Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Since you put it like that I have to agree with you.

I forgot to add additional drone bay capacity to the bandwidth. With the slight reduction in EHP to compensate the Speed/Utility features, the idea was to have a Stabber that has the Falloff Range and medium drones that are fast enough to keep up with the Stabber. Granted, Valkyries have a base speed of some 2km/s.

But just a reminder, my post was related to the discussion above regarding "More drones for ships/stabber".

Yes, 425mm + Barrage punishes tracking, but that is the point of balance. The thing is that Stabber shouldn't be that much of a brawler as the Rupture is clearly the one for such a task.

A lot of ships have more than enough drones and I just find if somebody considers adding drones to Stabber, then also apply a drone specific buff. Yes, Drone Speed does not mean damage, but things go on like how people are complaining about, every ship will end up being the same - minus the hull-chassis porn.

Not to forget that that 5m³ drone is not quite much of a help. There may be heroic warstories of that single drone back then, but if it can be dropped for something else cool, I'd say go for it. Same for the RoF ship bonus. I know it is for raising Base DPS, but it would be cool to see a different bonus. Again, that Drone Speed bonus of course only makes sense if there is something like a 40m³ drone bay - as a no-brainer wills it.


But being blunt about drones, the Thorax, Vexor and Celestis should clearly be drone kings. I'd almost dare say a seperate, third bonus for the drones alone, to really show that Gallente have the overhand when it comes to drones.
This would require the other 3 factions to have something as well - but that is wishful thinking and off topic.

Against all that I said though, it is true that there will still be an issue.
Unless there is some sort of "permanent damage model" or other viable stuff in that direction, it won't be easy for the stabber to leave a scratch on opponents.

I for one welcome the Falloff bonus, but many do use the Stabber as a "heavy tackler" or a mini-Vagabond. That said, it is hard to actually figure a decent way so that one does not say "it does terrible dmg, won't kill a fly" without somebody else screaming on the other side.

I see it as a Light Cruiser. It is the backbone of the minmatar fleet. Your obvious stormtrooper/imperial guardsman/zergl-- well, hydralisk maybe; whatever it may seem, it is not supposed to be a "fast Rupture", so it should not just be able to fly fast and blow things up easily easier. After all, it has been mostly used as a heavy tackler.

I made some calculation for the stabber :
First, the important numbers :

0,25*falloff = dps*0,95
0,5*falloff = dps*0,8
0,75*falloff = dps*0,6
falloff = dps*0,4
2HML = 50dps
5 valkyries = 125dps@3000m/s
5 hammerheads = 155dps@2100/s
5 hobgobelins = 100dps@4200m/s

Fit are Alara's Thorax vs 220mm+2HML stabber (2gyro/1TE and 1gyro/2TE) vs 425mm stabber (2gyro/1TE and 1gyro/2TE).

Now, the numbers :
stab220+2HML = 218@17km (EMP)
= 226@18km (barrage)
2TE = 236@15km (EMP)
= 200@21km (barrage)
stab425 = 175@18km (EMP)
= 186@19km (barrage)
2TE = 195@16km (EMP)
= 195@14km (barrage)
= 155@24km (barrage)
kitythorax = 219@18km (null sans drones)
= 292@15km (null sans drones)
= 146@22km (null sans drones)

---

Best stabber fit in this matchup is 220mm+HML/2TE. The Thorax is saved by its drones. Without them, it's pretty even and if the stabber stay at 20km, he can win. With lower damage drones (light drones/valkyries) the ammo damage type and ehp could make the difference.

Notice however that the stabber have its speed advantage : he can decide whether to take the fight or not and can disengage at will unless he is fully tackled (not by this thorax).

Thoug, such performances from a Thorax are a bit disturbing.

Anyway, if the Stabber lack something, it's very not by a lot IMO. Engagement choice is still a powerful ability.

So in this perfect storm of a fight with room to kite and wherein you have an experienced pilot with proper fitting skills. He might do okay against this thorax fit that has no friends in range to help it as the stabber slowly whittle it down all the while staying in point range and fending off drones. I won't argue that it can't be done. But unless CCP want stabbers to be flown only by vets that are too poor to buy a proper vagabond they may want to make some changes to it.

No we are speaking about a close range armor blaster boat being better at shield kiting then a purpose build shield kiter while still retaining the ability to project firepower at close range.


Perhaps because kiting is its main play style while the other Cruisers have other play styles. Now if the speed margin becomes too large they should lessen it a bit.


Same things that kill Vagabond's which even with the buffs people have been proposing the Stabber won't be near as good as the Vagabond. Vagabond's has 5 Turrets, 2 DPS bonuses, 5 Drones, fitting for a Medium Neut, 12.5% longer falloff bonus, it's resist holes are naturally plugged, it moves slightly faster and has an extra slot / better fitting. The reactionary response to the Stabber being buffed has been just silly.

Giving the Stabber 5 Drones will not break EVE Online. Alternative to Drone neither would a slight buff in its gun bonus break EVE Online. It will however leave the game with a good usable ship.

That Kiting Rax fit will run into Cap issues faster than the Stabber.

Against a target going 2400 M/s Hammers won't do any damage, and Valks will do barely any. Max DPS will be achieved by Hobos.

You're also comparing it against a bad Stabber fit: it is the most cap intensive non-neuting fit, least able to do DPS against high-speed targets. This fit is a more realistic comparison: 25.4K EHP vs 20Kish for the 425 Stabber and 19Kish for the posted Neutron Shield Rax. (Aside, personnaly I'd fit a CDFE instead of the Poly. The Shield Rax is fast enough, and 1K+ EHP is nothing to sneeze at).

[Stabber, Kiter]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Light Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Using EFT @20Km I got 209 DPS for my Stabber, 235 for a 425/HAM Stabber and 293 for a Neutron/Hobo Rax. It's cap will also run for 1:58 (29 Seconds longer than the 425/HAM fit, and 32 Secs longer than that Rax).

With the extra EHP vs the extra DPS it'll be a close fight; and the extra cap stability and capless weapons of the Stabber may make it come out in their favour. (Against the 425/HAM fit - all other things being equal - you pretty well always win).

But that doesn't change the essential facts: in deep falloff a Shield Rax competes with a Stabber and can project decent DPS. Which means against targets which are not Stabbers, that Rax is probably better.

The reason the Rax does so well at that range is it's drones: they account for all of the Rax's DPS advantage. Give the Stabber 3-4 Drones and it will out-DPS a Shield-kiting Rax at about 18-20Km. It can afford to lose about 20m/s base speed (it's about 170m/s under MWD). Almost everybody will happily lose this speed for a Done-bay that at least competes with a Moa (or better yet 20m3). Alternatively you could add a 5th Turret slot: but this only solves the DPS problem at the expense of the Stabber's character.

Importantly, it sill leaves it as the fastest T1 Cruiser with only the Shield-Rax, Bellicose and the Scythe anywhere close. (Technically the Exequror is as well... but Shield Exeq seems unlikely).

BTW - I'm christening this change 20m/s for 20m3.

What, an Amarr ship can work with only 3 mids.. who knew?

Wow, why change the crusiers at all if half of them are going to be not worth flying like before?

I am bad and pressed quote instead of edit

You make it so that an AB Attack Cruiser is never considered.

Buffing the base Cap by 10% or so would have much the same effect (better Cap stability / mitigate fitting an MWD) but would benefit AB fit ships as much as MWD fit ones.