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Ok so really weird question but...

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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#61 - 2012-11-06 19:37:13 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:

Tear extraction is an interesting case, because while it is always directed at the person, it is also only effective if the target is a poor sport, i.e., if they reject EVE's social contract. I don't think it helps anything, to be honest, but to use a tabletop analogy, what do you do with the guy who bawls and pitches a huge fit because he got a bad roll and his character died?


There are boundaries to playing for tears. You cant personally hound an individual maliciously for prolonged harassment where no material gain is involved. If the tear collector is following the rules and getting an overly emotional victim, that's not really the fault of the aggressor. There is a question on when is it too much. Yet that has to be left up to individual cases.

For example, locking down a specific systems asteroid belts with bumping leaves room for the victims to pay or leave.
Yet following a specific player to every place he goes to just keep bumping them can be malicious.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#62 - 2012-11-06 20:11:22 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
I think the point is everyone deals with certain things differently, therefore where does CCP draw the line in the sand?

Just because something is deemed "ok" by CCP does not mean it "ok" to player X therefore whos line is correct? Is the customer always right? or is there something different?



As repeatedly mentioned: it's a competitive game. For every winner that means there has to be a loser. A customer who is unhappy that he lost has no particular claim for consideration so long as the rules were followed.

The rules are known: play by them.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2012-11-06 20:12:54 UTC
Somebody probably already said this, but the difference is a personal attack, like racism, versus a target of opportuniy, like a scam victim. Also, people can "learn" about game mechanics from a creative scam. Racial or personal attacks are based in hate.

So yes. Scamming someone nicely is okay. A personal attack or really bad social conduct, is simply not acceptable.

Having said that, I've seen really nasty, mean spirited verbal attacks in null sec local, i.e., the worst forms of trash talk. I've never reported anyone. It would be and interesting experiment and a test of this thread's main topic.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#64 - 2012-11-07 00:53:26 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:

Tear extraction is an interesting case, because while it is always directed at the person, it is also only effective if the target is a poor sport.

This is exactly the same argument used by many men to excuse sexual harassment. "You're upset? Stop being a poor sport! Lighten up!" But sexual harassment not acceptable, not even once. You do not have to follow the target around doing it multiple times before it becomes harassment.
Dersen Lowery wrote:

I don't think it helps anything, to be honest, but to use a tabletop analogy, what do you do with the guy who bawls and pitches a huge fit because he got a bad roll and his character died?

The dice did not intend to cause harm.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#65 - 2012-11-07 07:25:45 UTC
What do you do with the poker player who bawls and pitches a huge fit because one of the other players tricked him into thinking he had a flush, but actually had nothing and "forced" the victim to fold, thus losing the hand and his stake?

The other player certainly intended to 'cause harm' - our poor victim lost real money due to the deception.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
TriadSte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-11-07 08:41:21 UTC
Poker is a game of deception. It is expected, therefore ok. If you got tricked into thinking hes bluffing then thats all down to your own thoughts and instincts.

Eve is different and the reason why I made this topic. I believe Ive touched upon something where there is no clear answer.

If I called a Minmatar Brutor character a slop drinking N****A I would fully expect a CCP mail telling me "computer says no" do it again and Ill be banned.

Yet from what I've read in this topic that should be deemed as OK because Its character talking to character.

I think most would agree that is blatantly wrong.

I think what would be great for implementation within EVE is leave scamming as it is, yet give it a random factor of being caught and fined by Concord Police.

Lets take the PLEX scam......plex for money as well as a plex.

Concord police see this, reimburse the buyer what he paid for the plex and fine the scammer the cost of the contract isk asked for plex as well as plex or value of plex if plex isnt in cargo.

It would certainly....spice things up in Jita, see some scammers tears!!
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#67 - 2012-11-07 17:56:17 UTC
CCP only allows scamming because they figure it takes them too much effort to stop it.

If you think everything we do in eve is meaningless and there is no real loss, you are an idiot. What is lost is time, the most valuable thing a man has.

Why is stealing time from people fair but I can't call them names because that somehow falls into the catagory of "outside the game"? Ridiculous. The argument i'm hearing from CCP and some players is that stealing peoples real-life time is okay but its not okay to insult people in real life, even if they steal from you. That theft of time is just as real as any insults you hurl at them. Pretty borked logic i'd say and a poor defense for lack of anti-scammer support. CCP just doesn't want to spend the money to stop scammers. Their stance on verbal abuse is only a customary policy that is rarely enforced. I harass lifeless douche bags like pipa porto all the time and never get punished.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#68 - 2012-11-07 18:35:02 UTC
TriadSte wrote:

If I called a Minmatar Brutor character a slop drinking N****A I would fully expect a CCP mail telling me "computer says no" do it again and Ill be banned.

That term is not a term used as a pejorative against the Minmatar in EVE lore, or as a common use between players to specify a Minmatar person(now is it likely to be allowed to catch on, due to the real world connotation), but you can call them other things that refer directly to be descended from slave, because they are, just like you can get away with calling a gallente character hurtful things based on the Gallente tendency towards behavior that other empires consider immoral(sexual promiscuity).

Just make sure if you are calling someone something borderline based on that, you make it clear you are not calling the player that, but rather the character.

This character is Gallente, therefor it would not be attacking me to call him a ****, a whore, or pervert, even if it were to apply to me as a player and I got offended. Be careful tho, since thats an edge case Lol

I do feel that if you have to ask these questions, you need to steer clear of any situation where this might be relevant, as you don't have the experience or understanding of role play to avoid crossing the line.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Jeicam Mmis
BEEFCO.
#69 - 2012-11-07 18:47:13 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
[quote=Malcanis]

[... ] ganked his pride and joy Raven Navy Issue [...] nailed his pod and wrecked his high grade crystal set.




KM or it didn't happen :P
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#70 - 2012-11-07 19:07:38 UTC
In game actions are all well and good and if you are foolish enough to accept what is a plainly obvious rip-off then it just reflects on either your low-wit or inattentiveness. To then make very personal and real insults based on your anger (at your own mistake no less) is a big no-no. Keep it in-game and civil and try to separate reality from spaceship fun-time shenanigans.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-11-07 19:55:08 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
EVE permits every form of in-game villainy. But bringing in real life conflicts and bigotry is, as should be obvious, a no-no. In short: my character can do anything that he can get away with to your character (and vice-versa, of course). But there are very strict limits on what I can do to you. CCP's rules aren't there to make us play nice characters, only to be nice people.

The important distinction is that if I scam you out of everything in game, then you can escape the consequences of that by simply closing the client: Poof! Your losses - and my "crime" - are now as meaningless as losing a piece in a game of checkers. But I think you'll agree that anyone who started spewing racial epithets or making real life threats because he lost a piece in a game of checkers had failed to understand something very important about playing competitive games.


This is by far the best post I have EVER seen on these forums.

You sir, understand EVE to its black hearted, capitalist, dog eat dog core, with an awesome separation between in game and out of game actions.

I can only echo this post.

The thing is, that whether or not we admit to it, the beauty of EVE is that every single one of us is a roleplayer.

When you log in, you play the role of a Capsuleer, regardless of what your motives are. True, there is a distinction between those who simply play the game and those who choose to immerse themselves in EVE's setting and backstory, but the end result is the same.

We're all playing a role, and are fleshing out our own histories and storylines, whatever they may be.

Scamming, playing the con man, the pirate or rip off merchant are all parts of the sandbox game play that makes EVE stand out with such a rich and colourful history. Understanding that this is an IN GAME action and in no way reflects on the player behind the character is the first step to mentally surviving the morality black hole that is New Eden.

When you log in, you may type in your username and password with the hands of a Doctor, a Lawyer, a Soldier or a Cop, but once that little bar counts up and you click on your character's Avatar, the gloves are off and you're immersed in a hyper-capitalistic kill or be killed setting based thousands of years into our future.

Separating in game actions from a player's out of game persona is one of the most important things in EVE Online.

Back in the early days of being a player I can remember being ripped off by a real life friend for 8,000,000,000 ISK. This was back when 8 billion was more money than anyone knew what to do with. I was madder than hell until I logged out of the game. Then we met up at the pub, had a beer and laughed about it as old friends.

Years later when he thought he was clear, I betrayed his trust in return, ganked his pride and joy Raven Navy Issue and got best part of my money back in loot. To add to the sting, I nailed his pod and wrecked his high grade crystal set.

We still laugh about it to this day on the rare occasion we see each other given I now live in Iceland, but despite in game actions we've always been more than happy out of game to spot eachother a little cash if needed, or borrow eachother's cars.

I'll be a 10 year veteran of EVE on May 14th 2013. I've been to countless player gatherings, hosted more of them than I can honestly remember, and have had the pleasure of being an attendee at 6 Fanfests.

If there's one thing I've learned that's the most important thing in all those years after meeting quite literally thousands of EVE players, it's that the key to success in New Eden is making that divide between player and character, and understanding the social fabric of EVE's community.

No amount of skillpoints or ISK can compensate for that.

Can we get this stickied to the top of every forum and sub-forum? And maybe an automatic "2nd post" in every new post from now on in GD (especially if the topic involves "gank", "ganked", "ganking", "griefing", "scam", "scammed", "scamming", "scammer/s" and "hi-sec PVP")?

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
MastaKari
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-11-07 20:03:23 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Scams are fuelled by the greed and stupidity of the person being scammed, if you get scammed you have no one to blame but yourself as all the tools and information to avoid the scam are there for every player if they can be bothered to look for them.


^This

if you get scammed you deserve it, and the scammer deserves your isk/ships or whatever because you were either being greedy or stupid, or both!

scamming is fine, people who do it i wouldn't say are the lowest lifeforms they're just playing eve how they want it's a sandbox after all.
though the jita spam bots that are recycling scams for like 5 years ago well that's a different story.

and if you result to name calling to a degree of being racist or real life threats ect because you got scammed in aGAME then i suggest you stop playing and go outside or find something else that caters to your needs, like WoW(don't think they allow scamming) because you've obviously lost/missed the point of playing a game like eve.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-11-07 20:16:18 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
EVE permits every form of in-game villainy. But bringing in real life conflicts and bigotry is, as should be obvious, a no-no. In short: my character can do anything that he can get away with to your character (and vice-versa, of course). But there are very strict limits on what I can do to you. CCP's rules aren't there to make us play nice characters, only to be nice people.

The important distinction is that if I scam you out of everything in game, then you can escape the consequences of that by simply closing the client: Poof! Your losses - and my "crime" - are now as meaningless as losing a piece in a game of checkers. But I think you'll agree that anyone who started spewing racial epithets or making real life threats because he lost a piece in a game of checkers had failed to understand something very important about playing competitive games.


This is by far the best post I have EVER seen on these forums.

You sir, understand EVE to its black hearted, capitalist, dog eat dog core, with an awesome separation between in game and out of game actions.

I can only echo this post.

The thing is, that whether or not we admit to it, the beauty of EVE is that every single one of us is a roleplayer.

When you log in, you play the role of a Capsuleer, regardless of what your motives are. True, there is a distinction between those who simply play the game and those who choose to immerse themselves in EVE's setting and backstory, but the end result is the same.

We're all playing a role, and are fleshing out our own histories and storylines, whatever they may be.

Scamming, playing the con man, the pirate or rip off merchant are all parts of the sandbox game play that makes EVE stand out with such a rich and colourful history. Understanding that this is an IN GAME action and in no way reflects on the player behind the character is the first step to mentally surviving the morality black hole that is New Eden.

When you log in, you may type in your username and password with the hands of a Doctor, a Lawyer, a Soldier or a Cop, but once that little bar counts up and you click on your character's Avatar, the gloves are off and you're immersed in a hyper-capitalistic kill or be killed setting based thousands of years into our future.

Separating in game actions from a player's out of game persona is one of the most important things in EVE Online.

Back in the early days of being a player I can remember being ripped off by a real life friend for 8,000,000,000 ISK. This was back when 8 billion was more money than anyone knew what to do with. I was madder than hell until I logged out of the game. Then we met up at the pub, had a beer and laughed about it as old friends.

Years later when he thought he was clear, I betrayed his trust in return, ganked his pride and joy Raven Navy Issue and got best part of my money back in loot. To add to the sting, I nailed his pod and wrecked his high grade crystal set.

We still laugh about it to this day on the rare occasion we see each other given I now live in Iceland, but despite in game actions we've always been more than happy out of game to spot eachother a little cash if needed, or borrow eachother's cars.

I'll be a 10 year veteran of EVE on May 14th 2013. I've been to countless player gatherings, hosted more of them than I can honestly remember, and have had the pleasure of being an attendee at 6 Fanfests.

If there's one thing I've learned that's the most important thing in all those years after meeting quite literally thousands of EVE players, it's that the key to success in New Eden is making that divide between player and character, and understanding the social fabric of EVE's community.

No amount of skillpoints or ISK can compensate for that.

One of the best dev post/reply I've seen on this forums.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#74 - 2012-11-07 21:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Vincent Athena wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:

Tear extraction is an interesting case, because while it is always directed at the person, it is also only effective if the target is a poor sport.

This is exactly the same argument used by many men to excuse sexual harassment. "You're upset? Stop being a poor sport! Lighten up!" But sexual harassment not acceptable, not even once. You do not have to follow the target around doing it multiple times before it becomes harassment.


That's true. But then, what is PVP? Player vs. Player. Not toon vs. toon, or ship vs. ship, or sell order vs. sell order. The whole thrill of PVP is to pit yourself against another person. EvE is Everyone vs. Everyone.

Context matters, and so do consequences: The woman who gets sexually harassed on the street did not consent to harassment when she woke up that morning, nor when she left her apartment, but the player whose ship gets popped in EVE consented to that possibility when they undocked. Nobody and nothing forces anyone to log in to EVE. It's a game with a set of assumptions that make it the rugby of MMOs. If you want cooperative play and (mostly) good-sport PVP, Guild Wars 2 is awesome.

In situations, like reality, that have no EULA and that you can't log into or out of, the social contract is naturally more protective than in a game.

Vincent Athena wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:

I don't think it helps anything, to be honest, but to use a tabletop analogy, what do you do with the guy who bawls and pitches a huge fit because he got a bad roll and his character died?

The dice did not intend to cause harm.


No, but the GM is the final referee, and if the DM decides not to act to save the character, and the player is thin-skinned and emotionally invested in the character being a Great Hero Who Saves Us All(TM), then he won't take it well. That's a breach of the game contract as well; the GM isn't there to keep the PCs alive, and it's not anyone's fault but the complainer's if he thought he'd get a special exception.

If the game is Call of Cthulhu, character death is expected.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#75 - 2012-11-08 08:56:23 UTC
TriadSte wrote:
Poker is a game of deception. It is expected, therefore ok. If you got tricked into thinking hes bluffing then thats all down to your own thoughts and instincts.

Eve is different and the reason why I made this topic.


You're simply wrong about this. The source of your confusion is that your assumptions are incorrect. Deception at all levels is permitted, even encouraged in EVE. Need I remind you that CCP actually produced an advert for EVE promoting corp theft as a possible method of revenge?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#76 - 2012-11-08 09:24:53 UTC
TriadSte wrote:

Lets take the PLEX scam......plex for money as well as a plex.

Concord police see this, reimburse the buyer what he paid for the plex and fine the scammer the cost of the contract isk asked for plex as well as plex or value of plex if plex isnt in cargo.


So, if I "scam" myself with an alt I get refounded with money and new plexes? There's an huge scamming potential in your proposal, wowever I don't think scamming CCP is a great idea :)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#77 - 2012-11-08 10:24:47 UTC
hey I've got this great idea based on my completely not understanding EVE - CCP should reimburse me if I lose a ship because I attacked someone in a weaker ship but actually they were just baiting me because you see deception has no place in EVE so CCp should fine that guy the cost of replacing my ship and also give me a ******* cookie

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#78 - 2012-11-08 11:07:50 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

Back in the early days of being a player I can remember being ripped off by a real life friend for 8,000,000,000 ISK. This was back when 8 billion was more money than anyone knew what to do with. I was madder than hell until I logged out of the game. Then we met up at the pub, had a beer and laughed about it as old friends.



I'll be honest, I wouldn't take kindly to this.

If some stranger scammed me of 8 billion isk I'd be really mad. I'm not saying I'd go full racist bigot on them, but I'd be mad that all my hard work was taken away so easily, probably by a mistake I made myself (i.e. being daft enough to fall for the scam). However, we are talking about an internet stranger, if you never met someone and you trust them with the fruits of your work over 8 months for example you have only yourself to blame.

However if one of my friends I know in real life stole 8 months worth of work of me then laughed about it I'd be kinda annoyed at them. Mainly because I suspect the only reason they'd be able to do that is by abusing the trust I give them in real life. With the stranger you have no reason to trust them other than, as you rightly explained, their online persona/character. However if you trust them in real life and they are a long time friend, that trust is what they;d be abusing by stealing from you.

Not saying it's then ok to go full blown racist bigot on them, or even that it's against the rules of the game (it's not) but I'd reassess my friendship if someone is going to abuse that to simply get an advantage in a game (especially since if they needed the isk they could have asked and I'd have lent them it).

The difference is, of course, if both of you have reached an understanding where you accept this is ok to do BEFORE hand. So if my friend and I were like "OK, in EVE anything goes ok?" you that 8 billion theft was a response to your 4 bil theft, which was a response to his 1 bil theft, which was a response to his 500mil theft etc. where you two have been doing it for ages and it's just escalated.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#79 - 2012-11-08 15:29:14 UTC
rodyas wrote:
CCP is just here to make money really.

Racism and sexism hurts the brand and the game image, makes less money from it. Ganking could as well, but CCP likes to have fun as well. Just got to wait till CCP can make enough money from not ganking to equal out the fun they get form ganking. Problem solved.

Asia has too many people, so tons of money there, be a very long time, till CCP allows racism in the game.



Have you considered maybe that CCP just don't want racist abuse on their forums or in their game? Or is money the only motivation you can think of?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#80 - 2012-11-08 16:55:45 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:

Tear extraction is an interesting case, because while it is always directed at the person, it is also only effective if the target is a poor sport.

This is exactly the same argument used by many men to excuse sexual harassment. "You're upset? Stop being a poor sport! Lighten up!" But sexual harassment not acceptable, not even once. You do not have to follow the target around doing it multiple times before it becomes harassment.


That's true. But then, what is PVP? Player vs. Player. Not toon vs. toon, or ship vs. ship, or sell order vs. sell order. The whole thrill of PVP is to pit yourself against another person. EvE is Everyone vs. Everyone.

Context matters, and so do consequences: The woman who gets sexually harassed on the street did not consent to harassment when she woke up that morning, nor when she left her apartment, but the player whose ship gets popped in EVE consented to that possibility when they undocked. Nobody and nothing forces anyone to log in to EVE. It's a game with a set of assumptions that make it the rugby of MMOs. If you want cooperative play and (mostly) good-sport PVP, Guild Wars 2 is awesome.

In situations, like reality, that have no EULA and that you can't log into or out of, the social contract is naturally more protective than in a game.

Vincent Athena wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:

I don't think it helps anything, to be honest, but to use a tabletop analogy, what do you do with the guy who bawls and pitches a huge fit because he got a bad roll and his character died?

The dice did not intend to cause harm.


No, but the GM is the final referee, and if the DM decides not to act to save the character, and the player is thin-skinned and emotionally invested in the character being a Great Hero Who Saves Us All(TM), then he won't take it well. That's a breach of the game contract as well; the GM isn't there to keep the PCs alive, and it's not anyone's fault but the complainer's if he thought he'd get a special exception.

If the game is Call of Cthulhu, character death is expected.


And insanity.

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