These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Lvl 4's: AC's or artillery?

Author
The Bionis
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-11-08 23:36:48 UTC
on my main character, I've tried multiple things to run lvl 4's, but none of them worked adequately; Drake seems too fragile and too low DPS to use, and after retribution (i ASSUME) it won't be an option anyway, a raven had the same issue, WAY too little tank, even less DPS than my drake, an apoc was okay for sansha missions, but any other faction broke my tank just a bit too much (not to mention most resisted EM damage way too much), and an abaddon had the same issues, with added cap problems even.
Now, taking into account what I know about retribution, meaning drones will get aggro'd, and my disliking for most gallente ships, I decided to try out minmatar ships. I'm aiming for a Maelstrom, with a full T2 fit (guns meta 4) available in about a month. With an Autocannon fit, i'd get about 345 DPS, 1569 alpha WITH CURRENT SKILLS, NONE OF WHICH INVOLVE LARGE AUTOCANNON SPECIFIC SKILLS. It utilizes an X-large booster II with SBA II, giving me 816 shield boost per cycle (again, with current skills, ship bonus and a shield skill or two will be added to this)

I would use autocannons without an afterburner (although I could possibly drop a tracking computer for an ab), it seems like a really good fit to me, not expecting artillery guns to do any better. If this Maelstrom goes well, I would probably look into going to a machariel later, when I got T2 guns and the elite shield tanking+gun specific certificates.
(To note: most, if not all missions will be run in amarr space, which is different from where i've done missions before, meaning gallente space. I don't expect myself to be able to tank the missions at all yet, nor do I expect to immediately be able to solo all of them.)

TL;DR: Which projectile turret would be better to fit on a Maelstrom, and later possible a Machariel, to run lvl 4 missions?

(PS: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/60316-Maelstrom-mealstrom-mission-runner.html <---- This is the fit I am going to use in the case of AC's)
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-11-08 23:47:36 UTC
Sorry man but with your skill level there is no way you can do lvl 4 effectively no matter weapon type.
Your skills are obviously bad, you fitting skills are even worse. I just recommend running a search on forums for arty maelstorm and stay with that till you learn the ropes.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2012-11-09 00:26:16 UTC
Your best bet is to post your fits. I don't think its a skill issue, i think you are probably fitting your BS's to be as cap stable as possible. As an example, a Raven will absolutely out DPS and tank a drake and you should see a difference in mission times even with T1 cruise launchers. I have use a mach with meta 4 ac's and it still works extremely well and is something you should aim for.. but as said, show fits and we can advise... otherwise you going to get trolled like above Roll Happy to help out in game also..
Nor Tzestu
Dos Pollos Hermanos
Ghosts from the Abyss
#4 - 2012-11-09 02:07:03 UTC
The Bionis wrote:
on my main character, I've tried multiple things to run lvl 4's, but none of them worked adequately; Drake seems too fragile and too low DPS to use, and after retribution (i ASSUME) it won't be an option anyway, a raven had the same issue, WAY too little tank, even less DPS than my drake, an apoc was okay for sansha missions, but any other faction broke my tank just a bit too much (not to mention most resisted EM damage way too much), and an abaddon had the same issues, with added cap problems even.
Now, taking into account what I know about retribution, meaning drones will get aggro'd, and my disliking for most gallente ships, I decided to try out minmatar ships. I'm aiming for a Maelstrom, with a full T2 fit (guns meta 4) available in about a month. With an Autocannon fit, i'd get about 345 DPS, 1569 alpha WITH CURRENT SKILLS, NONE OF WHICH INVOLVE LARGE AUTOCANNON SPECIFIC SKILLS. It utilizes an X-large booster II with SBA II, giving me 816 shield boost per cycle (again, with current skills, ship bonus and a shield skill or two will be added to this)

I would use autocannons without an afterburner (although I could possibly drop a tracking computer for an ab), it seems like a really good fit to me, not expecting artillery guns to do any better. If this Maelstrom goes well, I would probably look into going to a machariel later, when I got T2 guns and the elite shield tanking+gun specific certificates.
(To note: most, if not all missions will be run in amarr space, which is different from where i've done missions before, meaning gallente space. I don't expect myself to be able to tank the missions at all yet, nor do I expect to immediately be able to solo all of them.)

TL;DR: Which projectile turret would be better to fit on a Maelstrom, and later possible a Machariel, to run lvl 4 missions?

(PS: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/60316-Maelstrom-mealstrom-mission-runner.html <---- This is the fit I am going to use in the case of AC's)



That fit you listed is just....so bad. Fit your Mael like you would a Mach. Forget CC rigs, you NEED to cap inject if your going to run a XL booster. Add a DPS rig, a falloff rig and a EM rig if your going to be in amarr space. I know only one hardener of each type sounds scary but it's plenty in a cap injecting Mael with its boost bonus. All that said I can send you my one size fits all mission Mael fit in game if you want. Swap ammo and drones/hardeners and it will clean up missions in any space, against any rats in really good time. The Mael is easily my favorite non faction/t2 mission ship in the game now.
Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
#5 - 2012-11-09 02:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Spectre Wraith
When I do the occasional mission out of boredom on my Mach, I would never use anything other than 800 ACs. Much of what the previous posters have said is also correct, you should cap inject when XL boosting. You're not going into the mission as a tank but as a dmg dealer, so fit as such with enough tank to overcome the maximum dps output for a short period of time. You'll see that as you kill everything much faster, there is much less need to tank, your dps is your tank.

Dear lord, please help me deal with the insufferable....

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#6 - 2012-11-09 07:17:54 UTC
I run L4s in mael fit more or less like this:
- highs - large AC (meta until I could use t2 then obviously switched to t2)
- mids - t2 heavy cap booster, meta4 XLSB, AB, hardeners according to mission
- lows - t2 gyros and TEs
- rigs - t1 burst and ambit, maybe collision? definitely nothing about cap or fitting

I think it is more or less standard mael fit. It served me well until I made enough to buy a Mach which basically I fitted like my mael. Put something like this in EFT or EveHQ and see what skills you need to fly it and what skills affect this fit. Then put them in plan, set everything to V and train.

Mael has bonus for shield active tanking, use it. Get yourself into comfortable tank and switch training to gank. While you will do more damage you can scale down your tanking accordingly. Then switch to Mach and enjoy gank'em with barrel rolls style :)

Invalid signature format

Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-11-09 07:25:01 UTC
Minmatar BSs are very skill intensive. If you can mission in Angel space, I suggest you do it.
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#8 - 2012-11-09 08:25:18 UTC
Don't listen to these noobs, it's really easy to make a perma-run XL shield booster on a freaking BATTLESHIP without sacrificing dps. Non-permanent repping will likely get you killed when you'll get the socket closed error.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#9 - 2012-11-09 08:37:57 UTC
MinefieldS wrote:
Don't listen to these noobs, it's really easy to make a perma-run XL shield booster on a freaking BATTLESHIP without sacrificing dps. Non-permanent repping will likely get you killed when you'll get the socket closed error.


Show us your cap stable perma XLSB running battulship fit then. Especially the one doing 800-900 dps and tanking 400-500 dps.

Invalid signature format

Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#10 - 2012-11-09 10:20:37 UTC
MinefieldS wrote:
Don't listen to these noobs, it's really easy to make a perma-run XL shield booster on a freaking BATTLESHIP without sacrificing dps. Non-permanent repping will likely get you killed when you'll get the socket closed error.

Fit or it didn't happen.
Aptenodytes
Reckless Abandon
#11 - 2012-11-09 11:59:12 UTC
That Mael fit looks OK to me, but I would use semiconductor rigs instead of CC (the ones that give cap amount instead of recharge speed). You don't need to perma-run an XLSB on a Mael, you just need it to run long enough for you to melt everything with your AC's.

But if you're having problems with the Raven, Apoc and Abaddon then I would say you're either not ready for L4's skill-wise, or simply not doing it right. It's about more than just the ship type or fit. All of those ships you mention can run L4's no problem.
Raiko Osburn
Advanced Resource Acquisition and Exploration
#12 - 2012-11-09 12:20:37 UTC
Forget about autocannons if you have low skills. Also perma run shield booster on a battle ship? Bad!

Before you start using maelstrom, train mini BS to lvl 4 and skills required for standard core fitting certificate. Otherwise you will have trouble fitting it properly.

Once you have skills, go for 1200mm artillery guns. If you have low gunnery skills, autocannons will have short range and you will have to travel long distances to hit ships at 100km. With artillery you can easily hit targets at 80-90 km without loosing dps.

Fit XLSB and don't even try to perma run it. You will get something you dont need at all and you will sacrifice fitting slots you can use better.

This is standard maelstorm lvl 4 fit.

HIGH
8x 1200mm artilery

MEDIUM
XLSB
Shield boost amplifier
3 resist mods (1x invul and rest are mission specific resists)
Sensor booster OR tracking computer OR afterburner for few misson out there you need to travel a lot

LOW
3x gyro II
2x tracking enhancer

10x light scout drones
5x medium scout drones

This is the best you can get from maelstrom while you get better skills and train for marauders.

Forget numbers, play with ideas, look for solutions.

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#13 - 2012-11-09 15:44:56 UTC
My guess would be you have over looked one thing every level 4 mission runner needs. Drones! There are many fits that get a lot of extra DPS from drones. the rest need them to take out frigates and cruisers. large guns just do not kill frigs fast even if they can hit them. once they get under you guns they can cause big problems.

An 800MM AC Mael can melt most level 4 missions. I used one for ages and it did well even with low skills. As others have said, if you are trying to fit cap stable you are doing it wrong.

Fit an X-large shield booster. if you only spend the isk for one faction or dead space mod this should be it. Pair it with a shield boost amp and pulse the booster only when you need it. If you have problems with running out of cap while needing to boost more drop the boost amp for a cap booster. you can inject enough cap to almost perma run you X-large boost.

Next is you shield hardeners. Forget invulnerability Fields. Rat specific hardeners are all you need. Each rat type deals two damage types. With the exception of mercenaries, and Minmatar Faction ships. If you can get your rat specific resists to over 80% you need very little boost to keep up with incoming DPS.

DPS not only makes for a better tank, dead NPC's do no damage, but you will also benefit from faster completion times increasing your isk/hr. For get cap mods, a mission fit with cap mods is a fail fit. With the exception of a cap booster while you are still learning. Once you get the hang of it you can even drop that. Fit 2-3 gyros in your low slots. The added DPS gives you more benefit than any other module. However if your skills are low you may need some tracking mods. A fourth gyro adds nice damage but the stacking penalties get so bad you are better off fitting something else. Even a drone damage mod is a good choice. Or a power diagnostic or reactor control if you need help with the fitting due to low skills.

Fitting skills are the most important skills you can train. Any skill that affects power grid, capacitor, shield, or CPU you should get to 5 as soon as possible. this are low rank skills and only take a few days even taking them to 5. Weapon upgrades 5 and advanced weapon upgrades 4 is a must. these reduce the CPU and Power grid your guns use when fitted. Without them you will run out of CPU or power grid before you fit all the mods you need. These guns take a lot of CPU and power grid. these skills even at 5% and 2% per level will free up a lot CPU and Power grid you need for your tank.

You also want to get all your gunnery support skills to at least 4. There are several, perhaps you are missing some without even knowing it. they are;
-controlled bursts
-Motion prediction
-Rapid firing
-Sharp shooter
-Surgical strike
-Trajectory analysis
Even though gunnery 4 is the highest prerequisite for these you should also get that to 5 ASAP. Having all these skills trained to level 3 is better than having only a couple to 4 and missing the rest.

Every thing I have mentioned are very basic skills with low training times. But you do not need to wait until you have them all to run level 4 missions. But missions will get much easier once you do have them. When starting out only train skills to 4. the only skills you should take to 5 before getting all the basics to 3 or 4 are the ones you need for prerequisites for other skills. The ones you do need to 5 early are all rank 1 skills and only take a day or so to train to 5.

If you think spending 1 or 2 days training a skill to 5 seems long. Wait until later in the game when some skills take 30-60 days to train to 5. I believe some of the Titan skills take over 90 days to train from 4 to 5. But then again those ships also take 3 months to build.

You are new and EVE is an epic game. Do not try to rush into things before you are ready. You will just lose the expensive ships you worked so hard to get. Be patient and learn as much as you can about one ship class before moving on to the next. Battle ships are not better than frigates. they just fit different roles. a small group of frigates can easily take down an urber battleship as the battleship guns just can not hit them. If you do not believe me try running a level 2 or 3 mission in a battleship. they are easy to tank but you can't hit the small ships those missions are full of.
The Bionis
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-11-09 15:47:27 UTC
...Not counting Raiko's post, I'm kinda disappointed most posts were about the mid slots, although I will see, in time, when running missions with others, wether or not you guys are right. (The fit was not about any kind of capstability; it was intended to make sure i COULD cycle the booster when neccesary, but NOT at any other times. Another solution to this would be using an ASB).

Still, the real question is, AC's or arty? with AC's i will have less range, but more DPS, which, considering I DO have the range to reach most, if not all rats at their range (furthest I saw a rat orbit was 52k, while outside 1x falloff range, it SHOULD, to my knowledge, still be acceptably hit.) That, and any missions where rats come in much closer will be easier than with artillery, although I do admit that I love the awesome range on them. Even so, I am quite disappointed with the lower DPS, so I'm still not sure on what to decide...
The Bionis
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-11-09 15:49:48 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
My guess would be you have over looked one thing every level 4 mission runner needs. Drones! There are many fits that get a lot of extra DPS from drones. the rest need them to take out frigates and cruisers. large guns just do not kill frigs fast even if they can hit them. once they get under you guns they can cause big problems.

An 800MM AC Mael can melt most level 4 missions. I used one for ages and it did well even with low skills. As others have said, if you are trying to fit cap stable you are doing it wrong.

Fit an X-large shield booster. if you only spend the isk for one faction or dead space mod this should be it. Pair it with a shield boost amp and pulse the booster only when you need it. If you have problems with running out of cap while needing to boost more drop the boost amp for a cap booster. you can inject enough cap to almost perma run you X-large boost.

Next is you shield hardeners. Forget invulnerability Fields. Rat specific hardeners are all you need. Each rat type deals two damage types. With the exception of mercenaries, and Minmatar Faction ships. If you can get your rat specific resists to over 80% you need very little boost to keep up with incoming DPS.

DPS not only makes for a better tank, dead NPC's do no damage, but you will also benefit from faster completion times increasing your isk/hr. For get cap mods, a mission fit with cap mods is a fail fit. With the exception of a cap booster while you are still learning. Once you get the hang of it you can even drop that. Fit 2-3 gyros in your low slots. The added DPS gives you more benefit than any other module. However if your skills are low you may need some tracking mods. A fourth gyro adds nice damage but the stacking penalties get so bad you are better off fitting something else. Even a drone damage mod is a good choice. Or a power diagnostic or reactor control if you need help with the fitting due to low skills.

Fitting skills are the most important skills you can train. Any skill that affects power grid, capacitor, shield, or CPU you should get to 5 as soon as possible. this are low rank skills and only take a few days even taking them to 5. Weapon upgrades 5 and advanced weapon upgrades 4 is a must. these reduce the CPU and Power grid your guns use when fitted. Without them you will run out of CPU or power grid before you fit all the mods you need. These guns take a lot of CPU and power grid. these skills even at 5% and 2% per level will free up a lot CPU and Power grid you need for your tank.

You also want to get all your gunnery support skills to at least 4. There are several, perhaps you are missing some without even knowing it. they are;
-controlled bursts
-Motion prediction
-Rapid firing
-Sharp shooter
-Surgical strike
-Trajectory analysis
Even though gunnery 4 is the highest prerequisite for these you should also get that to 5 ASAP. Having all these skills trained to level 3 is better than having only a couple to 4 and missing the rest.

Every thing I have mentioned are very basic skills with low training times. But you do not need to wait until you have them all to run level 4 missions. But missions will get much easier once you do have them. When starting out only train skills to 4. the only skills you should take to 5 before getting all the basics to 3 or 4 are the ones you need for prerequisites for other skills. The ones you do need to 5 early are all rank 1 skills and only take a day or so to train to 5.

If you think spending 1 or 2 days training a skill to 5 seems long. Wait until later in the game when some skills take 30-60 days to train to 5. I believe some of the Titan skills take over 90 days to train from 4 to 5. But then again those ships also take 3 months to build.

You are new and EVE is an epic game. Do not try to rush into things before you are ready. You will just lose the expensive ships you worked so hard to get. Be patient and learn as much as you can about one ship class before moving on to the next. Battle ships are not better than frigates. they just fit different roles. a small group of frigates can easily take down an urber battleship as the battleship guns just can not hit them. If you do not believe me try running a level 2 or 3 mission in a battleship. they are easy to tank but you can't hit the small ships those missions are full of.


Oh, also, I want to mention again
I AM TALKING ABOUT MY MAIN, THIS IS AN ALT, an alt I made once for trading even, but I discarded it's use quickly :P
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#16 - 2012-11-09 16:01:59 UTC
Go with ACs, train supports at least to 4, train for t2, finish training of supports to 5, melt everything happily ever after.

Is that an answer you were looking for?

Invalid signature format

The Bionis
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-11-09 16:07:42 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Go with ACs, train supports at least to 4, train for t2, finish training of supports to 5, melt everything happily ever after.

Is that an answer you were looking for?


...Sounds about okay yeah xD
Aptenodytes
Reckless Abandon
#18 - 2012-11-09 16:08:58 UTC
The Bionis wrote:
Still, the real question is, AC's or arty?

The answer to that question depends on many factors, which is why we talked about mid slots and your skills. It is not a case of AC > arty in all cases. For some players and play styles AC > arty but for others arty> AC. For me it's AC all the way but then I fly a Mach and have many millions of skill points.
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#19 - 2012-11-09 19:33:07 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
MinefieldS wrote:
Don't listen to these noobs, it's really easy to make a perma-run XL shield booster on a freaking BATTLESHIP without sacrificing dps. Non-permanent repping will likely get you killed when you'll get the socket closed error.


Show us your cap stable perma XLSB running battulship fit then. Especially the one doing 800-900 dps and tanking 400-500 dps.



Kasutra wrote:
MinefieldS wrote:
Don't listen to these noobs, it's really easy to make a perma-run XL shield booster on a freaking BATTLESHIP without sacrificing dps. Non-permanent repping will likely get you killed when you'll get the socket closed error.

Fit or it didn't happen.


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32/maelg.jpg

T1 rigs, T2/T1 modules, T1 ammo, no implants. Can AB for 13 minutes or MWD for ~1.5 minutes. :P
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#20 - 2012-11-09 21:15:15 UTC
Oh yes, all blacked out fit, that seems legit. Now share price tag on that to leave us in complete awe.

Invalid signature format

12Next page