and EHP redistribution. It also needs more cap to run proper logistics.
    Do not forget caldari capitals too!!! The difference in terms of tank between the levi and avatar. It's either you provide deadspace shield invulnerability fields up to meta 13 or increase the raw shield EHP on the supercapitals, which isn't the best route tbh.

    It's only blobbing when you lose, otherwise it's good fleet comp.
    Murtific
    Collapsed Out
    Pandemic Legion
    #159 - 2011-10-23 00:27:27 UTC
    Give the nidhoggur

    8% bonus to armor and shield transfer ammount per carrier level instead of the 5%.

    Give it an agility bonus as well.




    Increase the repping transfer ammount to make it more of a viable use for triage operations. It may not be as robust as the Archon, but it will put some reps in before the duct tape melts.

    Give it an agility bonus to allow it to be more versatile as a combat support carrier that is able to align with a fleet that may be moving around in system. May give way for more tactical uses of carriers.
    Demon Azrakel
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #160 - 2011-10-23 02:20:55 UTC
    Murtific wrote:
    Give the nidhoggur

    8% bonus to armor and shield transfer ammount per carrier level instead of the 5%.

    Give it an agility bonus as well.




    Increase the repping transfer ammount to make it more of a viable use for triage operations. It may not be as robust as the Archon, but it will put some reps in before the duct tape melts.

    Give it an agility bonus to allow it to be more versatile as a combat support carrier that is able to align with a fleet that may be moving around in system. May give way for more tactical uses of carriers.


    CCP would probably do 7.5% per level. This is not a bad idea, but it could still use some more HP/EHP (NOT a resist bonus, that is what the archon has, but a flat HP bonus to let it survive longer while throwing out tons of reps)