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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#861 - 2012-11-06 23:24:43 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
Because let's face it: Those launcher slots on the hurricane, rupture and stabber never have been utilized and never will.


Indeed, I have never used launcher slots on my hurricane, well once, but the dps added was barely worth it when you can fit better utility.

Give the stabber another turret slot and get rid of those abysmal launcher slots.
Gangname Style
Doomheim
#862 - 2012-11-06 23:37:47 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Just tell me if I'm doing this wrong:

[NEW Stabber, New stabber]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

2435m/s, 20.4k ehp, 285 dps.

What's wrong with the new stabber again?


Keep in mind that in falloff your dps won't be anything near that already low 285.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#863 - 2012-11-06 23:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Jason Sirober wrote:
Just tell me if I'm doing this wrong:

[NEW Stabber, New stabber]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

2435m/s, 20.4k ehp, 285 dps.

What's wrong with the new stabber again?

Well I just tried to EFT that, and it was over on CPU.

But if you meta the MWD, you can drop the RCU and put a nano/overdrive in place of it. Also, I'm getting more DPS than you (294).

[NEW Stabber, test]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

24k EHP, 2739m/s, 294DPS so around 166 at 20km (assuming your target is flying at you, which either they will be doing, or they'll be running away trying to escape you).

I personally agree that the DPS of the stabber is... low at that range, but it has a surprisingly substantial tank, so after weakening the target from a range until they realized they couldn't win, you can burn in to finish them, as your DPS with RF EMP at 5km is 304. Still low, I know.

I'm in favor of a small buff to damage... not sure if I'm in favor of a fifth turret. That might add too much damage. Maybe change the ROF bonus to 7.5%. If that's not enough, try it with 5 turrets and the 5% bonus again. Keep messing around with it like that until it's in a good place


Edit: AHH, screw it. Just thought about it and that small adjustment to the bonus is only an increase of 12.5% to turret DPS. So Turret DPS would go up from ~220 with Barrage to ~242 (still around half that at 20km), and the EMP damage would only go from 278 to ~300. Another turret would help, because they get more DPS than the missiles, what with the Gyros on there.
Alara IonStorm
#864 - 2012-11-06 23:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Jason Sirober wrote:

2435m/s, 20.4k ehp, 285 dps.

About 200 actual DPS with falloff provided perfect tracking.
Jason Sirober wrote:

Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile

RCU instead of tracking enhancer further decreases your actual DPS and using HAM's and 220mm instead of RLML and 425mm you get 20 DPS but lose all anti frigate capability and significant gun range which mean more damage lost in falloff.
Jason Sirober wrote:

What's wrong with the new stabber again?

270-290 kiting DPS is a joke for a Cruiser before you realize that number is complete and utter paper and not representative of what ill be done.

Around 350ish Paper 300ish actual at Kite range making it around 450 close range ammo would be close to useable and significantly below the Vegabond and SFI current before buffs. If they have to drop the speed a little fine but a little fine because more DPS is the only way this featherweight is going to see serious use.

What is more this thing is going into the hands of the lower skilled where you are talking max skill. It could use some wiggle room.
Gangname Style
Doomheim
#865 - 2012-11-06 23:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gangname Style
confirming stabber DPS is pathetic and disgustingly low.

buff the DPS considerably please.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#866 - 2012-11-07 00:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Sirober
What I was Trying to get at here is that you can't expect it to be kiting king AND have lots of DPS... something has to give.

Yes change a missile to a turret. Also in order to fit a tank on any of the other cruisers you have to drop your guns to the smaller ones otherwise you have 14k ehp. Otherwise remove tank and then you can fit 425mm...I do think however it should get 50-100 more PG maybe even more.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#867 - 2012-11-07 00:14:25 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

Well I just tried to EFT that, and it was over on CPU.

But if you meta the MWD, you can drop the RCU and put a nano/overdrive in place of it. Also, I'm getting more DPS than you (294).

[NEW Stabber, test]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

24k EHP, 2739m/s, 294DPS so around 166 at 20km (assuming your target is flying at you, which either they will be doing, or they'll be running away trying to escape you).

I personally agree that the DPS of the stabber is... low at that range, but it has a surprisingly substantial tank, so after weakening the target from a range until they realized they couldn't win, you can burn in to finish them, as your DPS with RF EMP at 5km is 304. Still low, I know.

I'm in favor of a small buff to damage... not sure if I'm in favor of a fifth turret. That might add too much damage. Maybe change the ROF bonus to 7.5%. If that's not enough, try it with 5 turrets and the 5% bonus again. Keep messing around with it like that until it's in a good place


Edit: AHH, screw it. Just thought about it and that small adjustment to the bonus is only an increase of 12.5% to turret DPS. So Turret DPS would go up from ~220 with Barrage to ~242 (still around half that at 20km), and the EMP damage would only go from 278 to ~300. Another turret would help, because they get more DPS than the missiles, what with the Gyros on there.

Check again on the CPU mate, it fits. Confirmed dps at 285. Also you dont seem concerned with CAP issues...no cap = no kill
Gangname Style
Doomheim
#868 - 2012-11-07 00:25:24 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
What I was Trying to get at here is that you can't expect it to be kiting king AND have lots of DPS... something has to give.

Yes change a missile to a turret. Also in order to fit a tank on any of the other cruisers you have to drop your guns to the smaller ones otherwise you have 14k ehp. Otherwise remove tank and then you can fit 425mm...I do think however it should get 50-100 more PG maybe even more.


you can't be a kiting king if you don't do any damage.


Kiting is all about being fast and doing good damage at range.

The stabber only goes fast.




And I thought that the new cruisers were going to be useful :(
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#869 - 2012-11-07 00:32:34 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

Well I just tried to EFT that, and it was over on CPU.

But if you meta the MWD, you can drop the RCU and put a nano/overdrive in place of it. Also, I'm getting more DPS than you (294).

[NEW Stabber, test]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile
NEW Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

24k EHP, 2739m/s, 294DPS so around 166 at 20km (assuming your target is flying at you, which either they will be doing, or they'll be running away trying to escape you).

I personally agree that the DPS of the stabber is... low at that range, but it has a surprisingly substantial tank, so after weakening the target from a range until they realized they couldn't win, you can burn in to finish them, as your DPS with RF EMP at 5km is 304. Still low, I know.

I'm in favor of a small buff to damage... not sure if I'm in favor of a fifth turret. That might add too much damage. Maybe change the ROF bonus to 7.5%. If that's not enough, try it with 5 turrets and the 5% bonus again. Keep messing around with it like that until it's in a good place


Edit: AHH, screw it. Just thought about it and that small adjustment to the bonus is only an increase of 12.5% to turret DPS. So Turret DPS would go up from ~220 with Barrage to ~242 (still around half that at 20km), and the EMP damage would only go from 278 to ~300. Another turret would help, because they get more DPS than the missiles, what with the Gyros on there.

Check again on the CPU mate, it fits. Confirmed dps at 285. Also you dont seem concerned with CAP issues...no cap = no kill

Ah, I messed that up. Thought it was a reactor control unit, not a CPR.
Also, you have plenty of cap without the cap mods. 1m24s of cap with everything running without any of the cap mods. Just pulse the MWD (run yours when they're running theirs) and you'll only run out of cap when they do. Also, you can turn off the invuln if they aren't bothering to shoot at you, giving you 1m48s without cap mods/rigs. If they're shooting at you then odds are either that they're the same exact ship, and so the greater tank from the shield rigs will help you out more, or their guns use cap and they'll run out of cap faster than you running the invuln.

And I'm still getting 294 DPS with 4 220mm's with Barrage, 2 HAM's with CN Inferno and 2 gyros on all level 5.

I just don't think it's worth it to use cap mods in PvP versus fitting more tank or damage. Maybe the CPR in the low, but definitely not the rigs.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#870 - 2012-11-07 08:49:50 UTC
Gangname Style wrote:
you can't be a kiting king if you don't do any damage.


Kiting is all about being fast and doing good damage at range.

The stabber only goes fast.




And I thought that the new cruisers were going to be useful :(

Projecting a lot of damage and being the fastest is often considered OP. Kiting never projected so much damage.

With barrage+ 2 gyro/1TE + 2HML, the stabber will project 225dps at 18km.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#871 - 2012-11-07 12:39:11 UTC
AC kiting doing very little actual damage is nothing new. Hopefully it will be stopped altogether with a TE and projectile nerf.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#872 - 2012-11-07 12:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Sirober
Goldensaver wrote:
[
Ah, I messed that up. Thought it was a reactor control unit, not a CPR.
Also, you have plenty of cap without the cap mods. 1m24s of cap with everything running without any of the cap mods. Just pulse the MWD (run yours when they're running theirs) and you'll only run out of cap when they do. Also, you can turn off the invuln if they aren't bothering to shoot at you, giving you 1m48s without cap mods/rigs. If they're shooting at you then odds are either that they're the same exact ship, and so the greater tank from the shield rigs will help you out more, or their guns use cap and they'll run out of cap faster than you running the invuln.

And I'm still getting 294 DPS with 4 220mm's with Barrage, 2 HAM's with CN Inferno and 2 gyros on all level 5.

I just don't think it's worth it to use cap mods in PvP versus fitting more tank or damage. Maybe the CPR in the low, but definitely not the rigs.

Ok If you put it that way then yes I see why you won't need cap mods.
+1 to you

EDIT: I still think the Stabber could get 50-100 more PG though
Gangname Style
Doomheim
#873 - 2012-11-07 13:09:11 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Gangname Style wrote:
you can't be a kiting king if you don't do any damage.


Kiting is all about being fast and doing good damage at range.

The stabber only goes fast.




And I thought that the new cruisers were going to be useful :(

Projecting a lot of damage and being the fastest is often considered OP. Kiting never projected so much damage.

With barrage+ 2 gyro/1TE + 2HML, the stabber will project 225dps at 18km.


Any missile boat or even a thorax will make short work of that ship.

Esp since blasters are now wtfrange with null.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#874 - 2012-11-07 15:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Sirober
Gangname Style wrote:

Any missile boat or even a thorax will make short work of that ship.

Esp since blasters are now wtfrange with null.


Please do post a 18km Null-toting blaster fit Thorax. I'm dying to see that.

Best I could come up with is 27dps at 18km with heavy ion II's...Roll
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#875 - 2012-11-07 15:37:38 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:
Gangname Style wrote:

Any missile boat or even a thorax will make short work of that ship.

Esp since blasters are now wtfrange with null.


Please do post a 18km Null-toting blaster fit Thorax. I'm dying to see that.


Yay for alliance bro post.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#876 - 2012-11-07 15:39:37 UTC
Looking at the numbers I would not be against giving the stabber 25m3 drone bay or 5% ROF to launchers
Alara IonStorm
#877 - 2012-11-07 15:50:06 UTC
Jason Sirober wrote:

Please do post a 18km Null-toting blaster fit Thorax. I'm dying to see that.

Best I could come up with is 27dps at 18km with heavy ion II's...Roll

[Thorax, Null Kite]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

It does more DPS at 18km then the Stabber with Warriors and ECM Drones. Much more if you use Valk's or Hammers which you don't seem apposed to because you HAM's on your ship.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#878 - 2012-11-07 15:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
I'd say changing the 5% bonus to a 7.5% bonus is the best idea, and instead of a dronebay, I'm thinking move 1 high to a low, with some increased fitting, too much?

Edit//
I ran some (crappy) numbers to see how this will play out:
If you put a gyro in the extra low slot (doesn't even need much fitting help) you'd get 350dps with RF EMP point blank and 200 dps @ 24km with Barrage. With excellent speed and around 16k EHP AND a TD. However Caracals will roflstomp over Stabbers unless TD changes come in, though the Stabber pilot will just run/not engage.

Fit something like this 3% implant (once again, crappy numbers, and assumptions of more CPU)

[Stabber, New Stabber (Gyro + TD)]

Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Script

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I

I didn't include rough speed numbers cause I'm bad at math and don't want to deal with that.
Jason Sirober
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#879 - 2012-11-07 16:14:38 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

[Thorax, Null Kite]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

It does more DPS at 18km then the Stabber with Warriors and ECM Drones. Much more if you use Valk's or Hammers which you don't seem apposed to because you HAM's on your ship.

Nice fit. You skimped a bit on your tank though. Aslo please tell me how you envisage kiting a much faster ship than yourself?
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#880 - 2012-11-07 16:22:21 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Jason Sirober wrote:

Please do post a 18km Null-toting blaster fit Thorax. I'm dying to see that.

Best I could come up with is 27dps at 18km with heavy ion II's...Roll

[Thorax, Null Kite]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

It does more DPS at 18km then the Stabber with Warriors and ECM Drones. Much more if you use Valk's or Hammers which you don't seem apposed to because you HAM's on your ship.


Yeah but it is pretty low on EHP, I'd say close to my proposed Stabber fit which admittedly has less dps at 18km, but it starts to even out more at 24km, and with the TD in the mix it's no challenge. Also speed advantage and drone dps can be easily taken out.

This is all from very rough numbers though, feel free to correct me.